Big_John_10

If carew had squared the ball or the ref had given us that pen then the game would have been done by HT.

Not saying the performance in the 2nd half was great and everything was fine but losing didn't just come down to poor tactics and formation from the manager.

You may be right, i'm a huge MON fan but i've never believed we wouldn't be able to bring another quality manager in.

The thing is if we go down the route of just changing managers every few years i think we need to fall lucky enough to bring in a wonder manager that big teams don't want or someone who has the ability to find real gems or attract big names in the transfer market.

There are of course positives for replacing the manager in like i said someone great may come in but then the downside is that we may continue to slump as the new manager builds his squad and that time may have seen us slowly build even more with consistent top 6 finishes.

It's a tough call and one i really don't know which would bring more effective results.

I think that thinking is a hang up from Ellis days to be honest, when after 3-4 years, managers would normally get tired of working with him, and he'd stop funding them.

Lerner is a totally different kettle of fish, He's shown no sign in reducing his financial commitment to Villa, yet I have to say that I don't think O'Neill is providing value for his money. If we continue in this mediocre vein, you have to say how on earth is O'Neill going to provide the impetus to get us into the top 4? He either can't or won't bring top players in, and that won't change with another 6th/7th placed finish if we're miles behind the top 4.

We'd be better in that situation looking for a new manager who just may have the ideas to take us on that extra step. It's always a risk of course, but Lerner is no Mike Ashley, and I can't ever see him making a hash of things.

I'm in agreement that there has to be a point where a new approach is required, i guess the difference is that i haven't reached the point where i fully believe MON won't be able to take us further.

I think expecting to beat West Ham, Wolves or Wigan when you've spent the money we have, and with our manager saying he wanted to challenge for 4th place isn't asking much.

But surely, based on the money we've spent, we shouldn't be finishing top 4. There are probably 5 or so teams that've spent more money than we have in recent years. So surely 6th place is about best we can hope for going by this logic.

Missed this the first time round but agree with it.

Surely in the same argument you can't demand to beat teams because we've spent more than them and demand to finish higher than teams who have spent more than us.

If money is the deciding factor then we can't expect top 4 football.

Even if we had no real competition from other teams and it was just us and the top 4 i think it would be too much to expect us to be in there. But when you take into account that everton have finished 5th the last 2 years and the things that spurs and man city are doing i don't think anyone could realisticly demand that we break into that top 4 this year.

We'd all like to be there but it's an extremely difficult thing to do. Is th best approach to get rid of the manager every few years when it looks like we won't do it or should we try and continue to sustain a top 6 position and european football in the hope that we can gradually attract better players? I'm not sure myself.

You have to give a manager a reasonable amount of time and resources to prove he can build a team and get it to compete with the best. I think O'Neill's had the money, and at the end of this season will have had four full years.

If he has improved us at the end of the season and at least given the top 4 and the cup competitions a real go, then I'd say he's earned the right to carry on.

If on the other hand, the sort of football that we played tonight, and against Everton, Blackburn, Wolves and Wigan becomes the norm, and we finish 7th or lower, then I really do think it will be time to thank him for rescuing us from the mess O'Leary left, but to give somebody else a shot at bringing back the glory years.

You may be right, i'm a huge MON fan but i've never believed we wouldn't be able to bring another quality manager in.

The thing is if we go down the route of just changing managers every few years i think we need to fall lucky enough to bring in a wonder manager that big teams don't want or someone who has the ability to find real gems or attract big names in the transfer market.

There are of course positives for replacing the manager in like i said someone great may come in but then the downside is that we may continue to slump as the new manager builds his squad and that time may have seen us slowly build even more with consistent top 6 finishes.

It's a tough call and one i really don't know which would bring more effective results.

Even if we had no real competition from other teams and it was just us and the top 4 i think it would be too much to expect us to be in there. But when you take into account that everton have finished 5th the last 2 years and the things that spurs and man city are doing i don't think anyone could realisticly demand that we break into that top 4 this year.

