LondonLax

Yeah but with all due respect..I could argue the same... I could say Dundee Villa ..YOU haven't studied the Bible enough, therefore YOU don't understand it's not a book of fiction..Works both ways!

I take it you don't want to talk about evolution anymore - you've ignored all the points I've made. The truth of the Bible is a whole other debate surely.

God can and sometimes chooses to intervene on specific occasions. However what I was saying is that God gave mankind a free hand to rule himself in order for the question of whether he had the right to expect them to live by his guidelines. If you just track back a couple of pages I did answer this I think as I don't want to re-quote myself again.

But does God know everything, is he omnisicient in your opinion?

IF there is a God, then its not a matter if he is omnisicient or not. He would not be God if he wasnt.

He does know everything, but that does not mean that he made any decisions for us. Just because he knows our future does not mean he made it that way.

So you admit God knows our future - which means 'free will' does not exist. Thank you.

Your particular religion's version of god is logically impossible.

PS: If "he did not make it that way" then who did??? Is this your way of admitting your god is not omnipotent after all?? Blimey, he looks more and more unlikely by the minute.

He KNOWS our future. He did not MAKE our future. He made free will and then we used that free will and made our own future. He sees the future we made.

If you think this debate is such a joke, why spend so much of your time in it?

But he knows our future from before we are born. Our fates are decided before we are even concieved. Some of us will be "damned" and some of us will be "saved".

God knew which ones thousands of years ago before humans were created, why bother with this puppet show universe then if he already knows the script that would play out thousands of years in advance?

Why not just put some souls in heaven and some in hell from the beginning and be done with it?

Yeah but with all due respect..I could argue the same... I could say Dundee Villa ..YOU haven't studied the Bible enough, therefore YOU don't understand it's not a book of fiction..Works both ways!

I take it you don't want to talk about evolution anymore - you've ignored all the points I've made. The truth of the Bible is a whole other debate surely.

God can and sometimes chooses to intervene on specific occasions. However what I was saying is that God gave mankind a free hand to rule himself in order for the question of whether he had the right to expect them to live by his guidelines. If you just track back a couple of pages I did answer this I think as I don't want to re-quote myself again.

But does God know everything, is he omnisicient in your opinion?

IF there is a God, then its not a matter if he is omnisicient or not. He would not be God if he wasnt.

He does know everything, but that does not mean that he made any decisions for us. Just because he knows our future does not mean he made it that way.

You must see the problem with that though?

He knows our future from before we are born.

What chance did we have do decide it?

And I guess I've mixed it up with something else that is more of the culture in the middle east than a law in the choran. The thing about women to wear those things to hide their faces, might that be the one I'm thinking about?

That is my understanding also, although I am no expert on the quran. I understood that it instructed women to dress in a respectful way and different cultures have interprited it in different ways from just a scalf to a full body covering.

That's a strange question. Who decides which slot the roulette ball ends up in? No-one, it's random.

There is no such thing as "random" in terms of the universe. There is always a reason something happens. The roulette bell ends up in the slot it did because of the gravety on it, the spin on the wheel, the wind resistance etc. Nothing is "random", there are explinations for everything.

Are we all just successful mutations?

Thats pretty much it as all the unsuccessful mutations are less likely to live long enough to breed and make more unsuccessful mutations.

The dog breeding example is valid, we make new breeds of dog this way (plants and other animals too). With an overseer (i.e. us) it is a much faster more accurate process than in nature, we pick the right dogs for the qualities we want and breed them together getting a new stronger, faster (or whatever we want) type of dog.

If there is no one to control the process as in nature it is a far slower more inprecise process taking millions of years.

Evolution. According to people that don't believe in a God, our body's think for themselves in how they want to change.

You have made a mistake in your understanding of evolution with that bit.

If you want to get better eye's how do you go about doing that? That is to say, human eyes could be better, there are animals around today that have better eyesight than us. So if you want that, can you tell you're body to do it? Can you say, Hey, when I have a baby, hes going to have slightly better eyes than me.

Or, do you have no control over wither your eye decides its good enough or not? Is it the eye itself that decided it wants to change next time around, without you're consent? Now surely that eye cannot think for itself? Or the cells in the eye, they don't even know that they are part of an eye do they?

Anyone see what I'm getting at?

??

Sounds like more support for evolution. If God had designed our eyes why give us a blind spot in them? Why not give us hawk like vision if we were his supposed favourite? Why give us an appendix etc?

Perhaps because our bodies were not created by a perfect being but by an imperfect process of evolution?

Too many shit things happen in life for there to be a god

Too many shit things happen in life for there not to be a Devil.

But surely god is more powerful than the devil? He could stop these things if he wanted to? The buck stops with god right?

