KentVillan

4 hours ago, Zatman said:

I think good teams in this league dont need a limited midfielder. Should have enough to do damage with the ball but a bonus if can put foot in

The assumption here is that a physical, defensive-minded midfielder is also "limited" - fair enough, in our current squad, it's true. Surely we're a big enough club to attract a midfielder who can do both? It's not like we haven't had players like this in the recent past - Delph, Milner, Petrov, Barry, Townsend, etc. could all mix it as well as being good technically. I know Premier League clubs stockpile players like this, but it must be possible to find someone willing to do a season in the Championship.

Look at the last few clubs to win the Championship - they've all had one combative midfielder who plays most matches, and who isn't unusually gifted on the ball (possible exception of Shelvey, who can be unbelievable on his day):

• 2015/16 Barton (Burnley)
• 2016/17 Shelvey (Newcastle)
• 2017/18 Saiss (Wolves)
• 2018/19* Tettey (Norwich), Philips (Leeds)

I think these players are critical to winning titles. At one point it looked like Hourihane would be this player (more at Barnsley than at Villa), but I just don't think he's tenacious enough, much as I like other aspects of his game.

So getting back to Carroll - I liked him when he was breaking through at Spurs, and I'm willing to give him a chance. But he'll do a lot better if he has the freedom to play his natural game. A good DM would give him that freedom.

I thought we were talking about Carroll's physique and general ability to mix it physically? Mascherano is short, but well built and has always been a physical player. Also, while there are some exceptions like Mascherano, Puyol and Cannavaro, the vast majority of top centre halves are tall. It's not as if height is totally irrelevant to football, given how much time the ball spends in the air.

6 hours ago, MaVilla said:

I would respond to that, but eh.

I'll do it for you. Messi is strong as an ox, and Xavi and Iniesta had players like Busquets, Yaya Toure, and Mascherano supporting them. They played in Spain where referees blow for everything. And they're some of the most gifted footballers of all time.

We're in the English Championship, and soft players get bullied unless they have some support. It's a fair point about Carroll's physique - I don't see him working alongside Hourihane. Whether you're playing 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 or whatever, you need at least one of your centre mids to be a physical, tackling midfielder who senses danger and holds the team together. I can't think of a single successful team that doesn't have a player like this.

Part of the problem (and this isn't just a Villa thing) is that a lot of people who go to football matches know **** all about football. People who boo backward / sideways passes are the worst. People who shout at nervous youth team players who've barely broken into the squad. Or people whose only tactical shout is to lump it into the box. Or to shout foul throw. All these people belong in hell.

Hate this attitude that you buy your ticket and have paid for the right to be a whinging word removed. Those whinging words removed who sit and moan all game and then leave on 80 minutes ruin the experience for everyone sitting around them, who've also bought tickets.

Also don't buy that it doesn't affect the players. Players are human beings. They want to be loved. If you're a player who's ended up mid-table in the Championship after playing top tier football, you've probably fallen out of love with the game a bit and see it more like a job... that's where the fans can come in and turn it around. The young players breaking through need all the support they can get, before they become cynical like the old pros. The noise and passion of the fans is why some players step up a level for derby games. We need to give them that experience more often.

Hard to follow the full backs on TV, because so much of the work they do is off the ball, so I'm interested to know from people who've been to more games than me what Taylor's workrate has been like up and down the wing. Does he look like he gives a shit?

1 hour ago, hippo said:

Personally I think we should step back a bit. Smith took many plaudits on here (quite rightly) for putting AT at CB, playing Hutton in his correct position - no more square pegs in round holes. But now we want full backs to get forward and Wingers to track back -lets reel it in a bit - get defenders defending, and forward players attacking. Thats not to say a FB can't get forward if the opportunity arrives - but first and foremost he is a defender.

Full backs getting forward is a big part of the job, surely? I can't think of a single top full back who is known purely for his defensive skills.

For us right now, with one of the best attacking lineups in the league, playing possession football, and regularly facing a parked bus, then the only way to break the deadlock is to rely on a bit of magic (currently injured...), go route one, or overload their defence (e.g. with an overlapping full back).

