andyjsg

I guess we can find some things to manufacture but unfortunately people wont work at the rates of some far eastern countries and will end up going on strike after 5 minutes anyway.

If you're after a sensible discussion about the future of manufacturing in this country or most other 'western' economies then you might do best to leave the 'crush the unions' prejudice to one side.

Fair enough, what do you think can be done?

Or we could provide financial services for the rest of the world....

It depends what this increasing provision would bring with it and how it may imperil (perhaps further) the UK economy.

What I took from the gist of the Morgan Stanley graph in the other thread (showing G10 debt distribution over sectors) is the imbalance within our economy (as opposed to the conclusions drawn about London's position within the global financial environment); the worry would be that allowing (or even encouraging) that sector to play a larger part within the UK economy than the 7/8/10 % that it already does may (and possibly has to) bring with it many more problems than the benefits that could be seen in headline figures of GDP and the like.

Japan's reliance on manufacturing isnt exactly helping them right now....

I would say you don't know what it's about then. The old "they will move their business" is laughable really. Your (and the Tory party) saying then that we basically have to do anything and everything that the financial sector says or they will move out? Laughable way to run a country. As for people losing their jobs in the financial sector then there has to be a portion of blame and a restructuring of the finance industry. That may well mean that jobs are lost. Your (and again the Tory party) are seemingly happy for the finance sector to remain in its current format and put the blame on to the public sector and then attack this sector (a long held traditional Tory target).

No, no and no. I swear I write one thing and you read another. What I said is that we shouldnt be held to ransom by Sarkosy, that we shouldnt be in a position where finance work can be done cheaper in asia, hence the "worldwide" part of the tax. I agree with it if it is worldwide, we need to be competitive, I really dont understand why you dont understand that. Aon for example are moving their HQ here within the next couple of years, this will create more jobs and more tax, surely this is what we want?

As a "lowly" job holder you must then be even more open to the idea of protection for those in similar jobs elsewhere in the country? Or are you one of those Tories who typically look at themselves and then stop?

I have issues with the Public Sector due to the amount of waste and high cost for what are essentially poor quality public services. I agree with effeciencies being brought in to fix the overhead. I think in a lot of cases they are unavoidable....

our first kid took 18 months before he slept through the night!

Oh no!!! I'm gonna have to drug him :-)

I'm not, but little we can do to compete with places like Cambodia.

That makes no sense whatsoever. So are you really saying we should not have a minimum wage because Cambodia is able to offer a few pence per hour?

Nope, I'm saying we can't compete, end of.

I think the Robin Hood Tax is good but only if worldwide, Im suprised you dont actually agree with the Tories stance on this. You may say they are protecting their mates, but they are also protecting a large amount of income for the country. Personally I think all the finance industry needs is more regulation.

Are you aware of what the Robin Hood tax is all about?

Investment into the country is fine and dandy as long as it is not at the expense of others. Trading in Chinese currency etc through London potentially would increase funds into here (I would have thought that other financial markets would also look at this method), but to achieve this we surely do not need to pander to the financial world (again) and remove any blame for the mess the world already finds itself in because a lot of their actions? I wonder when we will here the next instalment of "they will move their business overseas" as some sort of justification?

Fully aware of what its about but I believe it has to be worldwide and yes I do believe "they will move their business overseas" is a full justification. Whilst you point out the many public sector jobs that are lost it seems perfectly acceptable to you that those in the financial sector loose their jobs. I have a lowly job in an Insurance Company so I should loose my job to fit your ideology?

My baby boy Ryan arrived on Thursday evening weighing in at 6lbs 10. Hoping to bring Mum and baby home tomorrow. Can't wait.

Many congrats, look forward to no sleep....

Im 7 weeks in now and things are improving sleep-wise but might be a while before a whole night.

:-) - Good to see that you are anti-minimum wage

I'm not, but little we can do to compete with places like Cambodia.

Also the Chinese thing explains a lot why Gideon and Dave have gone complete and utter U turn on the finance sector and now will continue to blame the public sector workforce etc for the financial problems of this country.

Lot's of that going on recently isnt there :-)

Would the whole Robin Hood tax thing now have a greater impact if Gideon's plan were to actually happen?

I think the Robin Hood Tax is good but only if worldwide, Im suprised you dont actually agree with the Tories stance on this. You may say they are protecting their mates, but they are also protecting a large amount of income for the country. Personally I think all the finance industry needs is more regulation.

So you've never paid cash to dodge the VAT on goods or a service?

Fair play to anyone who can stop the bastards getting at their money - I do my level best to pay as little tax as possible. If HMRC want it, get better at getting it. Simple.

