Awol

The banks, the big business lobby groups, all of the political parties, the vast majority of MP's and the Lords and the broadcast media were all pro-Remain. That's the establishment. Not sure how that's controversial at all, but it's certainly not dishonest. If that poll from YouGov yesterday is remotely accurate (and I'd be surprised if it is) then many solidly Labour seats in the Midlands and the North are going to the Conservatives and their pro-Brexit campaign. You mentioned "the working man", but those are stereotypical "working man" seats, and they voted Leave. Is that also a dishonest thing to say?

Yes, the establishment were vehemently pro-Leave, weren't they? Also, I thought we'd all agreed about 10 years ago that the rolling-eyes thing was a bit sh*t?

I genuinely have no idea what the beef is, but whatever floats your boat mate.

Darren, I don't presume that you agree with anything, ever. I was acknowledging your previous reply - which confirmed the NCA told the Electoral Commission to do-one, in so many words.

Oh they were guilty, alright. Guilty of winning a referendum against the establishment. Both sides were fined for breaching spending limits (though Grimes was later cleared in court) and as Snowy said, the Old Bill hoofed out allegations against Banks before getting to court because there was no case to answer. Edit: I forgot that after the referendum Priti Patel presented a dossier of the Remain campaign's overspending activities to the Electoral Commission and they refused to even look at it, but you know, they're fair, impartial and all that...

Ha, I didn't even know postal voting fraud was actually a thing in the US? From memory I think it was '04 or '05 when six(6!) Labour Councillors in our very own Aston were nabbed for harvesting postal votes from constituents and filling them in? As I remember they set up in a warehouse to do it, not exactly a kitchen table type effort! I definitely recall that after the shambles of voter fraud and intimidation at polling stations in Tower Hamlets 2015, the government commissioned a review into tackling electoral fraud, because the idea about voter identification at polling stations was one of the recommendations, in addition to clamping down on postal vote harvesting by activists (one wonders why the Labour government didn't address it after the situation in Aston was exposed, but I'm sure they had their reasons.) Point is Labour's people (politicians, activists, supporters) have form for it, and over an extended period. Not a nice thing to admit if that's the team you (not you specifically, of course) support, but there it is.

The Labour postal vote fraud gang in Peterborough were convicted and jailed by the criminal courts, not a bunch of retired Remainer politicians. Glad we’re agreed on the electoral commission, though!

The electoral commission is entirely partisan, thoroughly discredited by the spurious allegations it made against individuals on the Leave side of the referendum. Aaron Banks, Darren Grimes and Leave.EU we’re all cleared in court of false allegations made by the commission. It’s an establishment staffed quango with zero credibility.

A quick google reveals the dozens of articles addressing it in different constituencies and across many elections. The most recent example was the Peterborough by-Election, where Labour had a guy working on their local campaign who had previously been jailed for organising postal vote fraud, in the same constituency, on behalf of Labour. The authorities shy away from it where they can because it puts the whole system into disrepute.

Agreed. The poll doesn’t account for Labour’s not-so-secret weapon, massive postal vote fraud.

Those were the days, going down the NAAFI for furious debates about climate change and predatory capitalism... I’m on a third stint at Uni and drowning in leftie gibberish about intersectionality, not right-wing economic theory. Btw, my preferred pronouns are He/Hee (currently identify as Michael Jackson).

So they were words removed too. What about inviting terrorists from said organisation to parliament 2 weeks after the Brighton bombing? Actions of a future PM, or an ally of the IRA?

Not really, only a cold assessment of the facts. The world isn’t going to bend to Greta Thunberg’s will. The UK can’t fix it alone, however noble the ambition. That being the case we need to invest hugely in both domestic mitigation and tech’ development. The wider British-Jewish community clearly aren’t buying that. Given the fact he didn’t tighten up Labour’s approach to anti-Semitism until this summer, I don’t blame them.

Johnson is a racist t**t and has written things as a journalist that would earn him a smack in the chops outside his rarified social circle. No doubt. Corbyn not only voted against the Anglo-Irish Agreement, but two weeks after the IRA attempted to murder the British government in Brighton (killing 5, injuring 34) he invited two convicted IRA terrorists to Westminster - gloating, not ‘peacemaking’. You may disagree, but I don’t think they’re comparable levels of fuckwittery for someone aiming to be PM of the UK - and one of them will win.

Actually I think we could do something unilaterally. The government, on the basis that your analysis is broadly correct, could reprise a Manhattan type project to crack clean energy production. Then give it away. Of course we won’t, but we could. If nothing else it would give @HanoiVillan something to be proud of!

That’s the kind of self-loathing that gets me out of bed in the morning. Love it.

What, you reckon China, currently ‘re-educating’ the God impulse out of a million+ Muslim citizens, is going to take a moral lead from the UK? That’s exactly the kind of magical thinking in our domestic debate I was talking about.

Bit of secondary picketing by the Hindu Council (following the CoE lead earlier) in support of the Jews.

The part you’ve quoted simply lays out the facts approximately in terms of current emissions data, and questions the false narrative being pedaled in the UK. My argument (that we should be doing more, but aligning our actions with achievable goals) is the part you ignored, for whatever reason. I’d love to hear suggestions other than new technology for limiting the rapid emissions growth of China, India and the Middle East, though. Do you have any?

Of course that's right, but the slightly weird (even a little conceited) part of this debate is that somehow stopping global warming is within the gift of the UK, or even of Europe for that matter. Global emissions growth since 2008 breaks down as roughly 50% China, 20% India, 20% MENA and 10% other. Europe and N America is basically zero growth. The UK accounts for 1.2% of total emissions, a rounding error in global terms, yet people talk earnestly about doing X,Y or Z and thus saving the planet. The fact young people seem to be encouraged to believe this is even more pernicious. I'm not suggesting we do nothing, but the answer (if there's to be one in the global context) has got to come from technology because wind turbines and loft insulation won't save the planet. We (or the government) should also be investing far more in plan B scenarios to mitigate the effects of changing climate, like dredging rivers properly, developing new strains of crops that can survive inundation and drought better, improving water storage and general infrastructure modernisation to make the UK more resilient. The next 50 years of climate change is baked in regardless, but the political focus is on silver bullet solutions that can't work without a total shift in global coordination - while reality gallops in the opposite direction.

Survation Poll 2018

"Hi, is this the Equality and Human Rights Commission? Oh good, can you wrap up the investigation into Labour's anti-Semitism now, please? Why? Alexei Sayle says it's absurd. Great, ta ta."

No, if you attack British Jews (verbally of otherwise) on the basis of their faith, you're an anti-Semite.

I think this gets to the heart of things, if unintentionally. British people who happen to be Jewish are being conflated with Jewish extremists in Israel by an element within Labour. It's not dissimilar to British people who happen to be Muslim being conflated with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Those guilty of the latter are rightly called bigots, whereas those guilty of doing the same to British Jews identify themselves as 'Progressives.' They might need to reflect on that.

“Smears” means they’re not true. Mainstream Labour MPs on TV this morning expressing regret that the party didn’t get on top of it more quickly torpedoes that defence. As for not “cutting through”, isn’t that another way of saying “don’t worry, we’re getting away with it”?