Sie

Ever wondered how that 15 year old kid is taking it when you gank his character 15 times in a row? Well, now you do

Oddly enough there is truth in Sion's words. Melodrama aside, throwing in the towel on WoW does make you realise just how much time you've been pissing away on it and how much of your 'normal' life you've been neglecting. It borders on unhealthy. In saying that though, Vanguard does sound incredibly good....

I too will not be renewing my subscription. As much as I still enjoy the game, I've got far too much stuff to be getting on with.

Yep, all correct. For Rogues, it's something like 29.5agi per 1% (approx) and I currently average out at about 20-23% crit chance per session.

Zul Gurub with Perfect Dark X is a painful experience.

Just to clairfy for you Nayson if you're not sure why that rogue vanished out your CoA. DoTs do not prevent rogues from vanishing, the damage tick associated with a DoT simply brings us back out of stealth so we can't stay invisible when they are on us. A well played rogue can often vanish and reopen with a CS (or if he can position fast enough, an ambush) between ticks (2 second window). Only things like Faerie Fire physically prevent us from even entering stealth.

Ken found out!!?

Tarj, I played the "I've played it longer" card simply because you played the rather personal "brick wall" card. When a player is 60, they do not necessarily know the game or their class. They can certainly have a very good idea but there is always much more to learn. Level 60 makes people ignorant of this as they think 60 = seen it all, done it all. Bollocks and the more you play, the more you realise this. ZG, MC, BWL and the rest are irrelevent as we're talking about PvP. Not instances. Plus, why bring that up - you haven't done them either. No, killing the first boss doesn't count as I have done that too. Once again, you are confusing rank with killing players and thinking they are the strongest link to honour gain in a BG. They are not. Rank and THE BG OBJECTIVE are what net you all that honour. Do you seriously think that all that honour you gain in an AV battle is your own doing? Is it shite. I could stand in the middle of a zerg in AV doing nothing at all and my honour would still climb because the people around me would doing the work for me. If you really want to get honour and fast, play lots of AB ad you'll get more honour per week there than you will leaching someone else's effort in AV. I mean, have you actually looked at the numbers regarding honour? You get LOADS more honour completing the BG objectives than you ever will killing players. It is why after people get exhaulted in AV for their PvP gear, they hightail it outta there to do quicker, more farm efficient AB rounds for their rank. The WoW community can be found on the internet or more specifically, the wow forums. Knowing them on a personal level is not required to know their opinions - simply read the forums and discover this all for yourself. My reference to them clearly a generalisation and resorting to pedantry to counter this argument is just wooly thinking. Infact, I give you, based on your own theory, The most skilled player on his server....even he clearly states that PvP RANK is a **** rat race for status, epics and good for **** all else. It is all about puttting the time in. And you finish by saying "And BG battling DOES give each and everyone experience in handling pvp." Sure, a BG does gives you some experience (but not as much as you could gain by dueling lots more). It's the rank that doesnt. To draw a comparison, its like saying the more instance epics you have means you are a better player than someone with less instances epics. And I'm done with this. Like I said earlier. Agree or disagree. Getting personal is just poor form.

No, you're not talking to a wall, you're talking to someone who has been playing the game longer than you and disagrees; someone who provided valid evidence you've seemingly ignored completely. Yes, you have learned countless stuff in a BG. You're clearly going to because it is time spent on the game. Thing is, you'd have learned it outside a BG too just fighting alliance in the open world without gaining rank. Sure, you won't get half as much honour but then that is exactly the point I am getting at. Honour (aka Rank) and skill are NOT connected. You can pretend they are all you like, they are not and never will be in the current PvP system. Honour is a measure of time spent hanging around in a BG. End of Story. If you don't agree, go ask the WoW community. Regarding duelling. Yes, I will see people with high ranks but ask yourself this. Why do you think they are still dueling and not in a BG? The reason? They got their high rank from mass honour farming in order to gain Epic Items. These people do not raid and so this is their alternative. They stick to duelling to learn their PvP craft. The evidence is there in front of you and hell, even you yourself just pointed it out without seemingly realising. They gather their class skill from these duels which is why they continue to do them. They then discuss the battle afterwards, trade info on what cooldowns were used, what moves the opponent used. Good ways to counter etc etc. I would like to see you try this in a 40 AV battle. It is why Ming, who is a very skilled high level player, wrote a dueling guide and not a "Here is how to zerg a palladin with 14 other players in AV" guide. To say they are connected would equally mean that anyone with a low rank should be shite at PvP. We know this not to be the case. In summary. Player skill and Rank may climb together but they are not related even if this fact does belittle the achievements of some. This is the essense of what I am saying. Agree or disagree. Simple.

