Con

The nightmare began when he was subbed. Our attacking structure fell apart. We were good in the first half. Conceded from a set piece in the second. Bannan was subbed. Team disintegrated. Trying way too hard to pin the blame on Bannan for this result. Conversely, I don't think it necessarily was Bannan who was integral to the team playing well in the first half. It's Bannan's role in the system. In the first half Bannan was used. Not enough, but the team did pass through the midfield well at times. You could have stuck Westwood in Bannan's position and had a similarly good first half. So I'm not giving all the credit to Bannan for the first half performance in the slightest. It was the system, we played through our midfield.

He's now showing that potential to anyone willing to step away from their bias and look at the statistics. Which costly mistakes - not picking up a marker at a corner we concede from? The criticisms of Bannan are the bad joke. It's the truth. Look at the statistics.

Nonsense. We fell apart after half time. We conceded. Then Bannan was brought on. Yet he hasn't been responsible for any of the goals we have conceded recently. Or even at all this season, except the penalty vs Man City.

Yes, Bannan has gone beyond potential. He is actually the best crosser in the Premier League.

This you doing statistical analysis. You are adding up the number of goals he is scoring, comparing them to how many other strikers score, and concluding because he scores more he's better. Ah, well I can say that Van Persie is rubbish. Your stupid goals per game statistic doesn't mean shit. Obviously I don't believe that because I believe statistics are useful. That is an assertion that I am attempting to debunk with statistics. You are reasserting this claim without referring to new statistics or a reinterpretation of my own statistics... so I do not want to change my mind to your view. Yes I watch games.

Yes I agree - except about the ratio being irrelevant. Still has to get the cross on target. When Westwood occasionally takes the corners - e.g. assist for goal against Reading - they are stood up just like Bannan often takes them. The manager must be saying to them, "just stand it up for Benteke, he'll get it every time". That may be right, but as you say, it may not be easiest for Benteke to score every time from this sort of ball.

... not AMC. Delph is DM© Ireland is listed M (CR), Bannan M (CLR) Holman and N'Zogbia are AM (CLR) Yes, I agree the team needs its "Alex Song". Everyone knows this. It's not even a matter of debate. Nobody claims Bannan can fill the Alex Song role http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/24

Absolutely. The great thing about the three of them is they provide variation. Bannan is great at crossing. Delph keeps the passing neat. Westwood's an all-rounder. They could all get into another Premiership squad higher up the table, if not the first XI (please refer to individual player threads to debate my opinion on this). What they need is, like you say, a strong, experienced, defensive capable midfielder to play with - and the defenders to pass the ball to them.

Swansea's Leon Britton has little defending skill. He's smaller than Bannan. He's a lot older and more experienced than Bannan and has less responsibility (doesn't take set pieces) so can just focus on his passing game.

You are amazed? What does Leon Britton do at Swansea? Bannan is not exactly the same type of player but not all effective CMs win headers, tackle, create assists, get forward. As for assists Bannan would have had a bucket load if it wasn't for poor finishing. He has a good key pass rate. That's the role Ireland is paid his wage to do. You are creating a strawman argument that is easily defeated. I'm not saying we should build a team around Bannan. The top teams aren't built around certain players because of large squads and rotation. I know we all want one hero - a Steven Gerrard like character - but that is dreamland. Just because Bannan isn't that type of player doesn't mean he should be vilified. Good enough in the eyes of successive managers to deserve 80 appearances.

99% time the manager tells the player how to take the corners. They are worked at on the training ground. Everyone who's played football knows that. If Bannan is taking them the wrong way, the manager should intervene and tell him to take it a different way. I don't believe Bannan is simply defying instructions. We know Bannan is capable of the whipped in, fizzing cross. He did a few in the first leg against Bradford.

Statistics don't have to lie, politicians give them a bad name. If statistics always lied you wouldn't know Van Persie was an awesome striker. It is ridiculous to rubbish statistics because they are statistics. How do you know that is not an unfounded bias? Do statistics say we are "out-thought" in midfield? No. They show we don't have enough possession, which is primarily the fault of the defence for hogging the ball and then kicking it nowhere. The two are linked. The defence does its own thing. It lacks discipline. This affects our defending and our attacks.

The percentage accuracy statistic contains the information for giveaways. CMs rarely go 1-on-1. Air-balls are less important in the midfield. Bannan is not a defensive midfielder. His best position is as a deep lying playmaker. We all know we need a defensive midfielder in the team. You can't blame Bannan for not being one.