We'd all like to be there but it's an extremely difficult thing to do. Is th best approach to get rid of the manager every few years when it looks like we won't do it or should we try and continue to sustain a top 6 position and european football in the hope that we can gradually attract better players? I'm not sure myself.

I think expecting to beat West Ham, Wolves or Wigan when you've spent the money we have, and with our manager saying he wanted to challenge for 4th place isn't asking much.

I don't really get this.

I mean man u, chelsea, arsenal and liverpool have had poor results this season and they've spent more than we could dream of over the years and have very experienced managers.

We should expect certain improvements but no team wins all the games the fans think they should.

I think expecting top 4 at this point in the randy era is probably too much regardless of who the manager is.

Can MON take us further? No idea really, we are still an inconsistent team who seem to be able to match the top teams but completely throw games away against so called lesser teams. I think it would take more money and for us to be a more attractive option to players in order for us to break the top 4.

Good first half performance ruined by what looked like a poor referee decision. Couldn't watch the 2nd half thanks to crappy internet but it sounded like we were shit as soon as we scored, also how have we not got someone who can consistently score pens?

Things have gone a bit stale the last few games i think some changes need to be made. I think he fonz deserves to have a start and maybe give delph anoher chance. I know we lost the 2 games with delph and petrov but you wouldn't just give a new strike partnership 2 games to show form.

Very poor result, we need to make up for it by winning the next 2 games and getting something out of spurs.

Gabby is the in form striker so i would have liked to have seen him stay upfront but then having him on the right might be more effective than him upfront and NRC or Albrighton out there.

Strange one with beye i can only assume young isn't fit or ready yet, but then why is he on the bench?

And I can't believe we aren't playing 5 in the middle, they'll just walk through Petrov and the invisible man.

Reading the west ham forums they seem to think noble has been poor for some time and teams have been killing their midfield using width which may be why gabby has been put out wide. I don't think we should be so quick to write off our midfield.

The overal quality of the Premiership is poor at the moment with the probable exception of Arsenal, who are playing some great football. Even Man U are playing poorly

So most teams are playing poorly and even one of the best teams in the world yet we should demand that villa play brilliant every single game.

I don't see where i have stated that Villa should play well in every game :shock: .

I guess it's your way of trying to start another argument 'Big_John_10' so i'll just let you talk on and make even more of a fool of yourself than you normally do!

You think you can manage a premiership team and i'm the fool? You want people to debate so i'm asking, you've pointed out that a lot of teams are playing poorly including one of the best teams in the world so why do you expect villa to perform brilliant so much? The premier league is a hard league and there are many competitive teams in the league who on their day can cause any other teams problems, this isn't a league where you can win and play well week in week out.

The overal quality of the Premiership is poor at the moment with the probable exception of Arsenal, who are playing some great football. Even Man U are playing poorly

So most teams are playing poorly and even one of the best teams in the world yet we should demand that villa play brilliant every single game.

A good chance to pick up all 3 points today, i think we will be able to handle their attack and have a bit too much for them to handle, haven't been impressed with distin so far and i think gabby will cause him loads of problems.

Carew to get a goal and kick start his season.

Our manager has in large, bought midfielders who are grafters, rather than technically gifted midfielders that we need to be successful

I don't think you can describe young, downing, delph, milner and petrov as just grafters.

You mention that we don't play football the right way, surely football is all about results and you play to get the right result. The fact we have finished 6th the last 2 seasons and are looking to challenge the top 4 again would suggest we do play football the right way.

Young has been playing poorly for some time now, actually coinciding with him being doubled teamed. At the moment, he has no answers.

Milner and Petrov haven't shown me one piece of play yet which has got me off my seat, asking how did they do that?

Downing hasn't played for Villa yet, so lets see how he does.

Delph however, was one of my transfer window picks and will be a excellent player for us, when he is put into the right formation to suit him. I actually think Delph in time will become our new midfield enforcer when Reo-Coker leaves!

Young has been poor recently, doesn't mean he was signed as a grafter which was your point.