So you are happy to basically break the law?

I cant condone breaking the law, but using the tax system to your own advantage maybe. My main job I pay normal tax like anybody else but for my private work I use the system to suit my needs as I think Im getting taxed more than enough already.

Is our economy not already overly reliant on the finance sector?

Though anything that has a positive effect on GDP figures may be seen as a good thing in the short term (and will obviously be of interest to politicians - especially when the growth fairy failed to turn up and the export miracle hasn't occurred), it seems as though we ought to tread with caution about putting more of our eggs in that basket.

I guess we can find some things to manufacture but unfortunately people wont work at the rates of some far eastern countries and will end up going on strike after 5 minutes anyway. Also when we make cheaper stuff like Rovers it ends up being god awful and nobody wants to buy it. Of course we can make the high quality stuff but the only people who can afford it are the same people who most on here want to burn on a cross, so maybe that one is out too.

Or we could provide financial services for the rest of the world....

No, credit ratings wouldn't have dropped. Money is seeking a safe home right now, running from the approaching storm.

You sure about that? I think the credit agencies disagree with you.

Also I see Ed Balls has woken up and smelt the coffee regarding cuts, only a year late to waking up to reality. So I assume you all disagree with your own party now?

Yep that's it. Literally no pain for 2-3 miles, then it gradually builds up as a dull ache on the outside of my left knee until I can't bear it. I'll pop to the doctors. Cheers for the advice, at least knowing stretching worked for you is encouraging.

I get this too on my right knee. I find using a foam roller and rolling my IT bands help. Hurts like hell mind but certainly helps.

Back to running properly again tonight, been half-arsed last couple of months since moving and Mrs having baby. Noticed the trousers are getting tight again and I still have a Triathlon to complete in September, so training starts in earnest.

Manifesto's are complete bollox, if you havent learnt that by now you are even more naive than you seem.

:-) - priceless

I think we can safely say that in hindsight it is easy to talk about what the parties thought about the boom year and in the end all parties were pretty much wrong (apart from Cable - on one of his many predictions - if you throw enough shit and all that).

As you seem to have chosen to ignore others comments I dont know why I need to type it out again. Summary, Ireland is under tough financial sactions from europe which is making it difficult for them. If we had followed Balls position we would have ended up in the same place and having our cuts chosen by the lenders. But I guess you will ignore it again, so why did I bother?

Lost me completely is what you are trying to justify now. On one hand you can't use hindsight and then on the other it's perfectly right to do so?

Again your justification for (IMO) the failing policies of the Tory party (endorsed by Glegg) is that you say "ahhh but Labour" "Balls would have done .....". The question re Ireland was a valid one in that as Gideon has said they are a key part of the UK economy, and they have followed / been forced to go through a series of major cutbacks. The results of these seem to be negative in terms of its result according to the recent figures, and as such the question should be asked is this the best way forward and can other countries learn from this apparently failed idea. Agree?

It's funny how people say "Ball's would have done this...." "Ball's would have done that ....", and then use this as some sort of fact that it would have happened. Correct me if I am wrong but was Ed Balls the Chancellor? Does Gvmt policy (assuming Labour had remained in power) then have to follow what Ed Balls put forward as an idea - despite it being different to nearly all the other Labour party leaders? What about the views published today by Milliband about how the approach to deficit reduction should be carried out?

Maybe the reality would have been a phased / slower paced approach with targets rather than the weak and vulnerable like we see now, but the stronger in the society, those who can take the pain a bit more? Bit of a plan B don't you think?

I think "Ball's would have done this...." is the same as any ideological comment about what the Tories do and dont want to do. In the end it is all speculation from both sides on what the other would have done or is doing. I think he would of just kept it going the way it was or even worse as thats what he said he would do. It's only now that Ed has realised that people have seen through the empty policies and that he has to come up with something or find himself under a few votes of confidence in the coming months.

I still think the government is doing what they can. It doesnt help when the Unions attempt ridiculous demands when their mates arent in power anymore. I would like Cameron to crush the Unions but he wont do that. I would like them to fix the welfare state but again they are fiddling with it to keep the perception that they are doing good rather than just getting on with it.

I think things like HS2 (a Labour plan originally) are a great idea (see that I praise the Labour party) to create jobs and at the same time improve public services. I think they should be doing more things like this to keep our own economy moving forward and get people working.

You have completely lost me now Andy.

con·spir·a·cist (kn-spîr-sst)

n.

One holding a conspiracy theory.

This was just a comment on some the links used for fact, whilst I use the evening standard. Big paper here in London, on a number of occassions those of the left leaning persuasion have used random bloggist of which one was convinced he was being watched by the CIA.