Yeah, I'd rather be dead than Calista Flockhart too.

Presenting true theorycraft (Dan, give this a look) This is what it means to really know your class and how to defeat others. BTW, Ming is a bit of a WoW celebrity in that he is the co creator of the 21/8/22 Rogue build. Dueling is about strategy, knowing your oponent, thinking outside the box in order to counter situations where other players would panic. It is ALL to do with theorycraft and not your ability to "play Playstation". To think dueling in WoW is anything like Tekken on a PS2 is to admit you've not a gamer nor understand it. This is the hidden depth I was on about that most WoW players never discover in WoW - like I said, when you think you know your class, the rugged is pulled from underneath your feet. I should point out too that this is only about PvP. Instance strategy is a totally different bag altogether - I'm strictly refering to PvP.

I'm up for a UBRS run tonight.

Methinks you are kidding yourself. You do actually get to know the strengths and weaknesses of your character when you play PvP. If you do believe people with high ranks, have gained little experience within PvP battling... well then i would call you naiv. Ofc. there are exeptions, but if you fight high ranked players, in duels or whatever, you will see they know what they are doing. You could call me anything you like Tarj. Haven't you even read the concerns about the current system? It is universally acknowledged it doesn't reward skill, this isn't just my own opinion. Have you even read the countless documention from Rank 14 players who openly admit that they obtained the rank not by skill, but the fact they spent 14 hours a day in there. They state that the final hurdle wasn't even about winning anymore, it was about arranging for your teammates to let YOU capture the flag, YOU capture all the bases, YOU capturing all the graveyards. They basically have to rely on other people giving up their chance for honour so you can take it. Ranks are gained from mass honour farming which does not require skill - this is a fact. Look at Zdex on our server. He was a High Worlord for a week and it is commonly said he's not a great PvPer. Now, I'm not saying there is no correlation between rank and skill but I am saying the relationship between the two is a lot more tenuous than you currently think. Another good example would be the fact I've beaten the reknowned Ally Rogue Toxica who is a Rank 14 player in a BG. Was this due to me dominating him in a fight? No, it was the fact I had 3 other people with me and we caved his skull in. Skill? I think not. Did I get a win and honour for it? Yes. Now as for getting to know your strengths and weakness. I can guarantee you 100%, and even Nayson will back me up on this, you get to know a SHITLOAD more about both your class and the others by dueling then discussing. Not spamming your abilities on anyone who comes near you in a 40 AV raid then labelling it "skill". Learning your class has nothing to do with rank or BGs - you simply have to play the game and research the community and classes outside the game in forums. Sure, in a BG you will pick things up as you go but you'll learn even more reading a forum then putting it into practice in dueling. Equally, you learn things outside the BGs. I'm not trying to knock your achievements Tarj if that is what you think and have no doubts about you ability as a PvP player. What I am simply saying is that a High PvP Rank means this - "I've been in the BGs longer than you" and nothing more. Rant over. Shutting down...

Well, even at this stage, I think it's fair to say you got your moneys worth.