When you go "back to basics" you invariably cause yourself new problems - giving opposition full backs too much time on the ball, or allowing weaker teams to grow into the game. I think DS's philosophy is right, but it will just take time for everything to come together. Eddie Howe has proved that you don't have to play defensive percentage football to go up and stay up. Let's stick with DS and give him a chance.

Agree that we should already be prepared for when Grealish isn't available, and not fear it.

But I also understand why people are worried - we don't have a like-for-like replacement, so given his key role in the middle of the park, we are going to have to play a slightly different system. Even if the formation looks the same on paper, it will feel different to all 11 players, because Jack is their link up man who can receive the ball under pressure and keep the play ticking over. Allows us to play proper possession football and control the pace of the game.

Now I think we might want to spread the play more and try and focus the attacks through Bolasie and El Ghazi, maybe play a bit more direct.

Dean Smith is a good manager who's used to working with weakened squads, so I'm pretty confident he has this covered. But fingers crossed Jack will be fit soon.

We have a reputation for having a decent youth system that has brought a lot of players through.

Here's a question: Is it actually any good for a club of our size, status and catchment area?

Successes

I see a few definite success stories over the last 20 years: Jack, Gabby,  Steven Davis, Darius Vassell, Lee Hendrie, Jlloyd (RIP)... I would say Gareth Barry, who was pick of the bunch, but we picked him up age 16, so not sure what that says about the youth setup.

The ones who got away

We then have a couple of top quality, title-winning players who broke into the first team, but didn't really show their class until they left: Gary Cahill, Marc Albrighton. I've always thought those two players reflect very badly on the setup at Villa. Losing a talented, hardworking, popular Villa fan in Albrighton on the cheap was the kind of thing only a badly run club can do.

The squad players

Then we have some players who are / were low PL / high Championship regulars: Ciaran Clark, DJ Campbell, Barry Bannan, Andi Weimann, Craig Gardner, Boaz Myhill, Agent Ridgewell, maybe Nathan Baker. None of these lads achieved anything at Villa.

The wasted talent

And then we have loads of disappointments... who remembers how good Nathan Delfouneso was meant to be? Or Gary Gardner? The Moore brothers, Samir Carruthers... We were top half Premier League and talking about this talent coming through.

Look at the clubs we used to compare ourselves with... Everton aren't even the main club in their city and they've produced Rooney, Barkley, Tom Davies, Rodwell, Richard Dunne, Franny Jeffers, Tony Hibbert, Leon Osman over the same period. I can't even bring myself to do the same research on Spurs. Or even Southampton, who we used to look down upon.

Is this really a story of a big, well financed club with a great youth system? Or does the following story ring true: that we found a lot of decent prospects, didn't have a system for them to grow up in, didn't develop players well technically, didn't develop them as well-rounded people... that they didn't enjoy being here, and unless they moved on (usually underpriced) they didn't fulfil their potential? Even our successes haven't been the best at looking after themselves (fancy a night out with Hendrie, Gabby and Jack?).

I wonder if our reputation for developing youth has more to do with players like Young, Milner, Delph, Barry, Hitzlsperger who signed young and made their names here (now Tammy, Tuanzebe, etc. in similar boat).

The future

The good news is Christian Purslow seems to have a long-term plan. I hope it doesn't involve bitter old dinosaurs calling young boys c***s twenty times a day and toughening them up with two footers. The game isn't played like that anymore!

14 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

It was immediately before? They got his flick, launched it forward and scored. Others culpable for the defending obviously.

I agree it's good to try things around their box. Just frustrating as it was a really crap flick  He waited for it and telegraphed it, before then miskicking it.

 

it was opposite end of the park, and Hutton had the ball under control in between the pass and the goal, and there was still a cross to deal with after that, and loads for the striker to do. Just watched it again, and it's 15 seconds from his flick to their goal, which is a long time for a single passage of play? You can comfortably run the length of the pitch in that time...

Abraham is getting blame in proportion to the outcome, not to the act itself. It was a very minor mistake.

3 minutes ago, Junxs said:

It was one pass from that to their goal, it blatantly wasnt going to get through to Bolasie and everyone had pushed up.. there were plenty of other passes to play but he went for the most difficult one which wasn't even on.

... one pass, Hutton wins the ball back easily, has the ball, falls over, Tuanzebe isn't covering... you're making out like the pitch has just opened up for them.

