Laughable Chimp

10 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

He has contributed directly to 7+ of our 17 goals which is pretty good and considering 2 of them were from set pieces where could contribute he has contributed to 45% of our goals from open play

I'm not arguing he's not involved in our goals at all,. I'm arguing that if he was a false 9, he should be more involved in the rest of our goals where he didn't score. Being involved in 3 out of our remaining 14 goals isn't impressive for a guy that's supposedly more involved in supporting the midfield and attack than actually scoring goals for himself. 

Okay, I misunderstood your set piece point. Deleted it.

7 minutes ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

You replied to my post but add quite a lot of suggestions here that dont correspond to what I wrote. I was replying to the statement that he can't control or run with or head the ball. He clearly can, he wouldn't have been young player of the year or called up the Brazil squad for example if he couldn't. The post had nothing to do with his form. 

Well, he can't for us. That's the point, I don't care if he could control or run or head the ball in some other league in the past. He's not doing it for us right now.

Please don't make me explain why the Brazilian squad argument thing doesn't necessarily mean he is actually playing any good, this is the 4th time in 2 days I would have to explain it in this thread. 

36 minutes ago, TRO said:

I guess the 22 mill spent has something to do with it too.

We can't keep simply writing off strikers and expect owners to keep filling the purse....billionaires or not.

Sunk Cost Fallacy is a fallacy for a reason. Playing players because you invested a lot of money into them is not logical, despite how it may seem. Only look at their on field performances and their potential, not how much they cost in wages and how much money it cost to bring them to the club. Not saying Wesley shouldn't be played, just putting the point out there in general

Players should not be written off in general after very few games, but that should have nothing to do with how much they cost the club.

42 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Off the top of my head, I can think of El Ghazi's goal against Everton, and Jack's goal against Brighton as goals he was integral in, and played the pass to the assister. Those 2 games plus the Norwich game where he got 2 of his goals and his assist, he was pretty good so we know there's something there.

Right now, that player showing up only once every 3 or 4 games isn't good enough but that's why we took a punt on him for £22m from the Belgian league. So we can develop him to the point where he's performing like that consistently...at which point he'll be worth way more than £22m. The coaching staff seem to be sticking by him and the Brazilian national team seem to believe there's something there as well. It's kind of odd that it's the Villa fans showing the least faith in the lad, only 12 games into the season.

The Villa lads actually have to watch him play every week. I doubt the Brazilian national team have actually looked that deeply at Wesley as people seem to think they have. Its no secret Wesley has the credentials and phsical attributes and he is playing in one of the top leagues in Europe, so them  wanting to try him out for a while is understandable. The coaching staff are sticking by him because the alternatives don't seem that great and they're hardly gonna say he's been very poor for us when confidence has been vital. If we have Morelos or another definitely solid striker in out team, I think you might see the true level of faith the coaching staff truly have for him.

6 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Jack, by far our most creative player and one of the most creative in the whole league, has just 3 assists this season. We should know better than most that the final touch before the goal isn't the be-all of creativity, although it doesn't hurt of course.

Yeah that's why I added the point, most of our goals without him bypass him outright. Jack is actually involved a lot in starting our attacks, an assisster for the assisster if you will. Wesley isn't. 

1 hour ago, Dave-R said:

Most lone strikers these days are not in the team to score a ton of goals and I think that's the mistake many on here or in the Villa fan base are making. Wesley's main role will be to provide any support by dropping into midfield and allowing our incoming attacking midfielders and wingers to proceed beyond him. Of course if Wesley can grab some goals in the process as well as being an up front supportive striker then that's fantastic.

Wesley I think has everything to be an excellent false 9, he does drop out of his frontal position in midfield a fair bit and does play some nice passes. He has on occasions caused a number of headaches to defences and he needs to keep that up. I don't see Wesley bagging tons of goals, in fact I'd much rather him continue to be effective at causing headaches and bagging the odd goal every couple of games.

