John_Lerwill

So those circumstances were perfectly acceptable and act as an excuse for what Ellis did in the first few years but very similar circumstances now mean we have an excuse to have a pop at Lerner? Sorry I don't follow the logic of that. It's ok for Ellis to have those circumstances and get us relegated from a Champions of Europe starting point but it's not ok for Lerner? Sounds like Double Standards to me. Bicks - please read in context. I was simply enunciating exactly what happened for the benefit of the original writer, whose history was not clear. Why do you assume I am inferring something else? On the other hand, there are similarities that have transpired that connect RL to HDE in terms of decisions taken.

You know, though you make a very good point, the fact is that some of the posters here are (as you suggest) trying to obtain some kind of consensus. Swapping constructive points of view and possible ideals/solutions is a good thing i.m.o. As we really have to see what evolves through the January period there's not much point in doing anything else for now, except, perhaps, by just not going to matches. But that's down to individuals.

Good post - except for the opening quote!! Some people like to think HDE was a bad, bad ogre ... he perhaps had a lot of faults as chairman but he was and is human. A bit like us, perhaps!!

Fair point! I'd like to say that I meant that AM coming from Blews was not technically important. V.V.I. !!

Exactly! Ellis had over thirty years at the club and, amongst other things, managed to take a club who'd been Champions of Europe into the old second division within a space of just a few years. ... The main reign of HDE started at the end of 1982, just at the time that the club was losing a lot of money (for those days), the debacle about the North Stand was getting to its peak and - importantly - there was a national (and particularly Midlands-affected) depression. Apart from Harry Parkes' consortium, there was only HDE who was available to put the matters right. In trying to do so he had to tighten the purse strings, just like RL is now doing - no different. Unfortunately, the depression plus one or two poor managerial appointments (just like RL) saw relegation take place. But then he appointed Graham Taylor. Well, the opinion of a number is that a fight against relegation could again come round this season. That would be twice in two seasons if that occurs. What RL has done before is acknowledged. Let's see what happens in January.

Baz, there's no need to "take me up on those points". If you have a different point of view (as you appear to have) then we simply have to agree to disagree. It may all depend on what we hope for at Aston Villa. Your hopes and views on the club may be at a more cosmetic level, whereas I take history and gut feelings into account. Anyone who has had a deep affinity with the club will take a more emotional stance on how the club is run. I am sure everyone was happy with RL coming in and giving a really good face-lift to the old club and, importantly, giving important financial support to MON. However, although MON (OK it can be seen mostly in retrospect) made a few duff but expensive signings, there were pretty good signings he made that have been sold off at a good profit (plus Barry). Again, though his style of management was not perfect, there were some high spots during his tenure and a complete welcome after the 6 or 7 years of comparative sterility at VP under HDE. Now I feel we have lurched back into another period of sterlility, and after those 4 years of comparative success I am sure it has been a shock to all genuine Villa fans. And it has been done without proper communication, which you claim is not a serious issue. Well, alongside the big decisions, it may not be as important, but to fans in shock, they probably see it differently. RL's apparent need to scale back can be understood, but to combine that with AM's appointment and the lack of panache that we see in his teams adds to the shock. Meanwhile fans are expected to pay for STs and turn up as the obedient flock that RL seems to think they are. This whole approach seems to be a return to HDE's atitude towards the fans; yet another shock. I know that Blandy is keen to say that Doug was a far worse character, but I'm not going to get into an argument about that. I repeat that I feel we are lurching towards the relegation zone. We may avoid relegation, but that's not quite what was expected this season. If a hefty wad of money is paid out in January to keep us up, the question could well be asked, "why wasn't it invested in the summer to keep Villa in the top-half". And that investment may also have given better quality football. ... Or would it, under AM?! We have to wait till January to get a better clue as to how all this is to pan out. I forgot to add that reduction of investment, as it has shown this season, can be utterly unproductive and produce poor returns. Fans have already started staying away - put off by what they're watching - and players of quality will not want to come. This was precisely HDE's approach, therefore nothing much has changed in real terms since Doug went.