When we say 'he' we are referring not just to Bannan but to a midfielder. I don't care if it is Bannan, Westwood, Delph, El Ahmadi and yes maybe even Ireland. Okay not Ireland. The platform of our attacks should be our midfield, NOT Lowton or Bennett going on a fancy surge down a closed alley, or the right boot of Clark, Baker or Vlaar, hitting a long diagonal from the middle circle.

Perhaps the defenders are a bit headstrong and aren't doing what they're told? Who is going to replace Clark or Baker if they are dropped (Dunne, Vlaar injured)? Who is going to replace Lowton if he is dropped? All the discussion has been about Bennett keeping his place. The spotlight needs to be on these guys too. They're undroppable. They think they're undroppable, and their egos have taken over the team. They want to fix everything themselves with attacking passes, which should be the midfield's job.

The raw stats for passing %, cross % and long ball % say he is performing better than: Whelan (Stoke) Adam (Stoke) Cabaye (Newcastle) Guitierrez (Newcastle) Tabb (Reading) Guthrie (Reading) Noble (West Ham) Milner (Man City) Dorrans (WBA) Johnson (Norwich) Cork (Southampton) Statistics are objective. It's impossible not to give him credit for this.

After the disappointment of being subbed he will have to pick himself up and go again against Millwall.

Sometimes you have to look at the statistics to find the signal in the noise.

Whoscored.com. There is a separate column for clearances. Why do we have less possession? Because our defenders don't pass on the responsibility to our midfield. This is unlikely. The middle of the pitch is the easiest place to find with a pass from anywhere else on the pitch. We have had two CM in there all season. Not an issue the defence can pass it sideways until they find a midfielder. They just hoof it long without bothering. The strikers aren't blameless. Nobody is blameless. But you've got to start with the defence. The defence has no discipline. This is shown at set pieces. It is also shown by their lack of patience hitting long balls that go nowhere, rather than passing it until they find a more skillful midfielder.

Why don't the statistics show that? Something wrong with the statistics, or something wrong with our analytical preconceptions/bias? Westwood has almost identical statistics for passing %, crossing % and long ball % to Sidwell, Sandro, and Carrick, but look where Villa is in the table (17th) compared to Fulham, Tottenham and Man Utd. Delph and Bannan aren't as consistent on all stats as Westwood but with Bannan you get the best crosser in the Premier League (106 crosses is a decent sample size) and Delph 87% pass accuracy is up there with the best.

He crosses better than Barry and his passing accuracy is better than Milner this season. Bannan provided the structure for our attack in the first half. http://www.villatalk.com/index.php/topic/8237-player-and-team-statistics-and-analysis/ He's played deep lying playmaker. That role doesn't do that. I can't take these criticisms seriously. You are picking on one of our better players to vent your anger.

There is a logic to this. What's going wrong is not the midfield. The midfielders' stats hold up against those from other Premier League teams. Why do we lose matches then? The Aston Villa defence are playing too great a role in our attack. This is what the first table showing how many long balls our defence plays shows. Long balls are attacking passes. Our defence kicks 52% of them. Our midfield only kicks 27% of them. The midfield should be kicking nearer 50% of our long balls (like at West Brom and Man Utd) because midfielders are more skillful. Why doesn't our defence have more patience and give the ball to our midfielder? What happens when the defence dominates the attack? The midfield is by-passed. Game reverts to hoofball. Passes don't reach their targets. Attack goes to shit. Lowton is one of the worst offenders for giving away possession in our back line. He's kicked 103 long balls this season and only 49% were on target. If Lowton were to lay the ball off to Westwood, who has a 74% accuracy, then we would not lose possession so much. Also, Lowton's crossing % is only 17%. What's the point of having this attacking defender when he ruins our attacks? Why has Lowton played every game - is he undroppable? Lichaj has won 9 games for Villa this year - the only 9 games we have won. I don't believe he is a great player, but I do believe there is a reason for that.

Is the Aston Villa midfield really to blame for all our problems, or should we look elsewhere? I've got a table here that compares the stats of all the frequently played central midfielders in the Premier League. * Bannan is the best crosser. * Delph has the 9th best passing percentage. * Westwood has respectable averages on all stats. The idea the Villa central midfield is "Championship" quality is not supported by the statistics.

Explanation Guzan was ill, so it had to be Given. Lichaj has won all 9 games Villa have won this season. He's a lucky player for us. Bennett on the wing in place of Ireland. Weimann or Bowery on for Agbonlahor because they'll be sitting so deep his pace won't be needed. Given Lowton Vlaar Clark Lichaj Bannan N'Zogbia Delph Bennett Weimann Benteke

Ireland shouldn't have sulked but he was right. Vlaar should have passed to him. As a team we need to be more patient, and our defenders have got to stop playing hoof ball, and let the midfielders do the creative stuff.