Redman

Any news on Downing signing that new contract?

A few rumours floating about that he's stalling...

Houllier has managed two Premier League clubs and had serious health problems at each of them.

Something tells me he isn't cut out for this lark.

Without meaning to sound cold-hearted, Villa have a business to run and the sooner Ged is thanked and paid-off, the better.

The price will vary depending on if Wigan stay up or not, won't it?

Fixed. Please leave red to the mods as per the forum guidelines.

Sorry - my bad.

I even did you the dignity of not changing it to blue

Much appreciated.

If we can't agree on anything else, at least we all share a healthy dislike of the colour blue.

Fixed. Please leave red to the mods as per the forum guidelines.

Sorry - my bad.

Spending. It was always the gross that got reported, never the net. Liverpool turned over a shitload of players under Rafa. A lot of money went out and a lot came back in. The net spend was £20m a season - not a huge amount for a club like Liverpool. More than the Mancs (but only because of the Ronaldo sale), considerably less than Chelsea and more than Arsenal (who we out-performed). Remember these were the clubs we were expected to compete with. And remember we were coming from further back when Benitez arrived - he had an entire squad to rebuild

Rafa won the European Cup in his first season with Gerard Houllier's players, then it all went steadily downhill.

Jerzy Dudek

Steve Finnan

Jamie Carragher

Sami Hyypiä

Djimi Traoré

Xabi Alonso

Luis García

Steven Gerrard ©

John Arne Riise

Harry Kewell

Milan Baroš

Only two Rafa signings in there. So, if he had to rebuild - but he pretty much inherited an all-conquering team - how did it all go so awfully shit?

That was hardly an all-conquering team. We finished fifth that season. Anyway, the stalwarts of that CL campaign were Carra and Hyypia (a partnership established by Rafa. Ged played Carra at full-back), Luis Garcia with his 5 goals (a Rafa signing), Didi Hamann (Ged signing coming to the end of his career so needed replacing) and Gerrard (obviously).

Quite how we won the champions league that year, I'll never know. Any red will tell you how much better the team was that made the final again two years later. Okay, so we lost. That's football.

And herein lies the problem. Gerrard and Carragher have far too much power at the club.

Correction: They HAD too much power. Christian Purslow was trying to sell the club which mean't keeping the top players settled. He could either side with Gerrard and Carra and replace Rafa or side with Reina and Torres and keep him.

He took Fulham from almost certain relegation to a Europa League Final. A Europa League Final is about the best Liverpool could hope for at the moment. Top four material they are not.

You have to give credit to Roy for the Europa League run- That's probably what earn't him the Liverpool job. Purslow, Gerrard and Carra made the same mistake you just did and took that achievement as evidence he could manage one of the biggest clubs in world football.

The fact you were competing with Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea and Benitez was trying to buy Barry and Robbie Keane, pretty much outlines my reasons for not wanting him.

They weren't players that got my pulse racing, I admit.

But his policy that summer was clear - bring in proven premier league performers and have a serious go at the title (the next season we did). At that time, he was being accused of favouring Europe and this was his way of addressing it.

So what did he do next season? Forced Alonso out (your best player by far imo) and replaced him with Aquilani who hasn't worked out in your club at all.

I don't trust his judgement in the market. He'll probably do something similar here.

That isn't what happened. This is what I'm talking about - the media put out misinformation and the masses swallow it whole.

Alonso was for sale the same summer we were pursuing Barry. At that point, he'd been off-form or injured for two full seasons. He was available for £16m but nobody would pay it. He went on to have the season of his life and Real paid £35m for him the following summer. It's true he and Benitez didn't get along in the end but this is why he left: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/5578084/Xabi-Alonso-warns-that-tax-will-drive-top-players-away.html

The summer Aquilani came in, Christian Purslow was in place as MD. He is a specialist in managing distressed assets and was effectively appointed by RBS to seek investment and reduce the debt. There was no transfer budget of which to speak, we were restricted to doing business with clubs who still owed us for previous transfers. Hence Glen Johnson (Peter Crouch money) and Aquilani (Riise money).

