Philosopher

I think a playmaker is to improve our performances at home as our preferred midfield and forward lacks the bit of creativity, awareness and guile to unlock a stubborn defence.  Plus we need to keep possession better to build pressure our opponents, so a playmaker will help in this regard. I reckon away from home and against the top 6 Sylla, Westwood and Delph will be the first choice, but at home against similar ability or weaker opponents Kiyotake would come in for one of the three, also would be used away against defensive teams and lower league opposition in the cups. That if we were to sign him.

I wish I'd never heard the term False 9. With four good strikers we're hardly going to be using it. Nothing to see here.

 

(imo)

I think we will use it, Lamberts a tactical manger and likes to change formations and tactics to suit.  I reckon you will see it in the league cup or if Benteke is out for whatever reason.

Can't Benteke be a False 9 then, if you don't need to be a midfielder?

He probably could, as in my view he is well on his way to become the complete striker (and occassionally he would drop deep and do this).  But with his abilities I'd rather have him leading the line.

 

I'm really struggling to see how Kiyotake (or any other 'no.10') would fit into a current team. We ended the system playing 433, with Gabby and Andi either side of Benteke and a midfield 3 of Westwood, Sylla, & Delph. He won't replace Benteke, and I would suspect he's unlike to be pushed into a wider role that either Gabby or Andi were playing.

 

In theory he could play in the middle of midfield at the expense of one of Westwood, Sylla or Delph, in a 4231 formation, but playing that many attacking players would leave the middle of midfield rather exposed.

 

So for those reasons, I'm out - and can't see it happening.

 

It'd have to see Andi and Gabby tracking back regularly (which, to be fair, they do anyway) but possibly sticking to wider positions more often, to open up space in the middle when attacking.  For that reason, maybe we'll see someone like Tonev feature quite frequently out wide.

 

But, for the reasons you've stated, I can't see Lambert busting a gut (or paying over the odds) as we have a decent system already.  Another option in central midfield would be welcome though, and I'd prefer to see an attacking one having brought the much-needed Sylla for the defensive role earlier this year.

 

This is thing though, Kiyotake isn't really a traditional number ten that with float around in the hole.  He will be expected to occupy the central midfield position and rather than look to get beyond the other midfielders and get in the box, look to probe with pentrating through balls and otherwise keep possession and spread the play. Basically the way Bannan should have played (and occassionally for a few minutes here and there did)! One of his midfield partners would be expected to make runs beyond him (rather than this role being assigned to one it will most likely be shared with them taking turns to make the forward runs). Delph, Sylla, Westwood and Bacuna are all capable of this. Kiyotake will also be expected to take the set pieces as we really need a quality set piece taker.

False 9 is just a term for a lone striker that isn't actually a striker, he is a midfielder, hence the word 'false'. For further information, see Cesc Fabregas last season for Barcelona, often played in such a position.

Yes, but the false 9 isn't really normal midfielder as in Helenius' case he will offer a target up top when defending who can hold it up and bring others into play like the outlet Benteke offers us, up until we have the ball he is an orthadox number 9 and expected to close down the CB's.  Only once we get in and around that final third does he become a midfielder and then he operates in the hole rather than central midfield.

Um. While Philosopher's formations above do set out a proper "False Nine" formation as I understand it, has anyone spotted that...er...there is no place for...er...Benteke?

 

:o

Thats correct, you  aren't playing a false 9 if you play with two centre forwards! This is the alternative if Benteke is injured or having a stinker, we can change our approach and surprise the opposition with a tactical threat instead of relying on the unplayable beast! If you play benteke then as well then Helenuis occupies the traditional number ten role, the link striker aka trequartista and you go taditional 4-4-2 / 4-2-4. Either way with helenius in the squad it give us options galore! Something Bent can't do.  When you see what our 4 strikers (not including Bent) its obvious that Bent offers very little in comparison. As we know already that Benteke is every bit as prolific as Bent.

Starting formation:

------------------------------Helenius-----------------------------

Gabby------------------------------------------------Weimann

----------Delph---------------------------Sylla------------------

-------------------------Westwood------------------------------

Luna----------Okore------------------Vlaar----------Lowton

-----------------------------Guzan-------------------------------

Attacking Formation:

----------Gabby------------------------------Weimann---------

----------------------------Helenius------------------------------

--------------Delph-----------------------Sylla-------------------

---------------------------Westwood-----------------------------

Luna----------Okore------------------Vlaar----------Lowton

-----------------------------Guzan--------------------------------

So Helenius drops into the hole between defense and attack, Gabby move inside to the inside left channel and Weimann inside to the inside right channel, and depend on which Centre back (if any) follows Helenius one of Gabby or Weimann gets clean run in on goal.