Also, I would ask Jondaken this -

What religion are you, and why are you right but all the other religions, that essentially amount to similar things when you get down to it (incomprehensible being(s) making the world and so on), are wrong? Is it because you just so happened to be brought up in a '________' household? Married into it? etc etc.

Yea I was brought up a born again Christian. Got it mainly from my Dad who wasn't brought up a christian and got saved in his mid 20's.

But no, I dont believe I followed like a sheep if that's what your getting at. I stopped going to church at 12, started going back at 18 when it kinda turned out to be the only thing that made sense to me, was that there must be a God.

And yea, I do believe all other religions are wrong, else I'd be a pretty bad christian if I though otherwise. It's hard to explain this sort of stuff, not least over forum boards!

Do you not also agree that if you had happened to be born in Saudi Arabia to devout Muslim parents you would most likely be a Muslim now instead?

That must mean your god allows some souls enough exposure to Christianity to chose for themselves the 'right' religion but denies that of others born in the wrong place (or the wrong time).

I do not know, because it never happened. There are lots of if's, but's and maybe's and im in no position to answer any of them in regard to my parallel life's.

1st of all, I'd be surprised if 90% of the world population had not head of the gospel at some point in their life. They have all had their chance to get to know more. Secondly, being brought up in a christian home does not mean you are going to be one. Not a single one of my school pals, who's parents are Christians, are Christians themselves now.

As for those born in the "wrong place" or "wrong time", who do not know about the gospel, well, I assume God will deal with them on how they lived their lives.

I think that is a bit of wishful thinking on your part there at the end. It is not what the Christain bible says god does to them. Hence the reason for Christian missions to spread the message that you can only be saved through christ. If people could be saved just by being good there would be no need for missionarys.

It does seem quite cruel to the aborignal people who lived between 33AD and 1788AD though doen't it. This is one of the main reasons Cristianity is not a religion I would want to be a part of.

Another point, on free will. If you believe that God is all-knowing and knows everything that will happen in our lives, then free will is a nonsense. If he knows every single decision we will take and what will happen as result, then our lives are mapped out for us and free will is an illusion.

If you say he doesn't know what we're going to do, then he's not an all-knowing god.

Yes it is quite a paradox. If this God is all knowing then it knows what we will do and the choices we make. Hence our lives are known to it and mapped out before we are born. If this God does not know all than it is no longer an all powerful being.

What or Who makes people do the right thing ?

Social conditioning.

The idea that it is better for everyone and therefore better for yourself if you do the "right thing".

It was learnt by many species (not just humans) over their different evolution paths that cooperation improves your chances of survival and now it is so ingrained it is instinctual.

Also, I would ask Jondaken this -

What religion are you, and why are you right but all the other religions, that essentially amount to similar things when you get down to it (incomprehensible being(s) making the world and so on), are wrong? Is it because you just so happened to be brought up in a '________' household? Married into it? etc etc.

Yea I was brought up a born again Christian. Got it mainly from my Dad who wasn't brought up a christian and got saved in his mid 20's.

But no, I dont believe I followed like a sheep if that's what your getting at. I stopped going to church at 12, started going back at 18 when it kinda turned out to be the only thing that made sense to me, was that there must be a God.

And yea, I do believe all other religions are wrong, else I'd be a pretty bad christian if I though otherwise. It's hard to explain this sort of stuff, not least over forum boards!

Do you not also agree that if you had happened to be born in Saudi Arabia to devout Muslim parents you would most likely be a Muslim now instead?

That must mean your god allows some souls enough exposure to Christianity to chose for themselves the 'right' religion but denies that of others born in the wrong place (or the wrong time).

God is the man made explanation for everything we can not explain.

Hundreds of years ago God (and Gods) were very important as they explained every thing about life from the sun rising to the reason why people got sick, to why crops failed etc.

As we understand more and more about our universe the role of "God" become less and less. Perhaps one day there will be no more room for a god when we can explain the universe around us. Most likely not however and people will continue to use a Devine intelligence to fill in the gaps for them.

There are so many reasons why I don't believe in a god it is difficult to know where to start. However, I am more open to the possibility of a god (to explain things I don't yet understand) than to this idea that one book or script has the explanation for him. The notion that people born in Europe in the last 2000 years are the only ones that their god will allow a happy afterlife is so offensive to me I refuse to even entertain the idea.

I am from Australia and there were people living on that land for 40,000 years. None of those people had ever heard of Jesus or God or anything of the sort. They are all in hell apparently. The same a the Inca tribes of south America, the Mayans, the ancient Egyptians, Chinese American Indians etc etc etc. Unless you were given the benefit of being born into a community of Christians who taught you "the word of god" you never stood a chance from the beginning.

There are people still born today who are born into the incorrect religion and brought up into believing it by their parents/peers from birth. They never heard the Christian message and so could not be "saved" and will be cast out from heaven.

