thetrees

so TT do you agree in the principle of a 'people's bank' ?

Cop out.

Neither agree, nor disagree.

I guess we have a people's bank (or two!)

I think that we need to identify what money we have in the country and keep it in the country.

One of the laudable actions of this government was to introduce a national minimum wage, in order to protect the small percentage of the work force that was very poorly paid.

The problem is that the minimum wage has become *the* wage for manual workers and those in the sort of service industries that a consumer led economy relies upon.

In many cases jobs that previously paid ten or twelve pounds an hour are now paying 5 something.

I wouldn't mind betting that the percentage of workers on minimum wage now far outweighs the previous percentage of poorly paid.

That's less money to spend in our consumer economy, or less money to save in a 'people's bank'

TT, it depends how you class it and that i for another debate but look at the constineucies classed as 'swing ones' like Edgbaston for example ....

one thing about the middle class is that they are conservative by nature so we would ever see an extreme left or right party ever get elected to run the country

Just alluding to a previous discussion where we covered this in relation to personal circumstances and you didn't disagree.

As far as a 'class' system goes I agree that there are still the 'upper class', landed gentry etc. Then there are the rest of us. The traditional 'working class' disappeared years ago, with people who may still view themselves as such being amongst the biggest spenders in the consumer boom.

It may well be that we do have a new 'working class' which is made up of white Eastern European, and I think that we could all learn a hell of a lot from them.

the group that always decide elections = the middle class would never allow it

That would be you then Ian?

With the pound jumping a massive 5 cents against the Euro yesterday, an unprecedented rise, it would suggest that there is far more confidence in sterling when the man controlling our economy is out of the country :winkold:

I'm wondering how our societies will react to a bad recession.

I'm sure in the 20s and 30s people were just pleased to put food on their plates and a roof over their heads.

Will modern society react more brattishly at having to forgo Sky subscriptions, 2 holidays a year and a nice car?

Reasonable thinking.

Are you the Archbishop of Canterbury?

Would you be free for employment around May 2010?

There's a bloke called Gordon whose job is going and I reckon that your common sense thinking makes you far more qualified than him.

Married 50 years.

My children's parents have also been married for 18 years

is this not an economic debate ?

if you don;t like it either reply and we debate or to put it simply get out of the thread

But it's boring Ian.

I blame your socialist government of the last 11 years, and you just claim it as a global problem caused by right wing, free market thinking.

You don't seem to think that the socialist government are in any way to blame, although you no doubt thought they were wonderful during the 'no more boom and bust years'

Sure, my input to such debates and stance on this government can be seen as boring, just as your input and desire to blame anybody but the socialist government can be seen as just as boring.

I guess you just outbore me by about 20 to 1

The recession is a necessary correction. It is forcing ill-conceived and poorly run companies to collapse or restructure, and it is compelling consumers to save again. Protecting those overgrown institutions and encouraging more unsustainable consumption will only delay doomsday and make it worse. It's better to endure some pain now than to endure even more pain tomorrow.

this guy would not be a right winger would he

typical right wing response in a recession

do **** all

never mind it is right wing free market deregulated markets that caused this

'price worth paying' © Norman Lamont

what they never say is the impact of BofA, Citibank, RBS, HBOS, and many others failing would have had, Lehman alone caused massive provblems, multiply that 10 fold and we are looking at omething that would destroy all soceities

this situation has never been seen before i all our lifetimes and times have changed since 1929, this is a new situation and laissez faire or intervention will have it's negatives and positives but to seriously suggest governements do either nothing or relatively little is madness

what we see now is small beer to the recessions in our lifetimes

I thought it was getting boring :?

OT, because it is generally more interesting.

agriculture being the only industry that is still growing which is strange I guess

An industry that is growing on the back of cheap imported labour who receive minimum wage at best.

The future is bright....... :bonk:

The amount is immaterial.

It wouldn't be mine, so I would give it back.

time for a no confidence vote on this government me thinks , sure labour will send the whips out and win it with their majority but it will provoke a leadership challenge and let sbe honest , we do need a new leader

The situation is so grave that we need coalition government, gathering up experience and intelligence from the entire political spectrum, with a PM who is neither Tory nor Labour.

The further damage that Brown is inflicting on our country just to save his reputation is criminal.

I have no attachment to Woolies, for I rarely shopped there, but what has happened since their troubles have escalated epitomises the 'must have' greed that has enveloped the population of this country over the last 20 years.

I would say Woolies actually were hit very hard by the cheapo stores like Primark, Pundstrecther, Wilkinsons which all offered the same but cheaper

Perhaps the pain that is yet to be truly felt will make people think a bit harder in the future and realise that there is more to life than material things, flash cars, and just getting one over on your neighbour.

totally agree and at the end of very recession the same hopes were laid

but never happens because people always want the best they can get and inherent jealously gets in the way

this can not be easily changed as it is human nature

otherwise why would people want continual promotions at work ?