I'm struggling with your justification in that article re Boris as some sort of attack on Ken Livingston and Labour. How exactly does that work and how exactly does that affect the Labour party and people who prefer some of their policies?

I was taking the piss. The article made me smile as Ken automatically gave an excuse to not trying out coding. It was an irrelevant and jovial attack on labour. I was not being serious....

Maybe a bit more of justification of why you think Con Dem policies are right is the better option as they are the ones (unfortunately) that are killing the country at this moment?

I think this will just end up being an ideological arguement. I think the Tories arent perfect but they are steadying the ship and have successfully stopped a run on the country unlike what has happened to even the bigger players in europe (France close to losing credit rating despite the economy being in better condition than ours). I also believe that a lot of people struglling financially have put themselves into the position so have little sympathy. I also belive there are skilled jobs out there but people are to lazy to learn to do these tasks.

I assume by "different" you mean "none"?

Eh? Again what the hell are you talking about? - Labour had published plans (in its manifesto), the Tories had published plans even the Lib Dems had plans.

Maybe you subscribe to the Tory Plan A = only plan approach that Gideon and Cameron are taking? Maybe you can contribute by justifying how that is working? What do you think of the reports from Ireland about how they approached dealing with their deficit? What do you think about Gideon's complete U turn when talking about the Irish economy? - You know some of the real things in this thread not some made up stuff

Manifesto's are complete bollox, if you havent learnt that by now you are even more naive than you seem.

I think we can safely say that in hindsight it is easy to talk about what the parties thought about the boom year and in the end all parties were pretty much wrong (apart from Cable - on one of his many predictions - if you throw enough shit and all that).

As you seem to have chosen to ignore others comments I dont know why I need to type it out again. Summary, Ireland is under tough financial sactions from europe which is making it difficult for them. If we had followed Balls position we would have ended up in the same place and having our cuts chosen by the lenders. But I guess you will ignore it again, so why did I bother?

You were obviously trying to make some link between Abbott, Labour and Racism. To then claim you were not is frankly absurd

Nope my point was about hypocrisy, Im not sure it was that hard to fathom out.

Secondly who is comparing Cameron's comments to Abbott's? Only you as far as I can see. In a thread about the Con Dem Gvmt, the issue of crass comments from Cameron was raised. A Tory supporter, Tony, tried (and failed) to say that this was in some way an attempt by his opponents to deflect from Abbott. The whole thing about Cameron, (and previously from Boris and Gideon) was that their actions, language and the like were not those of people who are supposedly in power and did nothing more than to enforce the view that they are in the "flashman" mould that people often liken them to.

Really, Im pretty sure you were the one comparing and I was saying you cant compare, school playground analogies with bare faced racism.

Thirdly you talk about left wing conspiracy? :-) - you are now in the realms of fantasy land. Where has anyone said anything about lies and Gideon and stamp duty? That is a pretty big claim, it would be good if you could actually show that. Any chance? His performance as Chencellor is poor as I have said on many occasion, the lack of plan B etc etc, but that relates nowhere to what you are claiming.

I have no idea where you went off to here, I didnt use the word "conspiracy" I used thewword "conspiracist" which makes the whole statement very different do you not think? You should really learn to read things.....

As for the stamp duty thing http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/politics/article-24025519-osborne-will-take-on-stamp-duty-dodgers.do

Lastly your comment re open minded views, is actually a LOL moment. I suggest you look at your own comments for a perfect example of a quite narrow minded view.

Because I question your ideals and thoughts? Again you went on the attack, proved my point nicely.

As for the Boris thing, it made me smile which is why I posted the link, it makes me smile that Bloomberg and Boris were willing to give coding a go and Livingstone made excuses as to why he couldn't. Sounds like someone from the Labour party to me.

No, but had Labour got back in then Darling (who in fairness to him seemed to understand the need for major cuts) wouldn't have survived in post as Chancellor - as his statements since confirm. That would have put Ed Balls and his plan to massively increase debt into No. 11.

Our credit rating would have dropped off a cliff with the attendant rise in borrowing costs, the same downward spiral to bailouts we've seen in the PIGS.

Granted our overlords would have been the IMF only (instead of the IMF/EU/ECB troika currently demolishing democracy across Europe) but the result is still the same.

What bollox. You state that as if it were fact and as some sort of poor justification for your views.

Labour had different plans of dealing with the debt issues that the UK face and these plans were arguably more adaptable than the Tory ones when dealing with ever changing world conditions. Again though funny how the justification for the Tory heavy handed cuts is to say "ahhh but Labour". It's becoming quite tiresome now, it's as though the Tory supporters realise they what is happening with Gideon et al is actually pretty crap

I assume by "different" you mean "none"?