Baz, there's no need to "take me up on those points". If you have a different point of view (as you appear to have) then we simply have to agree to disagree. It may all depend on what we hope for at Aston Villa. Your hopes and views on the club may be at a more cosmetic level, whereas I take history and gut feelings into account. Anyone who has had a deep affinity with the club will take a more emotional stance on how the club is run. I am sure everyone was happy with RL coming in and giving a really good face-lift to the old club and, importantly, giving important financial support to MON. However, although MON (OK it can be seen mostly in retrospect) made a few duff but expensive signings, there were pretty good signings he made that have been sold off at a good profit (plus Barry). Again, though his style of management was not perfect, there were some high spots during his tenure and a complete welcome after the 6 or 7 years of comparative sterility at VP under HDE. Now I feel we have lurched back into another period of sterlility, and after those 4 years of comparative success I am sure it has been a shock to all genuine Villa fans. And it has been done without proper communication, which you claim is not a serious issue. Well, alongside the big decisions, it may not be as important, but to fans in shock, they probably see it differently. RL's apparent need to scale back can be understood, but to combine that with AM's appointment and the lack of panache that we see in his teams adds to the shock. Meanwhile fans are expected to pay for STs and turn up as the obedient flock that RL seems to think they are. This whole approach seems to be a return to HDE's atitude towards the fans; yet another shock. I know that Blandy is keen to say that Doug was a far worse character, but I'm not going to get into an argument about that. I repeat that I feel we are lurching towards the relegation zone. We may avoid relegation, but that's not quite what was expected this season. If a hefty wad of money is paid out in January to keep us up, the question could well be asked, "why wasn't it invested in the summer to keep Villa in the top-half". And that investment may also have given better quality football. ... Or would it, under AM?! We have to wait till January to get a better clue as to how all this is to pan out.

Now it's getting personal is it ...? Apart from the inaccuracy of that statement. No they didn't unless you want go back to pre-1975 after Matt Busby stood down. Just because they didn't win the League till Ferguson doesn't mean they had rubbish managers. They won the FA Cup a few times and played good football in the main. Who's talking about "success"? In Villa's current financial situation I'd be quite happy to see them finish above or even on half-way. I was referring to well-run clubs, even though (except Spurs) they're not rich. (snip) There might be ... just. But you're happy with that? If so, then there's no point in further discussion. All of which shows a complete misunderstanding of my (and others) statements.

You seem to simply skimp over the fact that those two clubs have a good model and it has worked in each case for 15 years or more. How Ferguson came about is not really relevant. The issue is that the system (who appointed and who was appointed) there has worked. You could also point to Everton, Spurs (now) and, in a smaller way, Stoke. Well, a lot of that is OK. In Villa's case, however, the latest appointment was clearly one to fit Villa's lack of money syndrome and (forgetting that he came from Blews, I don't think that's relevant) has a reputation for non-enterprising football - and it's shown. I could go on, but it's all in this thread by others able to speak on it more eloquently than I. AM's appointment and consequent level of football has been a bombshell. Many are objecting to paying what they do to watch the faire that's being provided. I could comment a lot more, but I've said that I will see what happens by January. Agreed, but the total scenario - Randy's scaling down of investment, plus AM's appointment plus the fact of lack of quality in the side - could be pointing Villa to relegation. Villa's position in the league is a false one. All this in addition to the lack of communication to the fans during all this process. As I keep on saying, it's not worth discussing more about these issues until January.

Whatever Makoun's valid point may have been (and I think it was only one) does not cover the litany of relevant issues that others have argued with. I don't think we need to keep on re-listing them ad infinitum.

Well, Man U haven't been doing too badly for the past 20 years, and Arsenal (in relation to their spend) are perhaps an even better model. But, Baz, we're concerned here about Villa - not the others. RL may be a perfectly nice guy with better motives than many chairmen (particularly the overseas ones), but the issue we're facing is the set up that he has created at Villa Park which (i.m.o.) is not fit for purpose when it comes to making football decisions. If you want to see Villa go downhill under the chairmanship of a nice guy who appears not able to make effective football appointments, that's up to you. As I keep on saying to people - I was there and saw that machinery in operation. Any set up that allows a supporter of 60 years (and acknowledged, if I may say, to be deeply knowledgable about the club's history) to be marched through the gates as though he's committed a crime, must have something wrong about it. At the time I wondered and hardly said anything, but having seen the decisions of the last 18 months at the public level then I can see some of the same weak thinking that was used at my own dismissal. The situation is serious i.m.o. but hopefully correctable.

It doesn't look like it. In the past 18 months (in his further managerial appointments) RL has shown he continues to misunderstand the situation and what is required. And most of that is down to the fact of whom he consults to make major decisions (PF). That individual appears to be the weak link in the structure in respect of making serious football decisions. There are several here that agree that the appointment of a Director of Football (with powers) is needed. Someone with football nous and (perhaps more importantly) someone with a real feel for the Villa and its supporters. Perhaps Brian Little?

...I certainly like the idea of positivity. Problem is, how to convey your points to the board? John, Do you not think that someone at Villa scans fan forums occasionally? It's probably not the most satisfying task that you can give to an enthusiastic Villa employee at the moment, but the combined experience of committed Villa fans may occasionally point the club in a direction that the Board could benefit from. I'm talking rubbish aren't I! When I was there up to 2010 there was a guy who scanned the various forums, but my assessment was that he did not have a brief to do quite what you are suggesting - i.e. a positive role. It seemed to me that he was purely reporting on any explosive situations cropping up (it might have been - though I might sound conceited - that he was just checking on what I was doing as he reported me on one occasion!). Maybe that role has developed since ... I don't know. Going by the continued lack of awareness of what many fans are looking for I'd say his role hasn't changed!!