Milner and petov might not do wow things like ronaldo but they've shown they have technical ability and are not just grafters.

You don't have to have seen downing play in a villa shirt to know he is more than just a grafter.

Have we been playing well this season?

Will we get to 4th playing well all season or playing badly?

We haven't been playing well all season, we've been very good in some games, average in some and poor in some. The rest of the teams challenging for that 4th spot have been the same so i certainly don't see us out the running from what i've seen this season from us and the likes of arsenal, liverpool, man city, spurs and everton.

Are we going to carry on scoring so little when teams figure out how to stop us scoring....dont give away a set piece!?

Last season didn't you keep going on about to stop villa all you have to do is stop young? Now it's don't give away set pieces, maybe we aren't as one dimensional as some try to make out.

Our manager has in large, bought midfielders who are grafters, rather than technically gifted midfielders that we need to be successful

I don't think you can describe young, downing, delph, milner and petrov as just grafters.

You mention that we don't play football the right way, surely football is all about results and you play to get the right result. The fact we have finished 6th the last 2 seasons and are looking to challenge the top 4 again would suggest we do play football the right way.

Only listened on the radio but it did sound like another poor performance from the front six. Sounds like they were set up poorly though by MON, certainly for the first half, with Jimmy pushed inside and Gab out wide.

I think Gabby is the only one of our strikers, except maybe the Fonz, who can play up top on his own. Heskey needs a second striker playing off him.

Would have liked to have seen Delph come on for a striker and make it 4-5-1. Give him a chance for a bit of marauding. Not sure either of the big men are adding a lot at the minute.

Congrats to Guzan and the two CBs.

Aren't you usually complaining that MON isn't flexible and won't try different things?

Or are you just annoyed that he won't do the things that you want?

guzan you legend!!! Sounded like warnock messed up

Not very confident with pen takers we'd have.

Think we may need guzan to save us if it goes to pens.

Its not like MON will rotate for Saturday.

Meaning fooked players for a tough away game.

MON loves the squad rotation!

We have a strong side out, why on earth would you not want him to play our best team against everton?

Love the way the commentators thought young was struggling, they clearly don't watch him much and aren't used to him limping around whenever he has been tackled.

What really annoys me about this post and a number of Big John's is that you are both saying that none of us can express an opinion that is different to MON's without being arrogant and deluded.

You have pointed out every single tactical mistake you think MON has made after every game and claimed that without those mistakes villa would be top of the league. If that's not you thinking you know better than i don't know what is. There is no point having a debate because you think you know more than the currnet manager and that's crazy talk.

I completely disagree with this Big John. I think what you are describing there is known as complacency. To only discuss faults when things are going well, and you are maybe getting that bit of luck, means that you will not be prepared for when you do hit a bit of a blip or the faults start to become more prevalent causing a downward trend in performances.

You are aware that you aren't in charge of aston villa don't you? Complaining about every little tactical decision on the internet is not going to prepare the team, no one from aston villa football club is looking for tactical advice from VT.

Forgive me because, as you have pointed out on several occasions, I am no premier league manager but I have to agree with TRO and say a healthy debate on our failings is really interesting from my perspective. I hope that MON, Robertson et all are also having the same debates internally and striving for solutions. Only a fool buries their head in the sand and does not consider weaknesses (or opportunities for improvement if you want to put a more positive spin on this).

Yes i hope the people in charge are discussing issues and i believe that's something they will do all the time. How can you have a healthy debate with people who truly believe they could do better? You've done nothing but point out tactical faults that MON has done in every single game, even games we've won and you've stated that without those mistakes villa could be top of the league. How can you debate with someone who thinks they could lead villa to top of the league?

I firmly believe most people of a reasonable depth of football knowledge could get Villa to do their best to try to beat these poor teams

This is what i'm talking about, how can you debate with this?

There surely has to be times, when you can have decent debate about our short comings without having to defend yourself as some radical subversive hell bent on bringing down a great institution.

Surely the time to discuss the manager going and all our problems is when things are going badly and we aren't meeting expectations. At the moment we are a bit inconsistent like most teams in the prem and certainly like all the teams we will be challenging a top 4 spot with.