Also with our attacking fullbacks they will be the ones expected to provide the width and crosses into the box.  This formation plays nicely into the strenghts of all our attackers as Weimann is adept at ghosting inside from the right flank, Gabby loves to cut inside and run in behind and Helenius offers awarness, touch and good shot so if the CB's decide not to follow Helenius he has plenty of room to get a shot off or space to run at the defense. The only weakness is that it will leave the flanks vulnerable to attack if we get disposessed.  However that is easily overcome by getting one of the two centre mids to cover the overlap of the fullback, and only allow one fullback to get forward at a time.

 

For Gardner, swap for Kiyotake, if we get him, or Tonev if he plays that position.

 

Helenius playing as a false 9 -

 

Weimann

Helenius

Gardner

Agbonlahor

Westwood

Delph

Luna

Vlaar

Okore

Lowton

Guzan

 

Or...

 

 

Tonev

Helenius

Gardner

Albrighton

Westwood

Delph

Luna

Vlaar

Okore

Lowton

Guzan

 

Con where do you keep getting 12 players from! Also a false 9 plays up front ON HIS OWN and false 9 only works with 1 CF and that CF drops deep to make room for one or both of the attackers on the flanks!

This false 9 seems to be part of lamberts plan.  With Gabby and Weimann wide cutting inside we would effectively be switching from 4-3-3/4-5-1 to 4-4-2 diamond  with Gabby and and Weimann being the front two when attacking, its actually the formation and approach I have been hoping to see from england, with Rooney and Theo Walcott being our best attackers and would help Gabby get back in the england squad.

He gave us a good couple of seasons and probably kept us from dropping into the Championship, but he's no longer of any real use to us so £5m from Fulham sounds great. I wish him the best.

I don't know how you work that one out! Have gave us a good half season then a decent half season (I only say decent because he had to find a way to score in an Alex Mcleish team) then got injured for the rest of that season, then had his place taken by a younger, BETTER, hungrier player.   The fact is he has not given us value for money. He lost his place to a better player and if he couldn't or wouldn't adapt his role to play in a wide position then he can only blame himself. We all saw how frail the team looked with both Bent and Benteke, we simply didn't have the quality in midfield to accommdate that partnership.

Lambert made the right call on Bent, FOR FOOTBALLING REASONS, a falling out didn't happen until Bent found himself on the bench and kicked up a stink!

I think we need a playmaker for sure.  Not for when we play the man u's and chelsea's, but the teams likely to defend in numbers, if we found a quality playmaker I honestly believe we could do something similar to what Newcastle did the season before last.

In regards to Vlaar my only worries are in regard to his aerial ability.  He doesn't have a good leap on him and isn't the tallest CB.  I think we will still struggle on corners, but otherwise I think our defense will be OK (for an attack minded team I mean).

To me Clark just seems to be trying too hard! Like he thinks he should be cruyff turning out of danger all the time and flying in winning the ball like a man possessed.  He just needs to get back to what he does best, positioning himself well, being disciplined in his marking and staying calm and play the percentages. He has always looked best when he just keeps it simple and focuses on the basics.

Bolts and man u fan so its hardly surprising he'd say that! Sorry guy but I think the prime minister supporting our club is the only reason that makes me not want to support Villa! That slithering douche can go F**K himself!

Regarding the defense Lambert made the point from the very start that pre-season is about fitness. The amount of late goals we conceeded last season indicates fitness my be an issue so he is focusing on addressing that.  But as tends to happen when players are being worked hard to improve stamina and endurance injuries are bound to occur.  So I am not surprised we have been conceeding goals and making mistakes defensively as thats what happens when players and heavily fatigued.  You also have to consider the fact that defensively we rely on high intensity pressing style.  If the players are reacting slower and have tired legs this is obviously going to have a negative efect on our pressing.  I honestly believe that we won't know where we are at until the first few games of the season.  Top clubs generally have average results in pre-season because their focus is on fitness rather than results.

On topic, the lack of transfer speculation clearly indicates that outgoings are our focus now. We are finally opperating like a proper club! Get the baulk of the transfer in done early, then focus on shifting deadwood as when clubs know a player is available and ready to be moved on they take their time in order to negotiate the best deal possible.  Pre-season is about getting fitness levels as high as possible. Man U and all their incredible comeback over the year would have happenned without superior fitness levels. Keeping our best players and not taking any shit, standing our ground!

Now is definitely the time for us blast our slogan from the rooftops.

Proud History, Bright Future!

 

"Paul and Randy have been great - they really have," added Lambert. "With the Christian thing and the lads we've brought in.