Aquilani is top player, in my opinion. But he arrived injured. But if he wasn't injured, we likely couldn't have afforded him or competition would have been more fierce. As it was, Roma agreed to this payment structure:

- 4 cash instalments of

- - 5 million EURO upfront

- - 3 million EURO by 4th January 2010

- - 7 million EURO by June 30th 2010

- - 5 million EURO by June 30th 2011.

So he played very little football and yeah - we missed Alonso. But when Aquilani was fit, he showed signs of his class. 6 assists in 9 starts. But there are too many shades of grey there for the media. He missed most of the season, therefore he was a flop.

"So why didn't you keep him?" I hear you ask. That's a question only Roy Hodgson can answer.

The fact you were competing with Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea and Benitez was trying to buy Barry and Robbie Keane, pretty much outlines my reasons for not wanting him.

They weren't players that got my pulse racing, I admit.

But his policy that summer was clear - bring in proven premier league performers and have a serious go at the title (the next season we did). At that time, he was being accused of favouring Europe and this was his way of addressing it.

Benitez would be a disaster. We've already had one manager in MON who pissed loads of money away... Benitez, judging by his Liverpool career... would be very similar.

I never understood why Liverpool fans loved Benitez so much, thought he was a complete idiot myself. I think everyone else did... bar Liverpool fans.

So so so negative. Always set out not to lose rather than win. No thanks.

I can tell you why if I'm allowed. Don't want to annoy anybody with more Liverpool posts.

Carry on...

As an outsider, you only get to hear about so much of what goes on at other clubs, don't you? And what you do get to hear is filtered through the press and Sky Sports - all of whom had it in for Benitez.

• Tactics. Every time Liverpool conceded a goal from a corner (even though it wasn't very often), Andy Gray was all over it decrying zonal marking. To this day, never have I seen a conceded goal blamed on man-to-man marking. Rotation was another one. Rafa was forever lambasted for rotating his players as if he was an idiot. Yet statistically, Fergie rotated even more.

• Spending. It was always the gross that got reported, never the net. Liverpool turned over a shitload of players under Rafa. A lot of money went out and a lot came back in. The net spend was £20m a season - not a huge amount for a club like Liverpool. More than the Mancs (but only because of the Ronaldo sale), considerably less than Chelsea and more than Arsenal (who we out-performed). Remember these were the clubs we were expected to compete with. And remember we were coming from further back when Benitez arrived - he had an entire squad to rebuild

• Signings. Very rarely first choice, very rarely done quickly and the budget changed constantly. Sorry to bring up the Gareth Barry saga again but it's a great example. That summer, Rafa wanted Barry and Robbie Keane. But he only wanted Keane if he already had Barry. I don't know what his vision was but it included either both of them or just Barry. But after months of messing around, Rick Parry bought Keane and then the budget was cut. No money for both. Parry was gone shortly afterwards. So was Keane and the money received for him.

• Brand of football. Benitez's Valencia is proof that he isn't an inherently negative manager. As I see it, he had to make a compromise. Either be Arsene Wenger - build a side that plays pretty football but wins nothing. Or build a squad to compete with the Mancs and Chelsea without their budget. He went for the latter.

Benitez would be a disaster. We've already had one manager in MON who pissed loads of money away... Benitez, judging by his Liverpool career... would be very similar.

I never understood why Liverpool fans loved Benitez so much, thought he was a complete idiot myself. I think everyone else did... bar Liverpool fans.

So so so negative. Always set out not to lose rather than win. No thanks.

I can tell you why if I'm allowed. Don't want to annoy anybody with more Liverpool posts.

Hodgson had no chance from the very outset. As soon as the fans knew he'd got the job ahead of Dalglish he was ****.

That also simply isn't true.