You seem to want to talk about our short comings after every single game regardless of the performance or the result.

becuase people are entitled to form their own opinion...

i personally dont share their opinions, but they are allowed to have them...

I understand that, i just think it's a real shame that the main villa forum is full of so much negativity and has been for some time.

SNIIIIIPPPP

When do we get to sit back and enjoy being a villa fan?

For someone who is supposedly against negativity, you probably do more moaning on here than everybody else put together. Any slight hint that a poster isn't 100% happy with everything at the club, and you stamp your little feet like a spolit four year old who didn't win a rosette at pony club.

So a bit like yourself with the manager whenever we don't win or if he doesn't sign the players you want quick enough?

What a terrible fan i must be, i mean being negative about people who do nothing but moan about the club i support, i don't know how i'll sleep tonight.

I'm not worried, like i said the people who pay there money aren't going to turn on the manager.

I just don't see why some want him gone because so far this season every game hasn't gone perfect.

After you pulled out one of these retarded 'I'm a better fan than you as I pay money to go to games' comment, I asked you if you were there on Sat? Obviously you must have been there seeing as you're such a great supporter and as we all know spending money on following your team and supporting the manager is completely intrinsically linked.

I was there, and guess what? I paid for it! BUT WAIT, I'm not behind the manager for reasons already disclosed.

ZOMG!!! It seems that I am able to hold an opinion different to yours whilst still paying money to my club.

I told you it wasn't an i'm a better fan than you comment, if you choose to ignore that there isn't much i can do.

My point is that the board are not going to listen to a small group of fans moaning on the internet about the manager when the fans that pay their money are singing his name week in week out. You're correct that there probably are some who want him out who go to games and well done for that but again like the people on the internet no one is going to listen to you because quite clearly the majority of villa supporters who travel home and away disagree.

The fans attending games are the ones who can put pressure on the board, nothing to do with being a better fan.

When did it become such a struggle to support a team challenging for a champions league place? When did it become so miserable to support a team that can compete with any other team on their day? When do we get to sit back and enjoy being a villa fan?

In all fairness BJ you can sit back whenever you want and enjoy being a Villa fan.

I honestly couldn't be happier with the progress we have made in the last 3 years under Lerner and O'Neill. Nowhere near everything has gone perfectly but considering where we were when they arrived I think to ask for anymore is at best unrealistic and at worst deluded.

I suggest you don't take other peoples opposing opinions to heart and if anything do what you suggested - sit back and enjoy being a Villa fan and pity those that can't.

I do get plenty of enjoyment going watching villa. I guess you're right, i should just ignore the negativity and sit back safe in the knowledge that I will get what i want and the ones who want him out are going to have quite a wait on their hands.

Like i said i just think it's a shame that the main villa forum is full of so much negativity.

becuase people are entitled to form their own opinion...

i personally dont share their opinions, but they are allowed to have them...

I understand that, i just think it's a real shame that the main villa forum is full of so much negativity and has been for some time.

All through the summer we had to read how useless the manager was and how he wouldn't be able to build a squad and because he left it so late to replace laursen we'd end up over paying for average players yet we end up with collins and dunne.

We had to read how we'd be lucky to finish top 8 and man city and spurs would leave us trailing behind but we're close to all the teams we're fighting with for that top 4 spot.

And even in our good position at the moment all this site is full of is negativity.

Our top scorer for the last 2 years and cult hero is now shit/lazy and should be benched but his england international replacement is shit and should be sold.

The pfa young player of the year is shit and should be dropped, sidwell isn't good enough and petrov has the worse stamina in the premier league, milner works hard but isn't creative enough. And we have a manager who makes too many tactical mistakes and doesn't know how to use substitutions. I mean how shit must the premier league be if we are where we are with all these problems and issues?

When did it become such a struggle to support a team challenging for a champions league place? When did it become so miserable to support a team that can compete with any other team on their day? When do we get to sit back and enjoy being a villa fan?