Blaming Tammy for that goal is the mentality that has hindered English football for years, and makes your attacking talent play low-ambition football to avoid abuse.

1 minute ago, Tomaszk said:

Silly flick for their first as well. Never going to connect that return ball. We know their danger is on the break and you gift them the ball when we're in a great position.

Not sure he deserves any blame there. Was ages before their goal, and defence should have dealt with it. I'm happy to let talented attacking players try things like that around the opposition penalty area - it's not as if he did a no-look back heel towards our own goal.

1 minute ago, bobzy said:

Agreed.

Your point?

You're trying to say Tammy is equally / more responsible for the result. He's made a mistake, but otherwise had a decent game, and brings something to the team, and instils confidence in his teammates.

Nyland is making these kinds of mistakes in most games. It gets in the heads of your own players, and gives the oppo confidence.

You can't say Tammy is more culpable just because he's messed up a shot. Even a world class striker will miss as many as he tucks away. The job of goalkeeper is different. Keepers don't go sprinting around the pitch for 90 mins. They don't link up the play, work the channels, drag defenders out of position, or make unnoticed runs in behind. Their fundamental job is to concentrate, not be a p*ssy, and do the basics right - Nyland fails on every count.

2 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Which is exactly why my first post said I knew Nyland would get stick despite Abraham being more culpable.

Nyland is consistently toilet. Abraham is 4th highest scorer in the Championship.

On 30/11/2018 at 14:40, Tayls said:

Good post dude. 

My thoughts on it though, just by going off your screenshot, is that Taylor is taking up a more central position because of the absence of Chester (where the fack is he btw?!). If he didnt, then all the chap would have to do is play it forward to the runner next to him (the two guys that axel is inbetween) and it would have been a 1v1. So the fact that he played it wide to Lolley actually makes it a bit trickier for Forest. 

Just so happens that they put it in anyway...

so, 

1) where the fack is Chester

2) Axel shouldn’t be in a position where he is parallel to his man facing his goal

3) what are our midfielders doing giving them that much space in that part of the pitch. 

I actually think Taylor has done the right thing there. 

I get all of that (and mentioned that Chester / Hourihane to blame for the break) but I don't think Taylor is doing anything to prevent the pass to Grabban - that's Axel who blocks that pass.

When you have a 4 v 3, the 3 defenders have to try and split 2 attackers each, something like:

• A - A - A - A
• - D -- D -- D

You also want that back 3 to be fairly flat, just to make the attackers check their runs, or to possibly catch them offside.

So Taylor should be in position to deal with either Lolley or Carvalho, Axel has Carvalho and Grabban, and Hutton should have Grabban and whoever is driving down the left (Cash maybe).

It's still an overload, and obviously once you're in that position, there's a high chance of conceding, but Taylor and Hutton made it easy for them, whereas Axel (in my opinion) did the right thing in the circumstances.

Taylor's positioning on the first goal is questionable. We have a 4 on 3 because Hourihane and Chester have wiped each other out. So Axel has decided to come out and meet Carvalho, who has the ball (they're both inside the circle where the Sky Player button is).

Axel actually does a great job of cutting off the immediate pass inside to Grabban (Carvalho fakes to do it, and then spreads it wide to Lolley).

Taylor can't do anything about Grabban, so his only thought should be to step towards Joe Lolley who is high on Forest's right wing, bringing our offside line up and giving Lolley less space.

He just hangs there deep, leaving a huge pocket behind Axel, which Grabban is able to charge into AND leaving acres of space for Lolley.

In my opinion, he should be standing much closer to the top of the Sky Player circle in the screenshot - giving us a higher line, but also giving him enough room to deal with Lolley.

I get that (a) Chester has gone missing, which creates the 4 on 3 in the first place, and (b) Taylor might have been expecting Axel to stay deeper and pick up Grabban, with Taylor splitting Carvalho and Lolley. But once Axel has made that decision (which Taylor can see immediately), Taylor should step out to his left and cut the distance to Lolley.

By the way, a few people saying the first Forest goal was offside - I paused it a few times, and I think Grabban was just on.

Also a few people saying Lolley's goal was bad defending / goalkeeping. Not sure that's fair re: defending, as he was so far out, you usually don't mind letting a player shoot from there. Re goalkeeping, I'd need to see another angle, but if it was an easy save that just reinforces the point that DS has inherited a terrible keeper.