Naturally, the fans favoured Dalglish. But mainly, at the time, for non-footballing reasons. Nobody had any idea how well he could perform after all that time out of the game but Liverpool was a basket case last summer. We needed somebody to unify the club - exactly as Kenny has done.

We needed Kenny more as a saviour than manager.

Even though the majority didn't want Roy, I wouldn't say it was because he wasn't Kenny. The majority were also willing to give the guy a chance. It wasn't even the poor results that did for him - it was his reaction to them, he defeatist attitude and tendency to put his foot in it. I can dig out a list of examples if you're interested. It was embarrassing, to be honest. And it made the appalling football impossible to stomach.

But the final straw was when he criticised the fans for the sit-in protest. That's when the "Hodgson for England" chants started. There was no way back from that.

I still think Benitez would be a real coup if you could get him. You'll struggle to find a more talented manager.

Is Roy Evans a coup as well?

I won't bang that drum anymore though. Last summer, I was told by any number of non-Liverpool fans what a good manager Roy Hodgson was even though I knew he was the wrong man.

Roy Hodgson has proven by taking Fulham from the brink of relegation to a UEFA Cup final and the miracles he has worked with West Brom in such a short time that he is a very good manager - and that is disregarding the successes he has had on foreign shores. He just wasn't a big enough name for Liverpool, and was forced out by the uberspacktards Gerrard and Carragher.

You're ill-informed. Gerrard and Carragher approved Roy's appointment from the start and Carragher in particularly backed him right until his position became untenable.

Roy's a good manager if you want somebody to take your relegation-threatened team into mid-table, sure. But that's his limit. The size of his name wasn't the problem.

I still think Benitez would be a real coup if you could get him. You'll struggle to find a more talented manager.

I won't bang that drum anymore though. Last summer, I was told by any number of non-Liverpool fans what a good manager Roy Hodgson was even though I knew he was the wrong man.

Van Gaal for me, top pedigree, wont take any shit, will attract top players

Major League asshole, though, and I think Randy prefers more cerebral, less abrasive personalities. That's why Fat Sam or Martin Jol won't get the job either. It'll be someone like Klinnsman or Rijkaard.

Van Gaal would be quality.

If what you say is true about Randy then I doubt Rafael Benitez would get the job as well.

I'm sure Rafa would be as good as gold for a reasonable, straight chairman like Lerner.

... but not for an irrational, homosexual chairman like Hicks?

Exactly

Van Gaal for me, top pedigree, wont take any shit, will attract top players

Major League asshole, though, and I think Randy prefers more cerebral, less abrasive personalities. That's why Fat Sam or Martin Jol won't get the job either. It'll be someone like Klinnsman or Rijkaard.

Van Gaal would be quality.

If what you say is true about Randy then I doubt Rafael Benitez would get the job as well.

I'm sure Rafa would be as good as gold for a reasonable, straight chairman like Lerner.

@ Redman

Benitez would be another bad fit for us.

No denying he has pedigree but just look how many players he went through at Liverpool . The amount of players he bought only to sell on the next season or not even play was ridiculous.

His transfer record was botched at best (id make a list but it would be just too long) and the football was pretty dour too and he seems to have lost the plot in past 2 years - just look what happened at Inter Milan . Admitedly that was always going to be difficult after what Mourinho did there but even so.

Another ex-Liverpool manager is not the way to go.

Benitez would give Houllier a good run for his money in talking about how great they are also.

Plenty of Liverpool fans would agree with you.

But I'll speak for myself and say that having followed the daily narrative of what went on at Liverpool during the Benitez regime, my view is completely different.

There was a high turnover of players - that came from having to rebuild the squad but also having to rebuild it on a budget. I remember signing players like Crouch, Pennant, Bellamy, Riera, Sissoko, Voronin. All underwhelming signings at the time - players we knew would prove not good enough to compete for major honours but all players we signed anyway to make up the numbers and most of whom were sold on for a profit. This is what I mean about having to make compromises. No player on that list would be first choice for a club challenging for titles.