Good post except I'm not sure RL is really aware as to what the problems are!! The business of a football-orientated CEO came up earlier in the thread, but then someone suggested a Director of Football to allow PF to concentrate on admin. I like that idea ... And I certainly like the idea of positivity. Problem is, how to convey your points to the board?

Bloomin' 'eck, what you've just outlined is near to what was running through my thoughts!! I feel very strongly that there ought to be fans' representation - but I fear (gulp!) that JF is probably too close to PF for that to work properly. An elected fans' representation would surely be a nice tweek to your excellent suggestion?

One of the most relevant posts so far. Randy clearly needs a Director of Football with powers. I have intimated that the CEO should be a football man, but a DofF probably makes sense.

Results-wise "by January". Board's action-wise: "by end January". OK Now? 8)

I'm not really concerned about getting into a dialogue about that, Houlston. I am essentially just concerned about what is going to happen by the end of January and that if a crisis does loom that the board's actions will help Villa to avoid relegation this year.

Exactly the key being what action will be taken, but by January regardless of what happens in the league it will show is no more than we know today about the board. Well, I disagree. I think the situation will reveal the abilities or non-abilities of the board more minutely than before. That's just my opinion. We can agree to differ.

I totally agree! AM has a big task to keep Villa in the top-12 to January to avoid what would probably be panic signings.

Why do you keep banging on about "by January"? Where has this sudden time scale come from and what relevance does it have? Other than we have a hard set of games coming up so there is a fair chance we wont be as high as we are now. But in the overall scheme of things it wont really show much. The end of January will see whether any investment is made and the end of the season will show how well McLeish has done. Futhermnore players contracts will then end so we can then see whether any money is invested from that saving. So really in the great scheme of things benchmarking by January is not only pointless but it will show nothing about the boards intentions than what we know today. I'm not the only one concerned about the upcoming fixtures, Houlston - this period has been regarded with some trepidation for some time. You seem to disregard the possibility of Villa having another affair with the relegation zone this season! You're probably assuming we may sink to 12th/13th at worst? If a relegation fight (another one!) does happen (and I pray it doesn't), a lot of ire will be released towards the Villa management. Why? Simply because many fans didn't want AM, added to what's regarded generally as being mismanagement in 2010-11. If Villa are in the bottom 6 (let's say) byJanuary it will interesting to see what action is taken. For example, I assume that money is available, but just who will Villa be able to sign this time to make a difference. Last January it was different as Bent came in but he had Ash and Downing to help him. This year's midfield has shown nothing to speak of. I very much hope that Jenas proves to be able to provide the x-factor ... and stays fit. That's why January is significant.

A very fair summing up! :-) But again ... let's see what happens by January!

Yes, you're right - and praiseworthy principles too. But why suddently (after 4 years of spend) has confused many, especially with the appointment of AM. The international break seems to have caused some of us to forget the issues that concern many! :winkold: Some of us have been particularly concerned about (i) the lack of points obtained against relatively weak opposition (ii) the lack of watchable football (till the Norwich game, admittedly) and (iii) how we are to get through the next 6 weeks. And, therefore, (iv) whether there will be another relegation fight this season. We are left to wait to see what happens over the next 2 or 3 months. Why fans would not want "messages" I'm not sure! :?

and took them 7 years to get that team competitive after years of finishing 5th adn 6th adn continually selling best players. after realising a scattergun approach in transfer window didnt work They made a mess of Jol leaving and then appointing Ramos who was flavour of the month but couldn't communicate properly and sold Keane, Berbatov and Defoe all in 6 months and replaced them with Frazier Campell, Pav and Giovani! :shock: No wonder they had that infamous 2 points from 8 games and then Redknapp came in and the rest is history. Can McLeish be our Redknapp picking up the mess after a foriegn disaster? I doubt it but we need to steady the club a bit. Not sure that the responders' comments equate to BigJohn's main point (in blue). I agree with his comment, that all the talk of big money being needed is over-hyped.

It was on the OS nearly 24 hours later, wasn't it? Bit late. And I only read it because of some other kind soul on VT sending me a copy. It didn't have to be done that way round. No, it's not a question a "moan" at all. If you read what I say about RL I'm actually quite supportive ... fine intentions but does not give the impression of being able to manage very effectively. Apparently there are problems at the Browns as well, but there are people that know far more about that than I. Now, I'm supportive of RL even though I was wrongfully dismissed by his team nearly 2 years ago. Me, a supporter of 60 years. Having worked there I can see some of the cracks in the organisation that maybe others haven't been able to see, and which have occurred because of the kind of team he's pulled together. Nevertheless, I'm not dismssive of RL, but he does have a way to go. At present he's still seen as walking on water for many following his input to the club in the first 4 years, but this season is critical. ... Very critical.