What a nasty idea the idea of a one true faith is.

Yea, PC world just popped out of the ground too (after x-million years ofc). No-one built it.

Man evolved, man built PC world. I don't get your point?

Ditto

I think what he is trying to say is that he thinks PCs (and PC world) are very complicated (from a human point of view obviously) and hence there must be a god because complicated things couldn't exist with out a more complicated thing to create it.

I don't really know why that is required because at the end of the day complicated "wonders" are only amazing from human point of view (which goes some way to explaining why humans invented a god to explain them).

The matter in the universe doesn't see a distiction between a computer on earth or a rock on a far away galaxy though. It's all just matter to the universe, a different mix of atoms in different combinations.

yep only 1 win of the top, it may have to be a 15-0'er but still only 1 game in it

Man U still have the game in hand though.

yep greed took over and now tax payers all over the world will have to pay for it

Though, the blame must also be laid at the door of the banks shareholders (all of them) and business and government.

If you were watching the programme on BBC2 the other night where they were talking to the former Finance Director of Northern Rock, his point was that even if Adam Applegarth had decided to steer clear of what turned out to be dodgy investments (as I think the hint was a few in Northern Rock were saying) he would have been out of a job in no time and replaced by someone who could continue the returns that the firm had been getting.

When things are apparently going well, anyone who goes against the grain is seen as a fool, a doommonger, &c.

One only needs to look at the ridicule that was flung at Cable to see that one of the most unpopular things to do is to be cautious when no one else can see the trouble looming.

Yes, I saw that too. Quite insightful.

Even if those incharge wanted to stop making dodgy loans they couldn't because the shareholders would demand their heads due to the missed opportunities that competitors would have picked up.

The fact that the loans were dodgy didn't matter to the bakn and shareholdes because the risk was "securitized" and sold on making it someone elses problem.

The trouble started when banks started buying up each others dodgy securitized loans becasue they had run out of other avenues for revenue.

well the target is the goal, and you've hit part of the goal structure, therefore its kinda on target, but didn't go in.

I'd say the target is getting the ball between the posts, under the crossbar, and over the goal line, as that's what gives a goal.miss.

I'd say that the target is to score a goal, that is to hit the goal without it hitting the keeper so that it won't go in.

In a similar case to it being off target to hit the woodwork, you can argue that it is off target to when the ball hits the keeper. And in the definition it clearly isn't. Therefore you could argue that hitting the post also is hitting the target, as its actually closer to hitting the target than when hitting the keeper.

You could try but you would still be wrong.

Your target is the area inside the posts. There might be a keeper blocking the target but it doesnt change what the target is.

The idea that you get a free flat for having a baby is so bizarre IMO. The english welfare system is very unique.

The Batman remakes were good.

I think it was this thread where someone (Paddy?) mentiopned about the petrol pump sign on a dashbaord having the handle on the same side as the filler cap on the actual car...

Hate to prove you wrong...

Not guilty.

I remember someone posting it though.

Hands up, that was me!

Why if it wasn't for you pesky kids.... :oops:

Perhaps it is ment to be that the picture of the pump shows which side of it you are supposed to pull up to?

No someone go find a picture to prove that wrong!

General,

In regards to buying tickets online, why can you not choose the seats like you can on the phone or in person? I never buy online because it doesn't give me the option of choosing where I want to sit in cases of sitting next to friends (I have a season ticket so that isn't very often but more often is this...) when a friend wants a ticket but I cannot get him a seat next to mine. Will this be eradicated so you are able to choose a seat when buying online?

regards

I would like to second this.

Fulham FC have a great system for buying online. You select the bay you want to sit in and it shows up a display with every seat that is sold and each one that is free so you can just click on the seats you would like.

It is good if you are bringing a big group and they cant all sit in a row, you can split your friends between rows or at least be in a similar area.

It's also just good to know where your seat will be when you buy it.

Have a look on their website. Is there any chance we could upgrade our online sales to something similar?

Ashley Young (My old man’s a dustman)

Ashley Young is magic,

He wears a magic hat,

And when we get a freekick,

He says I'm having that,

He crosses with his left foot,

He crosses with his right,

Will someone tell Capello,

This kid is dynamite

Thats a good song. I was just going to suggest changing it to "he wears a magic boot, and when we have a free kick, he says I'm going to shoot".

A magic boot sounds better than a magic hat for a football song..

Thats still a pretty tricky choice to be fair (though neither option is good obviously)

I think I would take Cole though fortunatly our options are a lot better now.

Modern pentathlon, who the **** came up with that rubbish???

Liverpool have a sign say "This is Anfield" at player tunnel before the entering the pitch how about using Semper Fidelis for Villa version

That is brillient.

At least it would have a bit of meaning attached.