Of course it can be changed if credit and irresponsible lending were less freely available, which can be achieved by government intervention.

But as I have stated before it didn't suit this government, which is why we are the deepest in the crap.

And, so not to be political, my feeling is that regulation wouldn't have suited any party of any colour in government, so this would have occurred anyway.

Perhaps we should adopt the Iranian political model and have our country run by clerics. They certainly appear to have a better understanding of the problem and how to fix it than our present government.

I think I would have cared, but I don't any more. I would always hope for a Chelsea win over the evil red 3 anyway.

All I'm really interested in is the Villa finishing as high as possible. As I think 1st or 2nd is unachievable, they are probably off our radar anyway.

I walked through Woolworths Solihull yesterday and I have to say that it was a horrible experience, with scavengers picking their way through near empty shelves and fighting over the last baking tin. I likened it to the wretched starving people who pick their way through rubbish tips on the outskirts of Manila, Djakarta and countless other cities in the so-called third world, the only difference being that they are just trying to survive.

I have no attachment to Woolies, for I rarely shopped there, but what has happened since their troubles have escalated epitomises the 'must have' greed that has enveloped the population of this country over the last 20 years.

Perhaps the pain that is yet to be truly felt will make people think a bit harder in the future and realise that there is more to life than material things, flash cars, and just getting one over on your neighbour.

Some drunks put glasses into people's faces or smash property.

Be happy in the knowledge that a hugely caring and decent person lurks within your soul

I chose Owen as a class above the rest and the only one guaranteed to improve us.

RSC, Crouch and Defoe I wouldn't thank you for.

Heskey might do a job and I like Ashton, but he would be a big risk.

Jovanovic I haven't heard of.

And the credit insurance companies have been happily slashing or completely removing cover on some hitherto sound businesses, thus putting said businesses in jeopardy.

That is why the French government have taken on the burden of credit insurance, and is something that would be a far more effective intervention by UK government than cutting interest rates.

Taking the politics out of it, because I'm not convinced that this situation wouldn't have arisen regardless of who was in power, this government appear to be fumbling around in the dark.

remember the major problem is the lack of loans to business's not so much the consumer

That's my point Ian.

The banks are not supporting business anyway, so it really doesn't matter where the interest rate is.

problem is TT there are few options, monetary ad fiscal measures being used or do you suggest nothing as this is a 'price worth paying' ?

As far as I see it low interest rates got us in this position in the first place.

Low rates for the consumer are a bad thing, as they could encourage further recklessness.

Low rates for business are a good thing but unfortunately the banks and credit insurance companies, having had their own incompetence rumbled, are now running for cover and refusing to support business anyway.

So the net positive result of lowering interest rates is nothing.

Unfortunately the misguided policy of lowering interest rates is shattering confidence in the pound. I know some have suggested that this doesn't matter but as a consumer led economy that relies on imported goods (and food!) we are facing major problems over the falling pound.

Sure, Jaguars are now cheaper in the USA, but car buying isn't uppermost in the thoughts of the average US citizen.

I went to a grammar school and there was no football played.

Rugby, cricket, hockey, tennis and athletics, and that was it!

Peer group pressure is very strong thing at that age; it's a survival tactic. And getting on with your education is a lot easier when you "fit in". At the school they went to there was a very wide range of social backgrounds, which can only be a good thing, IMO.

I was gobsmacked when my daughter came home and asked if she could go on a school skiing trip. I said yes, expecting it to be one of those crammed in a minibus to the French Alps jobs, only to then realise it was to California!

They had no trouble filling that trip, nor the summer one to South Africa.

My kids both went to a Comprehensive with an excellent reputation (still). Unfortunately good comps are a bit arty, farty and the familiarity between the pupils and teachers (first name terms!) is a bit much for me. They both did okay, but exam passes nowadays are a bit questionable. Better for me had they had a well rounded education, and you don't get that from a state Comprehensive.

When my kids were starting out at school we had very little money. If they were starting now we would dip a holiday a year, make a few economies elsewhere and definitely send them private.

General,

I am home having 'attended' the Zilina game.

Unfortunately I had to street park my car as the (pay)car park that I normally use was closed. My teenage son managed to leave his mobile in the car, on display, and realised 10 minutes or so into the game. I sent him to retrieve it and he came back to tell me that there was no facility to re-admit paying spectators to the North Stand, despite the fact that there were several staff around the entrance/exits.

So we left, my son no doubt until the next time, and me for the last time. My season ticket will be used by relatives or friends for the remainder of this season and will not be renewed.

I am typing this message not to seek refunds, freebies or apologies, for the former two would certainly be turned down and the latter accepted, but merely to suggest that the club has some kind of future re-admission process for supporters in extremely rare moments of difficulty.