If we dropped the two wingers or at most brought them more central I could see support to Wes increasing and the support in which he can dish out. Often when Wes has the ball he's been isolated, closed down quickly and it's partly due to the fact we do not have enough players near for support for the cross to them or so they can cross to him. Our wingers are running down the flanks so they arnt necessarily in Wesley's area while he's needing help to keep the ball that's been sent to him from our defence by our defence, midfield or whoever. I think when our players are charging forward after we've been backed up for some time, it may help if our wingers offer central support instead of focusing on getting back out to the flank.

If Wes remains in there half while were backed up in our defence it's very difficult to get the ball to a lone striker and expect him to keep it till support arrives. Nearly every time we've managed to send the ball to Wes to hold onto it while the rest move on up he has been relieved of it and for a good many reasons. One mainl reason is he's being swarmed, and our players arnt getting in supportive positions fast enough. Another reason he's new to this harsh frantic league and only world class false 9 would be ok under that stress because they come from every angle to close him down and it takes something special to out manuvere two to three players coming at you from all angles.

It's very easy for many to look at Wes and see he's the one who's at fault for either not scoring or not being there to support others, but what about the rest of the team when they arnt there for Wes or are not in there positions ready to receive when they should of been.

Wes in my eyes is doing a decent job for what's been placed on his shoulders, yes there are aspects of his game I'd like to see improved, less being on the floor and more running to relieve the ball from opposition.

I'm sure he will better himself over time and if we buy one or two more strikers that would mean we certainly have time to define Wesley into the type of false 9 style he looks every bit he is.

He doesn't reall support the team all that much either though. He's had to date, one assist. Most of our goals without him scoring just bypass him. I don't see him bullying defenders or beinva. general headache to people in defence either.

6 hours ago, MotoMkali said:

Wesley is not a target man and the sooner some of our fans realize that the better. Seriously how hard is it to understand that when wesley receives the ball to his feet 9/10 he keeps the ball and often helps create good chances. And 9/10 out of 10 if you randomly kick a ball to a defender on the other side of the pitch of course wesley isn't going to win it. I still haven't seen a long ball from open play that I think wesley has a prayer of winning and probably 60% of the goals kicks are so poor I don't think he could win them either l. 

I didn't say he was a targetman. I said Brazil might think he is one just looking at his size. I also don't think any of our fans here actually think he's a targetman either so its a strawman.

1 hour ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

I think being young player of the year in Belgium, scouts with a proven track record recommending us to buy him for over £20M, a manager who we trust playing him every week and getting called up to the Brazil squad would suggest otherwise. 

The first 2 just tells us that he was great before. But insisting a player is great right now because of how he played previously in another league and not looking at how he is actually currently playing for us is silly. There have been many players who looked masterful at their old club but for one reason or another are unable to replicate anything of their old form at their new club.

Smith plays him every week because we don't have much option. 

Anyone legitimately thinking Wesley's form is great because he got a call up to the Brazil national team is insane. Its not hard to imagine that whilst thinking who to call up, they found this 20million plus pound striker who seems to be scoring some goals in the PL and thought maybe they should bring him on for a bit to see how good he is for them. Plus, I'm not that familiar with the Brazilian national team, but I don't think they have another striker with Wesley's size and they probably thought he'd be useful to play if they wanted to try the targetman route.(as to which they'll soon realize he is not great at that)

Reading some of the earlier comments on this thread made me sad.

5 minutes ago, Hitzlsperger_12 said:

Closer to the £30 million mark imo. Gerrard and the new sporting director (Ross Wilson who came from Southampton) have both said he's going nowhere in January. If we sold him, we're basically throwing away any chance we have of beating Celtic to the title imo.

30million for a player playing in a league that's arguably not even championship standard is pretty insane to me. Might be better for us to look else where for more value for money.

1 hour ago, VillaChris said:

Morelos has scored a few times in europa at least. That was my big reservation in the summer when he was linked, think he just scored once in the competition last season when rangers were in group with Villareal.