I'm not saying Rafa didn't make mistakes (like all managers do) but for some reason, all mitigation is ignored in his case (and there is a shitload of mitigation).

He definitely lost his way at the end but the amazing thing is that he didn't lose it sooner. He was the one man driving Liverpool in something like the right direction when the club was at war. But how long could it realistically last? There'd been an impending sense of doom hanging over Anfield since early 2008 - it was a matter of time before the shit hit the fan but that wasn't until late 2009.

And about Inter. Read this: http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2010/09/11/2111938/calcio-debate-will-inter-regret-not-making-any-summer

Last summer, Moratti broke the habit of a lifetime and bought no players. Then when the injuries started to mount (did you see how many?) he was happy to let Rafa carry the can for the results. It was just more of the same bullshit he'd escaped from at Liverpool - no wonder he walked.

Redman, I respectfully disagree. Liverpool were reknowned, as far as I can remember, for their boring 0-0 defensive football under Benitez. It may have won you the Champions League, fair play, but I think I speak for a lot of Villa fans when I say - we'd like to see some attractive football down at VP. It's been a while after all.

Benitez himself is such a detestable character, it would really sadden me if we got him in.

It's true - plenty of Liverpool supporters grew disillusioned with the football. However, I think it's a mistake to label Rafa as inherently defensive. After all, it was his Valencia side demolishing us in style home-and-away that led to his appointment in the first place.

The way I see it, he was forced into making compromises at Liverpool. Expected to challenge for the title and CL with a lower budget than our rivals, we ended up building a squad of cheaper, competitive players than expensive, stylish ones (Dirk Kuyt being the best example).

Give him control, give him a supportive board who don't bullshit him and I've no doubt he'd turn you into a force. It might not be the most positive football at first - the priority would be making you difficult to beat. But his ethos is based on continuous improvement so as long as everybody continued to buy into his vision, the fun times would follow.

As for his character, the guy is an absolute gent. As an example, he and his wife donated £96,000 to the Hillsborough Family Support Group when he left Liverpool and here he is at the Hillsborough memorial a month ago:

He is also fiercely loyal. At numerous points during his time with Liverpool he could have accepted approaches from Real Madrid, Juventus, Bayern or Inter - and who could have blamed him considering the runaround the previous owners were giving him?

Okay, so he had no time for the press and he wasn't afraid to unsettle players from other clubs. But that was just him protecting the interests of his own club.

Anyway, I've made my case for Rafa - I'll shut up now.

I could understand why you lot wouldn't be interested in Benitez after the whole Barry tapping-up saga etc... but I reckon it'd be a serious coup if you could get him.

Tactically, the guy is second to none. The British media did a proper hatchet job on the guy and convinced the masses he's a lesser manager than he is.

I think he'd be a good fit for you.

I don't think anybody need worry about Downing going anywhere.

It'll just take the edge off Young's departure if Villa management can say "But look - Stew's staying" as if there was any danger of him leaving.

In all seriousness, I don't think this was ever a win-win situation for Liverpool.

They claim to be members of the so called "Big 4", but it really is a "Big 3" with Liverpool lagging some way behind. OK, signing Torres has been a massive success for them, but its not had the desired effect of putting them on equal footing with Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal. Liverpool really are the Big 3's poor neighbours.

From a club with a rich history, instead of hearing about success, all we hear is boardroom unrest, debts, and the potential of falling further behind the Big 3.

So it really shouldn't have to be a win-win situation - as if Liverpool really were in touch with the Big 3, they'd have "won" this already.

So let's move onto Redman's latter "win" in the "win-win" situation.

If Barry doesn't sign for Liverpool, what have Liverpool gained? The chance to sign him in January?

That's clearly a possibility, but with Barry having 2 years left, its not like they can get a pre-contract agreement, or expect a reduction on Villa's asking price. Furthermore, they'll have even less money in Jan '09 than they do now.