Cn i have ur epixx and gold plzzzz??? for mi epixz mounttzz!!!1111 /mourn

Thats not true. I have ofc. spent more time in the BG, but spending time in PvP BG's makes you know your own race better. Im much more skilled in PvP now, simply because of the experience you get from BG's. You learn your weakness and strength, and you learn it the hard way And the equipment bonuses are very good too. I'm afraid it is true Tarj. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. The gain rank for getting honour, not "knowing your race". You get honour in a BG for losing, for other people's kills, for winning. You get honour regardless of what you do. You can stand there doing **** all and get honour. That is why the term BG farming popped up. It's why you come across people with high ranks who are absolutely shite at PvP. You see, the "PvP" in a BG isn't skillful at all - it is known as zerging. My 7 players can kill your 1 player. My 1000+ shadowbolt can kill Warriors with ease (that is a warrior who only has 146 life left from the other 6 players beating on him and doesn't know I'm standing there). The best, and I mean best, PvP players are the duelers. The only tue measure of a players PvP skill is their ability to fight one on one from a fair start and dominate. In a duel, it is a game of class strategy and really knowing your opponent. If you really want to show your PvP worth, the arena to do it is just outside Orgrimmar gates...

Risso is on the money though. The killing blow stat is not a measure of player skill. Simply means what its name says - you got the last hit. Just like Rank in WoW is not a measure of player skill, just means you've spent more time in the BGs. The death stat is bollocks too for the same reason. As a result, people get caught up in these stats and the group effort goes out the window to be replaced by people reluctant to fight for fear of death, people refusing to fight until a target is almost dead so they can ninja a killing blow, people not fighting at all and just stealing honour points and PvP loot. This is why so many people think the current PvP system is shite (and it is) and also why Blizzard are going to be overhauling it in the future.

Count me in for that Nayson....for the obvious reason, Scholo gets my vote. And Risso, don't worry about it. It happened to all of us as there seemed to be an instance server crash. I alt tabbed out, restarted the game then had to log in twice and it was fixed. We didn't bother filling your space (second Druid didn't return either) and pissed it anyway. No Shadowcraft though....

Mechanical Yeti ftw!

That build is good for spoiling the fun of groups in Stranglethorn Vale too. I came across a 36 Rogue, a 35 Priest and a 37 Hunter (with 37 bear) ganking Horde. I killed them all, including the bear, in less than 6 seconds. Felt big, laughed and left.

Here is my current build Dan. It isn't an easy build to play and requires a lot more variation with how you approach different classes. However, the effort you put in to mastering it pays off in the end. No more relying on a stunlock combo and it also allows you to fight multiple opponents at once )with Blade Fury activated). 5 point evis on two opponents at once? Yes please...

Let us not forget one of the bigger nerfs warriors received (the normalisation on weapons) didn't just affect your class. It affected all melee classes. We all got hit by it. As for Mr Level 60 Warrior. The reason he now hits like he does is because anything he hit 3 patches ago died instantly. Now for Mr Lvl 14. The Honour system in WoW does not and never has rewarded player skill, it rewards time spent in BGs. Your rank is no indication of your skill level in WoW. He is having problems because his class has been balanced and he refuses to lower his standards. He doesn't want to accept that he can no longer piss on things at will. This is the reason Warriors were dubbed "Rogues in plate". No other class in the game ever became an unstoppable killing machine when they wore full Epics - Warriors on the other hand did. They had insane armour AND insane damage. One had to be pulled back to balance the situation and as such, they had their damage output attenuated as it would be backwards to nerf their armour. This pissed all the warriors off as they now had to work for their kills. This exact situation about warriors is the EXACT same situation with Rogues back in the earlier times of WoW. Rogues were unstopable killing machines and they were nerfed because of it. This pissed all the Rogues off as they refused to lower their standards as they didn't consider themselves overpowered to begin with despite the fact they **** well were. Fastforward to now and only the badly played arsehole rogues have a problem with their damage output because the rest of us have adapted and seen the light. This is what will happen to Warriors too. Currently, your idea on balance is an imbalance to 8 other classes.