Other comments about us needing a defensive midfielder - yes, that would definitely help, but a good defensive midfielder who can also play good passing football is a rarity at this level.

I think much more urgent is to sort out the back 4. Hutton doesn't seem to be able to play back-to-back weekend / mid-week games. Taylor is fine in possession, but he can't defend. Chester is usually solid defensively, but he gets caught out in possession, and he panics when the ball is turned over in midfield. Axel is amazing in possession, and has all the attributes to be a great defender, but he needs to grow tactically, and he also panics when we lose the ball in midfield.

I suspect DS's biggest weakness is that he wants to control games from 1st to 90th minute, and he probably doesn't spend enough time on the 'worst-case scenario'. I had hoped that JT might bring some of Mourinho's training ground routines on set pieces and defensive transitions, but maybe he doesn't have that much influence yet, or maybe the players just haven't grasped it properly.

Look at Axel's body position on the Carvalho goal (should be much more open) and look at Taylor's position on the first Grabban goal, and you'll see two very basic defensive mistakes that we should be able to iron out. In Axel's case, I don't think he'll be making those mistakes in 5 years' time, but Taylor should know better. New goalkeeper and left-back in January, please.

7 hours ago, Made In Aston said:

The zonal making was more concerning. Never been a fan of it and was the reason Lutkeiwicz was free on set pieces time and time again. 

To be honest, the only benefit of man marking at corners is that referees ignore all the shirt pulling and wrestling, so if you're man-to-man you can take all the attacking threats out of the game.

As soon as VAR comes in, zonal will become the norm.

3 hours ago, The_Rev said:

Maybe he will come good, but he's been trying to come good for two years now. I'm sure he was confident of his fitness before he broke down last time too. He's an exceptional talent but it seems like a crazy signing at this point. Are we going to get a run of 20+ games out of him or will the rest of the season be as stop-start as it has been so far? 

Yeah, not saying this is definitely the case with Bolasie, but there's a huge financial incentive for a crocked pro in his late 20s to drag out his career for another few years, picking up good pay checks because of his old abilities, and occasionally managing a run of games.

The problem is that after an ACL and knee reconstruction, you're not getting the same player. The player you do get depends a lot on their ability to adapt. Players who rely on explosive pace are affected the most. There are some reassuring examples like Pires, Overmars or van Nistelrooy, who all dribbled at speed, and came back from mid-career ACL injuries as similar players. But there are a lot of players who had to stop trying to beat men and rely on other skills - worked fine for Shearer, Xavi and del Pieiro, but destroyed Michael Owen's game (in fairness, he had loads of other problems besides ACL).

So I reckon we can either enjoy occasional bursts of Bolasie as a lightning fast winger who is clearly Top 10 PL standard, but he will be playing on borrowed time. Or we can get a more conservative ball-playing midfielder, who can last 90 mins and play a full season - but not sure how useful Bolasie will be in that role? Could still be a strong Championship player... hard to tell without seeing him try it.

3 hours ago, smg said:

He is touted as a £40 million player by some but at the moment his biggest contribution is winning free kicks some of which are highly dubious.  He has talent but he needs to start influencing matches and adding to the points total.

He is influencing matches. There's a reason why other teams try to mark him out of the game, why opposition players take it in turns to collect bookings for fouling him. These opposition managers aren't all idiots seduced by the Grealish hype. This man-marking *should* be creating extra space for all the other players in the team, but we don't seem to be taking advantage of it...

Can't believe Jack is taking so much stick for this performance. He was one of our best players tonight.

A lot of armchair generals who don't know much about football are stringing words together like a monkey at a typewriter. He is so much better technically than 99% of players in the Championship. Even when he plays below par, Jack passes the ball with more zip, beats more men, finds better angles, tries more difficult ideas than anyone else in the team.

Yes he blasts his free kicks into the wall too often, but you can only do that if you're the one entrusted with the task. It's easy to avoid taking risks if you want to avoid criticism, but he never shirks his responsibilities.

I'd understand all the criticism if he had an attitude problem, but I see a good work rate and plenty of commitment to the cause, even in the dying minutes of a game. If you want to hound him out of the club, trust me he will perform at a higher level for another club with better teammates.