"They've backed it all the way. It's a matter of us trying to get the right personnel and once it starts for real that's the time to start to judge us.

"The new lads that have come in still need a bit of time to settle. But that's why we've done it as early as we did to give them that feeling of what the British game's like. These lads are going to give it a right go.

"We've got everybody in which is good. It's just a matter of getting them altogether and getting them playing the way you want."

 

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11677/8838041/aston-villa-boss-paul-lambert-challenges-christian-benteke-to-repeat-feats

 

looks like we might be done for the summer

He probably just getting the word out that we are done bringing players in so teams dont think we are desperate to offload the bomb squad in order to fund our own transfers. Thats what I would like to believe anyway but wont be at all surprised if we are actually done for the summer.

 

I reckon the ACM is the icing on the cake and so we aren't going to sign a player we aren't extremely confident of being a success. Its a case of if the right player is available and affordable a deal will be done but otherwise there will be no business. At least thats how I read the situation as its no secret that we have made enquires regarding ACM's.

Morpheus its simple the game has moved on. I am not saying he can't do a job for us, but Benteke, Gabby, and Weimann are ahead of him and rightly so IMO.  Bent doesn't want to sit on the bench and we can't afford him to either. So his time up here and he needs to move for himself and the club. You compare him to Shearer, yet shearer could crack them in from 25 yards, was a fantastic penalty taker, was strong with good hold up play, and a good workrate. Shearer has more to his game, as well as being a better finisher than Bent.  Bent's a good finisher, but not the most clinical, his real talent is being in the right place at the right time to finish things off.

I don't think we should have signed him in the first place! For 4 transfer windows before we actually signed him people were banging on about DB being the missing link how we needed a finisher and so on.  So when we finally got him there was delerium on here. Personally I was like wow we just spent 24m on a player let the good times roll! I wasn't really that impressed with us signing DB, rather it was the fact we had just spent so much money on one player, it felt like we were ready to compete with the big boys! In reality we all knew it was too much money to spend for DB!

My argument against signing him was always he is limited (I always thought he wasn't the right kind of player for us)! People are saying he saved us, I don't buy that for one minute! Our results in the second half of the season coincided with all our first choice players returning to fitness. We would have stayed up period! We struggled in the first half of the season due to a terrible injury crisis plus Houillier changing too much too soon, as our playing style reverted a little back to the counter attacking style of MON only with more possession and a patience when our opponents had plenty of players behind the ball.

Bent was / is terrible business for Villa. So was Mcleish. I don't like to attack Randy or the board (they definitely want whats best for Villa), but they have made 3 massive errors in judgement.  One hiring McLeish, two spending 18-24m on DB, and three swapping Milner with Ireland. We should have made sure we kept Milner and if nothing could be done to keep him then never should have compromised ourselve by including Ireland in the transfer.  I said at the time, Ireland was never the right man to replace Milner and that we would miss his drive and energy. But Ireland was the fans choice, I am sure Randy knew exactly how much most fans wanted him here, I wanted him too, just not as a replacement for Jimmy.  I think MON was probably undermined here on two counts (not wanting Ireland as Jimmy's replacement and then not getting the proceeds from the sale to spend), not surprised they did this to MON when you consider how he blew so much money on average players, but here in lies the problem, a problem we still have! We done have anyone in Randy's ear at boardroom level with a proper understanding of actual football.  Lots of good business men but not so much football knowledge (this is why I am surprised we never got a director of football, but then this may have been a blessing as we have a fantastic manager with lots of freedom to do his thing).  

Bent is a good player but not suited to Villa, in fact he just isn't a modern footballer, and in the premier league this is an issue.  Its no good nowadays to have a player in the middle to just be the terrier, and work hard closing down, putting themself about, they need technique and passing abilty too. Defenders that can only defend don't play for top teams, Even John Terry has a good long range pass and composure in possession, not to mention the fact his a great organiser.  Top level football is no longer a place for one trick ponies! The reason Benteke was so great for us is because he has so many qualities.  If team push up Benteke's pace will see him in behind, if team drop deep Benteke will win every header and with his touch normally find a teammate, if they get tight he will out muscle defenders if they give him space he will be the platform for every attack, you cannot win.  Only a defender as good in the air and quick on the deck can hope to contain him. The quicker we sell him the better as our losses will only increase!

Anyhow rant over!

Yeah, I know it's only preseason but I'm pretty dissappointed we are still conceding such cheap goals from corners. Hopefully it gets sorted over the next few weeks[/quote.]

We have conceeded sloppy goals and late goals so far in pre season. We have played really shit teams too, and conceeded in every game.