No, what I said is that the general concensus is that Warriors seem to on a level playing field once they have Epic gear (I would agree with this). This guy had Epic gear and was still struggling against most classes, which just seems to point to the fact even with Epic gear there are still shortfallings amongst certain players. I actually do ok in PvP, and once Epics are gained all round I reckon I will so lots of dmg, BUT and this is my original point re.Rissos post, to ask for one of our most effective moves (Hamstring) to have diminishing returns just because its used well against Shammies is wrong. Its like me asking for all sap/disorientate/gouge effects to be taken off Rogues as they **** me for 20-30 seconds, It bothers me while its happening BUT its part of the game and part of the Rogues armour. I just want balance! You said "We (warriors) are by far the WORST class for PvP until we get Epics in every slot" meaning you have no problem with Epic equiped Warrior play. You then produced a list from some random "PvP level 14" player documenting how Epic equipped Warriors don't cut it. As a result, exactly what you are getting at is kind of muddied. That guy struggling against other classes doesn't point out any facts at all as the entire thing is based on circumstance. This is what we're trying to say but you've done a hop, skip and a jump over this. In that Warrior duel list we have no indication of how good a player he is, what his build is, what tactics he is using. Nor do we have any info on how good the people he is fighting are, what their exact builds are, what tactics they are using. Basically, he could be losing because he is shit... Anyway, as for Hamstring. So long as the cooldown is longer than the effect, I don't think it needs diminishing returns. Rogues have diminishing returns but then we have a few more slowing/stunning based abilities so we can mix it up (they're on separate timers). With this in mind, I would like to point out why that warrior had such a hard time against a combat rogue. Every other build for rogues is about nipping in, big burst damage, nipping out, locking up, in and out, in and out, shake it all about. These rogues hate hamstring and rend as its stops them doing this. Combat rogues are totally dfifferent - we want to be toe to toe just like warrior. In your face with big swords, laughing at your hamstring because we're not going to be running away - you are! Vanish? Piss off...how dare you insult me! A combat rogue with AR, BF and a 5 point SnD all activated is a **** killing machine. The warrior becomes a cloth wearer. Stick an Evasion and expose armour on that and you can hit us with overpower all you like - I'll just disarm you with riposte and continue to beat the living shit out of you. Now, a stunlock rogue can only dream of doing that. Once a stunlock rogue has done his combo and hit his burst damage, his dps drops to almost nothing. This is when poorly played rogue resorts to running about madly hitting backstab and/or the vanish key. Hamstring and rend and he is reduced to panic. By the way Sion, do you mouse look when you fight?

Oh for **** sake. This again? By the way Sion, that list contradicts your original statement. You said Warriors are shit until they get epics and that list is refering to a Warrior with epics. Additionally, the part in bold about that Warrior fighting "cheesy builds" is bullshit. For example, he's only highlighting a combat specced rogue in his argument... Also don't lose perspective on the fact that list is simply the opinion of another player who will have his own tactics and not confirmation of anything. I've had my eyes opened a number of times in how to fight certain classes with different methods (exposing armour on a priest!, opening on a Mage with improved kick!). Try some new and unusual tactics yourself, you might be surprised (as will your opponent). The nerfing is because Warriors at high level play had sure fire ways of killing stuff just from overpowering them with certain attack combos. The nerfs stopped these unfair tactics from being as effective but stubborn warriors refuse to expore new tactics. They just continue using the old ones, refusing to accept the fact they're not as effective and instead claim they are underpowered. Rogues did exactly the same thing when they were nerfed. This is a problem with WoW in that players get so into their own class, they become entirely ignorant of the other 8, completely lose perspective on the whole picture and just start holding up the "my class is shit, fix it" card. Their arguments to back up their cases are alway, ALWAYS, incredibly selective of the facts; be it on purpose or simply due to class ignorance. There are just too many factors in PvP to ever think a list of "How I get beat by [insert class]" will back up an argument. Up until my most recent respec (Combat), I avoided Warriors like the plague as they could kick my arse. Now that I'm combat , I can stand toe to toe with them but it means I have a much harder job against other classes now. In summary, build is the hidden factor which most class imbalance arguments negate to mention and yet is one of the most important factors.

Well, my time away from the game has got me thinking about not returning to it at all. Along with my music production and a few other developments over the past few days, I just don't think I'll have the time for it anymore. And I'm not sure I want it to hook me and pull me back in either...