Europa league has some pretty trash teams. The list of clubs he's scored against the Europa League this season is St Joseph's, a Gibraltar football club, FC midtjylland, a Danish football club and Legia Warszawa, a Polish football club. That's not really anywhere near premier league opposition.

8 hours ago, Mister_a said:

You like your little stat don't you. 20+ shots per game. Tired of hearing it.

We have faced 57 shots on target against us all season.

If we have had 20+ shots against us per game (which is probably a load of made up nonsense also), then the majority are way out and off target, let everyone keep shooting from there for all i care.

Currently there are 7 teams that are worse off with shots on target against.

Incidentally we're currently 4th in the table for shots on target also, funny how you never bring that up?

http://www.footcharts.co.uk/index.cfm?task=basics_shotsontarget

Shots on target
English Premier - All - 2019/2020

Position	Team	Played	Shots on target		Shots on target per game
			For	Agst	For	Agst
15	Norwich	12	43	75	3.58	6.25
11	Tottenham	12	49	72	4.08	6.00
6	West Ham	12	59	71	4.92	5.92
9	Arsenal	12	53	64	4.42	5.33
13	Southampton	12	48	64	4.00	5.33
19	Watford	12	39	62	3.25	5.17
14	Brighton	12	43	59	3.58	4.92
4	Aston Villa	12	64	57	5.33	4.75
18	Newcastle	12	40	57	3.33	4.75
12	Bournemouth	12	48	56	4.00	4.67
10	Burnley	12	49	53	4.08	4.42
17	Crystal Palace	12	41	53	3.42	4.42
1	Man City	12	86	46	7.17	3.83
5	Man United	12	61	45	5.08	3.75
16	Wolves	12	42	45	3.50	3.75
8	Everton	12	54	44	4.50	3.67
20	Sheffield United	12	37	42	3.08	3.50
7	Leicester	12	57	40	4.75	3.33
2	Chelsea	12	80	35	6.67	2.92
3	Liverpool	12	77	30	6.42	2.50

Yes we need to tighten up defensively, especially in the last 20 mins, but can you stop going on about something that doesn't really make much difference as thought it is a major failing.

We're also 17th in terms of expected goals conceded. Shots on target by itself may not give the whole picture.

Oh and the whole, we are conceding 20+ shots per game idea is true for a lot of our games. Wolves we conceded 17 shots(including because its close). Liverpool 25 shots. Manchester City 25 shots. Brighton 20 shots. Norwich 21 shots, Arsenal 21 shots. Crystal Palace 22 shots. Tottenham 31 shots. 2 of these teams were playing with 10 men for most of the game against us mind you and they still managed 20 or more shots and its not as if we've been shutting teams out in spite of their amount of shots. I do think its definitely a factor to us conceding, just the constant pressure we are up against as the opposing team fires shot after shot at us.

3 hours ago, Hitzlsperger_12 said:

I've grown up a Rangers fan, my Villa love came along a bit later later (around the Little/Gregory eras). So I've been following Villa most of my 33yrs. I watch every Rangers game home, away, Europe.

I can say without a shadow of doubt, Morelos is the real deal. In recent years he's definitely the best striker we've had since Jelavic. In saying that, he's probably better than him already. Rangers have probably held on to him a season more than we should have due to his temperament issues last season but it's been a blessing. I think missing out on the Copa America squad with Colombia during the summer was when the penny dropped and his discipline has been amazing this season. Yes, he still has that fire but he's using it in the right way.

This season he's taken it to a new level, culminating with him bagging his 1st goal for Colombia over the weekend. His hold up play for someone so young is incredible, you can't even compare it to Wesley, he's miles ahead of him in the department. He's been dropping deeper to great effect this season, his passing is very good as well. People will always compare him to Edouard, both are very promising young strikers but Morelos hold up/link up play is far superior at this moment in time. I would also say he's a bit more mobile as well.