I think we need a specialist defensive coach

I am not too worried right now.  Lambert has been putting the lads through the wringer this pre-season, they are starting games already fatigued so its obvious their going to have lapses in concentration throw in the fact wycombe started pre-season earlier a draw is not a bad result.  We also have to remember that none of the players want to get injured in a friendly so aren't playing as intensely as possible.  These kind of pre-season results are normal. I think defensively we will never be great anyway, Lambert teams have always had a clear emphasis on attack and as we have Benteke, Weimann, and Gabby up top we are going to score goals! The final point is we played a very intense pressing system when not in possession last season and so our defense in this pre-season was always going to be weaker than what it actually is due to the points I have already mentioned when factored the pressing style means fatigue, not wanting to get injured will affect our pressing to an even greater degree.

Even after the transfer request I still believed he would stay, simply because I thought that there is no way we were going to drop our asking price and and no way tottenham would match it! This is the best thing for both Villa and Benteke, but terrible news for tottenham, oh what a great day. Tottenham trying to treat Villa like some mickey mouse club, got what they deserved and bloody f'ing nose!

 

Doesn't matter if Lambert was interested, I very much doubt we could afford him. I assume the price is high which is why Norwich found better value in Redmond.

I would actually go so far that redmond is much better than ince, but thats just my view. A player that can become special if he gets the right training and playtime imo

 

If you are looking for a winger I would agree but if you are looking for someone to play central attacking midfield and score goals then Ince is by far the better prospect. 18 goals and 14 assists last season is pretty impressive to me.

AVTV is kinda crap, JW is crap (even if his enthusiasm is somewhat endearing), waste of money. 

Thomas ince spent most of last season playing in the hole and occassionally on the wing he is no threat to Delph's position in the squad. Would fit in well here I think, but I haven't seen him play so I can't comment on whether he would be any good for us. He scored a lot of goals from AM last season though.

 

 

 

i have a question: what if benteke change his mind and stays would the fans forgive him?

 

Yeah - it'll never be quite the same though.

 

 

Same as what?

 

I understand why he was idolised by some, goals will do that. I just never really got it myself. There was always something about his demeanour that turned me off him to a degree and the fact that we've known all along that he would walk as soon as the big clubs and the big clubs came knocking. If he stays and continues to score goals that's great, I'm well up for that. I'll sing his name as I always have, nothing will change. 

 

We've a few players more worthy of our idolisation - Gabby, Weimann, Lowton, Guzan... The club will move on. Things will always be "the same".

 

why Lowton? I like the guy as he always puts in a good performance and played nearly every game last season, but who's to say he's more loyal than Benteke? Would he be happy to stay if clubs like chelsea and tottenham were chasing him? It's not the case right now, so we don't know.

 

A guy like gabby probably could have gone a few seasons ago, when he was in his early 20s and scoring more goals than last season, but he really loves this club, as does a guy like albrighton.That's why he deserves every bit of credit from the fans. This club is his life.

 

Yeah and every season when Gabby's form has dipped I end up trawling through endless Gabby is shit posts! His goals and assist over the last few seasons without them we would have been relegated twice! And when you consider the fact he has been carrying back and hamstring problems for most of the last two season is saying something.  The truth is us fans can be real ungrateful bastards! We want loyalty from a player only when it suits us!

Yes ill never forget the way he just brushed smalling off like he were some washed up pissed up pub player

This is why losing him would be a real setback, because not only can he show power and pace like that, but also finesse and awareness like his first touch backheel to set up weimann. His aerial prowess then there was that massive leap to head in where his head rose above the crossbar! The guy has so much talent, people say he is raw, but I don't think he is that raw, yeah his finishing can still improve and he get caught offside a little too often, but the mans touch is very good. So often did we see heakey jump up and win the header only to see the ball balloon off his foot as soon as he tried to control it, but CB more often than not would keep hold of it, thats why he reminds of Drogba, because Drogba wouldn't just win the header and have the strength to shield the ball but the touch to make the ball stick as well as the pace and dribbling to run with the ball and power past defenders. This guy is only 22 and can get better its scary how good he can become, but he needs another season at Villa!

 

Surely one of our worst signings ever, still makes me laugh that he was voted player of the season. What were people thinking...

I think it says more about that season than the people voting as he was probably our best player.

 

He is shocking though. I can't believe he's still on our books, but who would take him and why would he take a pay cut??

 

I would say it says more about football fans! A their lack of knowledge, B their short memories! Ireland scored one goal and made 3 assists, in the second half of a season, he has some nice touches and makes the highlight reel but really does offer much! Plus that season Gabby was on fire in the first 12 matches or so and scored 7 goals and made 6 assists but at the end everyone was talking about his crap he was, but it was the teams resullts in the first half of that season that saved our asses!