Tony Bliar is a Tory

Not quite, but certainly more centre ground than red Ed.

That's what made Nu Labour sort of electable....

Also why have a go at Boris, at least he wants to challenge himself unlike Ken http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16440126

As ever missing the point (and getting it very wrong in the process, been taking lessons from Ed I see) and if anything clarifying it. I didn't actually say Diane Abbot is a racist (a hypocritical idiot maybe), I said that Labour supporters seem to read what they want to read (like you just did) rather than what is actually said.

Yes you did say that she was a racist. Who else were you talking about if not Abbott? Flashman Cameron is an accusation that many, and not just Labour supporters, hold. He has a record of it that stretches back a while now. When you then see that his fellow Bullingdon members Gideon and Boris both have similar experiences of such behaviour there is a common link that cannot be ignored. (Note: Interesting when Boris used the Tourettes "joke" a couple of times Cameron insisted that he apologise - nice going Dave!).

These people are at the top of the Tory party and as PM, Chancellor and Mayor of London have far more responsibility to behave than you would expect from a backbench MP. That is not excusing Abbott at all before you jump on any high horse, Abbott often is a complete idiot with her words and actions and as said previously considering her opportunity to influence as a black woman in a high profile place in society, it's one serious opportunity missed.

As MereGreen pointed out, Cameron for all his spin and his attempts to suppress what is quite a nasty vindictive side fails and we see the real Cameron out there, usually quickly followed by a swift PR led apology. The Tory party have for a long time held the title of being "the nasty party", actions and behaviour we see from it's leadership show that the title is still fitting quite snugly on their heads

Nope, again another Labour supporter reads what they want to. I did not say she was racist, I said she made a racist comment, these are two mutually exclusive statements wether you think so or not. As I clarified, I think she is an idiot.

Do you think you can compare Abbot's comment to Cameron's? You seriously think they are the same? It is like saying Boris Johnson plays football like somebody with one leg. So should all amputees be offended by that comment?

Again you use lots of "they say", "they are called" etc and then when you provide an example it is usually from some left wing conspiracist. Anytime anything positive comes out for example Osbourne closing loopholes for stamp duty (something Labour didn't do in their 13 years) you ignore it or state it as lies.

I find in debate sometimes it is good to be open-minded rather than constantly on the attack....

Every now and again the real Cameron pokes out from under the PR inspired image he fosters. Its not a very pretty picture. Totally unfit for high office.

I always love how labour supporters use interpretation to assume what Cameron is thinking or doing without actually knowing. But when it comes to one of their own making racist comments they ignore it as a mistake and not what they are really thinking. Hypocrisy alive and well on the left....

Yes WOW - you got it right Dianne Abbot is certainly a right wing racist...!

As ever missing the point (and getting it very wrong in the process, been taking lessons from Ed I see) and if anything clarifying it. I didn't actually say Diane Abbot is a racist (a hypocritical idiot maybe), I said that Labour supporters seem to read what they want to read (like you just did) rather than what is actually said.

Every now and again the real Cameron pokes out from under the PR inspired image he fosters. Its not a very pretty picture. Totally unfit for high office.

I always love how labour supporters use interpretation to assume what Cameron is thinking or doing without actually knowing. But when it comes to one of their own making racist comments they ignore it as a mistake and not what they are really thinking. Hypocrisy alive and well on the left....

I bet Europe would have listened to the queen more than Cameron

Also how much does the royal family cost us compared with the group of society who's apathy towards social input means we fund their lives of relative obscurity?

Also how much did the riots cost the British taxpayer? I bet when you take into account all the court fees it's a hell of a lot.

Much rathe pay 69p to have the monarch than however much to fund a minority of underclass hell bent on avoiding any kind of personal or social achievement.

This times a million

As said previously I find it very interesting the Tory supporters apparent mass interest in this subject, the fact that a leading Tory in certain circles started this thread and that an agenda of attacking the unions seems to be the undercurrent, and as said it conveniently fits in with a lot of what Tory HQ has supposedly - according to Internet blogs etc - been telling the party faithful to do.

This made me laugh alot.

It's a conspiracy, it's a conspiracy...

Do you think people follow you home and watch you?

Congrats Andy. Boy or girl?

Thanks!! :-)

A boy, we are calling him "Blake"

My little future villa fan finally turned up last night

Today is due day but after what looked like a possible starter at 1:30am this morning has seemed to have quietened down since.

Still choose to work from home just in case...