The only thing is, Rangers won't sell him in January unless it's funny money.

I know there is a lot of different opinions of Morelos on here, but imo if we had Morelos since the start of the season, we would have more points on the board, it's as simple as that.

How much money would be considered "funny money" for Rangers?

9 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

My mate who is a Preston fan says he has been crap on the few appearances he has made for them.

I think he will be gone come the summer. Injury prone and has one good game in ten. Not good enough for this level 

I don't think he's even made 10 appearances for them yet.

11 minutes ago, screwdriver said:

exactly Taylor should of started as he's quicker and good at the dark arts eg tactical fouls. also has seamus colemans leg break on his cv. adama would be well aware of this and not try any fancy stuff.

Smith threw target under the bus by playing him.

 

If Taylor started instead of Targett, the amount of shit he and Smith would've gotten on this forum would've been incredible. Even if he fared like he did against Adama for the whole game, lots people would still say Smith was mad to start Taylor instead of Targett against Adama. I mean, some people here still think he was horrific that game despite doing better than Targett against Adama and want him nothing to do with the club.

53 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

Except Jack was actually good at the start of the season he wasn't really taking players on but he was still involved in everything we did with his passing and movement and was a key part in all our goals.

McGinn has been poor since and including the brighton game. On top of that he really needs to be subbed earlier in games and deans decision to not doing that is really costing us. Mcginn is an energy guy he is good when he can outrun players but once that is gone he is honestly pretty crap which is why once he can't run he should be off the pitch not risking himself with injuries or cards when he isn't adding anything to our game and is often hamstringing our attack and defense with his lack of mobility. 

I disagree. I thought it took awhile for Jack to really get rolling. I distincly remember him losing the ball at the tottenham game and that may have led to us conceding a goal. Yes a lot of what we did went through him but that doesn't necessarily mean he was very good, just that a lot of what we did went through him so anytime a move came off successfully, Jack was involved but if a move failed, Jack was involved as well. It took a few games before he really started flying.

Mcginn is like the opposite. Started really brightly than gradually faded as time went on. Perhaps no one else in the team really benefits more from Jack's presense than Mcginn,

Man, I've finally figured out why Mcginn always looks weird to me.

His face has relatively deep eyeholes. 

1 hour ago, Keyblade said:

The problem is, people look at his frame and assume he's a target man. He's more of a false 9. He can link play well, but only when it's to feet as he obviously struggles with controlling high balls in this league at the moment. His goal-scoring record also isn't too bad for someone who likes to play so deep. 16 goals and 10 assists in ~45 games in all competitions (including CL) last season is not too shabby at all. Currently at 4 goals and 1 assist in 12 games for us, so he's right on track.

He'd actually be on 12/13 goals and 3 assists if he goes on at this rate, so not really on track compared to previously. Still decent numbers though.

On the false 9 thing, I think its a bit of a strawman because no one who's watched him play at this point considers him a target man. That doesn't change the fact that we are often forced to play him as a target man because we can't get the ball up the field normally.  Also a false 9 has good dribbling ability, good short passing and link up play as well as good vision. I have not seen Wesley showcase any of these traits for us. Yes, even the good link up play that some people swear he's good at which I don't seem to ever see considering he seems to rarely be involved in our attacks and is isolated as hell. 

I don't know with this guy. I think he is talented, but he's also kind of useless a lot for us. Seems to be much better in a team where we have good control of the game, like during that league cup match with Wolves. But that rarely happens for us so he's kind of like a passenger a lot. 

Both Wesley and Douglas Luiz seem to be players who are much better in a team when they are dominating the match. Almost luxury players in a sense.

1 hour ago, villa4europe said:

Not a chance, 1st especially, perfectly placed sweet as a nut bending away from the keeper, not a keeper in the world saving that, easy goal for wolves 

 

Nyland actually got his fingertips to it, not that hard to imagine a keeper with better positioning and shot stopping ability to save it. It would've been an incredible looking save, but not impossible.

Just now, wilko154 said:

Again it's all very well saying that but Davis most likely won't be back until January. So it's Kodjia or Wesley.

We've created this situation ourselves by not bringing in a second striker.

Writing Wesley off after four months is just plain daft.

I've seen this twice now, that he won't be back with us for a while but I thought I remembered reading that he was expected to be out for a month after his injury. He should be close to a return by the time we play Newcastle by that forecast, so late November or early December.

22 minutes ago, wilko154 said:

I'm not saying they are wrong, some of his performances have been poor but it had to be expected, very few young strikers coming into English football hit the ground running. The more he plays the quicker he learns and unlocks his potential. When he's been good he's been very good, the Everton and Norwich games were the standard we need to get him upto for every game. For me those two games in particular prove that there is a lot of talent in Wesley that both Aston Villa and Brazil have seen.

It's easy to say bench him and bring another striker in, but right now its November 15th. We have 10 games to go before we can sign a new striker. 

Are you suggesting we drop Wesley and play Kodjia going forward? 

I agree he needs reinforcements to help him come January, a striker with some pace and skill who can play on the shoulder of the defence gives us another dimension to our play and can either replace Wesley when he's out of form or play with him to get the best out of them both. Equally a player in his mould with some experience (Giroud for example) may also be beneficial to helping him learn and improve and take the pressure off for a year or two.

Its not some of his performances have been poor, its most of his performances has been very poor. Like, he is completely and utterly useless in most of these games and I don't think that's so much an exaggeration. I'm not the person who came up with the "its like playing with 10 men" argument with him but I can certainly see it with him. As crap as our wingers have been at times I wouldn't label this at them. And for all this talk about his potential, its entirely possible he just never adapts for us and just remains crap the entire way at which point we'd probably be relegated if we didn't sign another striker.(or Smith does the smart thing and give Davis a chance).

**** Kodjia. #GiveDavisAChance.(when he returns from injury. Get well soon).

1 minute ago, KentVillan said:

This thread is really just going round in circles now.

I would have liked to have signed both. They each offer something different. We could have afforded this, and they both fit the transfer policy of looking for long-term investments.

The man went for 20 million to Brighton, we would've had to outbid them for his services still so he would've gone to us for an even higher price than that, That's a lot of extra money so am not sure we really could've afforded it, unless we sacrificed another of our signings. Maybe Luiz.

32 minutes ago, thunderball said:

Big fan of Maupay, but this is based on nothing but your subjective view.

Maupay has hardly set the league (or Brighton) on fire.

He actually has a worse goal per minute ratio than Wesley and has no assists. At least Wesley has one of those. I'm surprised at how many people seem to still want Maupay in spite of it.

17 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Again, those were all against weaker opposition, the to PL teams in the cup being Brighton's U23's and Wolves' reserves respectively. He's good to have in those games as we're generally on top and his qualities become useful.

But in situations where it's more 50/50 or we're the underdogs, he becomes a passenger. He's slow both in thought and in physical speed and is closed down and dispossessed very quickly by the better players. The benefits he brings to games then become outweighed by these negatives. In those situations it's much better have Douglas or even Lansbury who can shift the ball quickly even though they're not the most physically gifted either. His set piece delivery is certainly missed though.

Is Douglas really that much better than Hourihane,? Idk, I've been seeing a lot of praise for him(before the latest game) but I don't feel like he's actually contributed much to the team beyond the long shots he's scored. His passing range doesn't seem to be all that useful to us with how deep he's usually seated and defensively, he isn't very good either. I can count at least 3 times this season where a Luiz mistake directly led to a goal we've conceded. I think Luiz can be labelled as a passenger as well in a lot of games and I think Hourihane still contributes more to the team in any situation than Luiz does, having arguably the second best long shot in the team after Luiz, easily our most dangerous set-piece specialist and one of our biggest goal threats in open play.