Also, there's the distinct possiblity that Barry could change his mind. Consider (i) Liverpool struggle in the Champs Lge, (ii) Villa progress in the UEFA cup and (iii) Barry maintains his England place for the World Cup qualifiers. On the flipside, he's had a bad few weeks, but he's only been punished for the NoTW article and is clearly back in the fold.

Yes, clearly, there's a lot of "ifs" in here, so I'll add some certainty.

It's certain that Liverpool will come out of this in a poor light.

(1) Certainly, their No. 1 target this summer was Barry, and if they fail to land him it just makes them look "also rans" against the Big 3. Liverpool fans can talk about "Rafa's mind games" all they want, but if Man U were in for Barry at the start of the summer, they'd be enjoying his services, not looking like a bunch of cheapskates.

(2) They've clearly breached Prem Lge rules K3 and K8, so we're within our rights to queue up behind Spurs with our complaint. Wouldn't it be funny if they got a suspended punishment from the alleged Keane tapping, only to find we're waiting in the wings with ours?!!

So to sum up, there's lots at risk for Liverpool. If they fail to get in the top 4 this season without being able to demonstrate (or afford) their fans' ambitions, as the man said, Gerrard will consider his future and Torres will be at Stamford Bridge before you can say Abramovich.

Win-win? Not on your life.

As you say, there are an awful lot of ifs there.

Lets put this into perspective. This is just a transfer and transfers fall through all the time. Barry is/was Liverpool's top target and we might look a bit silly if we fail to secure his signature but how that related to our perceived status within the top 4 is beyond me, as is why you consider it to be of any real significance. In six months time, it'll all be a distant memory, whatever the outcome.

We should also remember that the only thing preventing this transfer from happening is Liverpool's unwillingness to meet the asking price - there is no desperation, despite what Gerrard said. If Liverpool want him badly enough, they can have him. But apparently, there are other priorites.

As for any breach of regulations, if they are as clear as you believe, Villa will be able to provide evidence to prove them. I'd be surprised if there were any clandestine meetings between Benitez and Alex Black or any recorded telephone conversations.

Can somebody give me a clue which profanity is replaced by "clearing in the woods"?

A four letter word beginning with 'C' and rhyming with hunt.

Oh - I thought that was replaced by "word removed".

Can somebody give me a clue which profanity is replaced by "clearing in the woods"?

What you have to realise is that for Liverpool, this has always been a win-win situation which is why Benitez allowed himself to become embroiled in it in the first place.

I know this is difficult to swallow but you have to be objective to understand that the worst that can happen for Liverpool is that they lose out on signing Barry and carry on as before, whereas one of the clubs aspiring to challenge Liverpool are left with a disillusioned captain.

You can talk about class and dignity and respect if you like and you'd have a point but recent history shows that these qualities don't win football matches and silverware.

Finally the truth will out!

This is the reason we've all got the hump.

You've acted like a bunch of words removed, everyone can see this - the press, the fans, TV.... everyone.

I hope you go **** bust, and disappear up your own deluded Kop End arsehole, you classless bunch of ****. Years of pride, tradition and respect gone. No doubt somebody else will be to blame and their affront will be celebrated by another **** minutes silence before kick off.

You now openly employ destabilising tactics and are quite clearly comfortable doing so..........

All part of Benny Tez's 5 year plan I suppose.

words removed!

I won't deny we've acted like a bunch of words removed but 6 months down the road, we'll be acting like a bunch of words removed to another club just like Real Madrid, Man U, Chelsea etc... will be and Barrygate will be a distant memory to everybody but those associated with Aston Villa.

I used to take the moral highground too when the Mancs went corporate, when Manchester United PLC went public and when Peter Kenyon removed the words "football club" from the crest. Since then, they've gone from strength to strength while Liverpool have pretty much stood still.

I don't like it but I'm getting used to the idea that if you want to make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs.