sharkyvilla

If we go down - I think itll be this season rather than next. If mcleish has the chance to do what he wants then we'll be marginally better next season I think. If he is kept and isnt backed in the summer, then we are **** - and then I'll have issues with Lerner.

I dont really give a **** if im not in the 'cool' kids club on here, trent.

Cool kids?

It has nothing to do with being 'cool' and everything to do with having some common sense and the ability to see that Lerner has made far more mistakes than just appointing McLeish.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion but I just think you will struggle to find anyone who shares it.

I agree with lexicon's sentiment, although I do think Lerner has made mistakes beyond hiring McLeish. However, I think some of the criticism of Lerner on here is completely over the top. Particularly as I think everyone is actually fully aware of the reality of what has panned out over the last few years.

Lerner threw money at MON with the hope the he would achieve Champion's League football and change the commercial fortunes of the club. As MON came close year on year, Lerner continued to throw money at him until, having failed for the third year to make it, he was forced to begin a process of rartionalisation (especially with the financial fair play rules looming) with the hope of bringing the kids through before perhaps having another crack.

We're now a couple of years into that process. Lerner was sold on the idea that Houllier had a track record of bringing youngsters through and a fantastic scouting network with which to supplement our own promising youngsters. I still believe that if Houllier hadn't fallen ill, had a full close season, and had been able to bring more of his own players in, we would be starting to see progress. It wasn't to be. Was it a mistake to hire McLeish - possibly, or perhaps, given the limited number of managers willing to take on the role, he was the best of a bad bunch.

For me, much as I loved him, MON made far more mistakes than Lerner. Perhaps Lerner's biggest mistake beyond hiring McLeish was putting so much trust in MON. People have been through it many times before on here, but some of the contracts MON signed squad players on were criminal. He failed to make the correct signings at crucial times and worse of all, when the cash dried up he spat his dummy out and **** off.

Totally agree with this post. I too loved O'Neill but sadly at none of the clubs he has managed has he left a decent legacy and we have been probably left with the worst of the lot. Randy just couldn't afford to bankroll O'Neill without actually getting into the Champions League as he isn't rich enough. Since then we've haemmorhaged money because O'Neill got such poor value. Up until he appointed McLeish which was always a disaster waiting to happen I think Lerner made pretty decent calls, some of them quite hard ones to make. I'd love us to get rid of McLeish in the summer, get rid of the deadwood and get David Dein in with a manager well versed in 21st century football with a reasonable transfer kitty. It probably won't happen though.

Can't recall the last time Barca had a player wrongly sent off?

But yeah, there's always going to be one team that gets more decision there way than another team. To say otherwise is to say that either refs are all perfect or that decisions perfectly balance out - neither are true.

Thiago's sending off last week was wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cleSnyEHN6c

They were only 1-0 up at the time but got on with it and won 2-0

I love cricket as much as football tbh. Snooker I've loved since I was small and I quite like watching rugby league players batter each other all night long. Not too arsed about rugby union, a bit too technical for my small brain.

I would love to have heard the final line-up of Oasis with Liam's vocals of 94-98. Chris Sharrock is a beast on drums and the wall of noise from Gem, Noel and Andy was quality, shame Liam's voice went downhill.

As captains go he has been excellent for us when there's been all sorts of division in the dressing room and mess on and off the field. Wish him all the best for a full and speedy recovery.

Well said Mazrim.

You hate a manager who saw us winning games and challenging top 4. You loved a manager who saw us losing games and fighting relegation. You now hate a manager for doing exactly the same.

It's very strange.

Actually, I used to quite like MON before he threw his toys out of the pram five days before the start of a new season. Like some on here I used to think he was the messiah but after he left I realised that the legacy he left behind wasn't all that great. I also realised that he spent a lot of money and that the job he did while decent, wasn't the sutff of miracles like people make out.

I never loved Houllier. I really don't know where you get this from. As always, putting words into my mouth.

Yes, I do hate McLeish, but it's more than a bit unfair to lump the two together. Overall McLeish has been working under easier circumstances. Also with McLeish, there have never really been any good signs where as with Houllier there were at least some. The most important point at all is McLeish's negative attitude. I know we'd sometimes surrender before the game had even started under Houllier but we seem to be doing this way more often under McLeish. Even the games we don't surrender we still don't put up much of a fight. We never dominate teams. We play the worst football I've ever seen.

Of course, this will probably all go over your head and you'll accuse me of loving Houllier and being hypocritical for hating McLeish in a couple of weeks time.

How is it that if you didn't hate Houllier you must have loved him?

God knows. I criticised Houllier a number of times and have said on multiple occasions that whatever the circumstances we shouldn't have been in a relegation battle.

I don't see how McLeish has been working under easier circumstances. OK Houllier didn't get the preseason but he had Downing and Young plus £30m to spend in January. McLeish came in with Downing and Young getting sold and less than £20m to spend plus the hatred of 90% of our own fans to contend with. He has been shit but Houllier was shitter imo.

Yeah Nesta and Ambrosini were excellent at keeping Messi quiet, but the way Barca set up was likely to keep Messi quiet. They had no attacking threat down the left at all meaning that when Messi dropped deep Sanchez was isolated. The pitch seemed to be cutting up too which didn't help the game much imo. I think both sides will be happy with the result though.

I think he shows glimpses but this is not a very good environment for youngsters to thrive in at the moment. I'm sure he'll develop over the next couple of seasons if we get a manager that can get some enthusiasm back in the club and the team. Otherwise I get a feeling that he and most of the other players are on a hiding to nothing.

I still blame the wage situation solely on O'Neill.

Seems a pretty stupid thing to do. It's basically blindly supporting Lerner.

Surely unless the owner takes charge of transfer activity like Ambramovic, it is the manager (or sporting director or whatever you call them at some clubs) who is in charge of getting value for money. All the owner does is give a certain budget for them to work to.

The Houllier appointment was only bad in hindsight??? Most people on VT didn’t rate him and knew where it was going.

I'm pretty sure he was brought in with the brief of changing the footballing culture of the club over time. In those terms I think he was a decent choice given his reputation in football development and with Lyon. If Randy knew that instead he would take an instant dislike to half the team, ostracise them, look totally disinterested and need a £30m bail-out in January then he wouldn't have appointed him. It's last season and Houllier's poor job that really set us back imo.

It's his fault for the financial mess we are in. It's his fault he hired houllier and it's his fault he hired Mcleish.

If he hadn't taken over from doug at a point when we were falling as a club there is no way he'd get away with how crap we are right now.

Still amazes me people are so quick to make excuses for him and blindly back him.

How can anyone look at the browns and still believe Lerner is going to do anything good at this club?

The Houllier appointment was only bad in hindsight. He let Lerner down badly and was the biggest disaster of the lot - he had Downing and Young plus £30m to spend and we were left with those two going, a divided squad, no manager and no hope to attract a decent manager in. Nobody really gives a shit about the Browns, they have won **** all in his lifetime let alone since he's owned them. Plus it's a gay sport and Clevelend is a shithole nobody in their right mind would want to go to.

Am I correct in recalling that our accounts show a wage increase since O'Neill's departure? If so that tells me all I need to know about Lerner's financial stewardship.

It's been mighty tough to get rid of O'Neill's deadwood though. Not sure what Randy could do other than to pay off their contracts which would cost as much plus you need to get new players in. We've sold our best players and as a result have needed to replace them. I think this will change in the summer when we can finally get rid of Heskey and co. I still blame the wage situation solely on O'Neill. Lerner will have given him a certain wage budget to give him the best chance of succeeding but O'Neill got so little value for money it is untrue.

Had he sorted out the O'Neill problem much earlier, and appointed anyone but McLeish, then things would be so much rosier.

If's and but's.

He didn't do that and now we are really deep in the shit and things aren't anywhere near being rosy. We've been in some sort of transition phase for the past 18 months with a terrible manager and we look like relegation fodder.

He needs to sell as soon as possible.

I just don't see who he could possibly sell to. If you don't end up with an oil baron, you end up with a crook. I'll always stick up for Lerner apart from with McLeish which was a gamble that would never work. We need a football powerbroker like David Dein to work with a manager who knows what 21st century football is all about

Anyone see Thiago's red card? Even if it was handball, which it wasn't, in no way should that offence be a yellow card. It's ridiculous that someone can get sent off for a second yellow for unintentional handball. This trial they are doing is silly.

Why the **** does he shoehorn Heskey into the team against the likes of City and Arsenal? It's just mindbogglingly stupid and going to be incredibly unpopular. I try to have an open mind with McLeish but he just makes it so hard to give him support. Despite how crap we've been we're in a position where we won't get relegated and we might as well give the players who have a future at the club a go and gain some momentum towards the summer rebuild. But then he takes such a backward step like this. Why? We'd all be a bit more forgiving (well, not all obviously) if we got tonked in a slightly more ballsey way than this. Bollocks to him.

The ref made the decisions that needed to be made. I don't see what the problem is. Real bring these things on themselves and really need to get rid of Mourinho in the summer. Let him win the league and then **** off in the summer.

What get's up my nose is the way Man C fans start crying or looking really down cause they are behind or losing a game,I mean they have won virtually nothing since about 1958 so you would think they would be used to losing.

I think that highlights the difference between sets of fans who are used to success and those who have had disaster after disaster followed by a sudden change in fortune. They just expect everything to go tits up. I don't mind City, if there was a team other than Villa that got bought up and added the likes of Aguero, Mario and Silva to the Prem then they would pretty much be my choice. I'll probably hate them in 2 years time mind.

He also went a while this season where he was trying it and getting it wrong. I think they drew with Villareal and he had a couple of great one on ones and messed up at least one chip/lob and keepers in general were learning to stand up. I was thinking 'it's time to put that one back in the locker, son' but he's gone and just got better at it instead. The way his brain must be able to calculate angles at high speed is phenomenal. It's not just his finishing but all the other stuff he does as well.

yes, its on trial this season i think

Really? That seems totally unnecessary to me

I still think Barca are the better side and have themselves to blame for being so far behind. I can't deny Mourinho's ability to organise a team worth about half a billion into one that can beat everyone other than Barca though.

the most amazing team of the past 20 years

so good tehy 10 points behind in the league this season

Due to dodgy decisions :winkold:

Anyone else think Messi wants to be Spanish.

Wannabe Spaniard.

Wasn't he offered Spanish citizenship at a young age but turned it down?

Yeah that ITV4 documentary the other night (worth a watch on youtube) said that he turned it down. Also when Guardiola took over as Barca coach Messi was in dispute with the club over being allowed to go to the Olympics. The club won in court but then Guardiola said that he should go. The Argies then won the tournament. He does seem to genuinely want to play for them, just the defence was a shambles that got punished by Germany at the world cup. They were probably playing the best attacking football at that stage, just collapsed at the wrong time. Maradona's 86 team never did that, they only conceded 3 in the whole tournament.

Tbf that really is a great article. Things can get so one sided you need things like that to put into perspective. My issue is that we had shown signs of improvement until the horrific City selection, which still baffles me to this day, and was a catastrophic PR disaster. We're only 4 points off 8th now and I think it's crucial that we go into the summer rebuild with at least some momentum, otherwise McLeish's job will continue to be made impossible by the fans.

Funny you should mention how things can get one-sided because the article you're heaping praise is incredibly one-sided as well.

I know, that's the point, that the truth is somewhere in the middle and people's prejudices cloud their judgment.

Tbf that really is a great article. Things can get so one sided you need things like that to put into perspective. My issue is that we had shown signs of improvement until the horrific City selection, which still baffles me to this day, and was a catastrophic PR disaster. We're only 4 points off 8th now and I think it's crucial that we go into the summer rebuild with at least some momentum, otherwise McLeish's job will continue to be made impossible by the fans.

The other week Valencia beat Stoke 1-0 at the Britannia a few days before Messi hit 4 against Valencia. I think that's as close as we'd get to an answer to that question. La Liga is miles better than the Premier League. The technique is in a different class and what they lack in strength compared to the PL they make up for in pressing football. Messi is out of this world. It's like having David Silva plus Cristiano Ronaldo all in one.

22 goals in 67 caps for Argentina.

I think if Messi could inspire Argentina to World Cup glory then that would cement his status as the best player ever.

He has proved how good he is in club football.

Now he needs to do it on the international stage.

Possibly, but if he wins the Ballon D'Or 5 to 10 times in a row I would consider it a better achievement than being part of a World Cup winning team. Maradona was notoriously brilliant in 86 but the Argies only conceded 3 goals in the whole tournament and made match-winning contributions that much easier. In 2010 the defence was a shambles and Maradona was a complete nutcase. I can't imagine there ever being a better footballer than Messi myself.