TRO

....was it gregory who said about yorke " if i had a gun i would shoot him"

I would suspect that is currently going through Martins head regarding Milner.

I suspect we will be better without Milner...don't rate him a highly as you lot...decent ,but thats all for me.

I happen to remember Gray, Deehan & Gidman going in the same season.

we signed withe, swain and a few others and went on to make history.

Ps its not about who you lose.....more importantly its who you have your eye on to bring in.

..The talks with Milner were NOT amicable.

I would like to see us improve the overall ability of our football and win matches more convincingly.

I'm looking for a more cohesive unit in defence and attack.I want to see good positional sense in defence and cut out the school boy errors, by synchronised movement.

I want to see more goals from open play and dispense with the reliance so heavily on set pieces.I want to see intelligence employed in offensive movement.

then and only then will i be looking for trophies.

lads, everyones focussing on the wage bill in the wrong way

yes, cutting it is imperitive... but i dont think its cutting it for first teamers that's the issue. its getting the players mon has signed and doesnt use off the wage bill, with a warning never to **** things up so badly again on the wage front. i cant see randy having issues paying guys who are ACTUALLY playing football

so far as i can see it hes just sick of paying for mons mistakes to sit on their arses

I don't think the issues at B6 ..are too much more than that.

Please stop the giant quotes.

I've said it on another page, there is just no common sense behind thinking MON is trying to force milner out.

1) It would piss off most of the fans to know that such a good player was being forced out

2) It would piss off other players at the club to know that the manager and owner are happy to push out one of the best players, why would any ambitious players want to play for a club like this?

3) Why would randy allow this to happen and threaten the success of his investment?

What good can come out of MON forcing a player who doesn't want to leave out of the club?

but he does want to leave and in my humble opinion has always had one eye on doing so.....despite the villa park adulation.

I'm refering to Martin wanting to force it through, after he is certain Milner wants to go.

you know a little bit like on here where folk get positive with the inevitable.

you wait and see how many milner fans now turn and declare hime the biggest shit under the sun after a few weeks ago wanting his babies.

People are forgetting that since the meeting Milner's agent has told the club that he will not be signing a new contract, that's what kicked the whole thing off and why MON threw the player rightfully under the bus.

Trouble is the bus can't move.....there is too many players under it.

coz last time barry ran to the media and we crucified him for it, this time it was o'neill

Barry spoke out to try and force villa to sell him to liverpool for a lower fee. You think thats the same as what MON is doing?

You think Barry had villa's best interests in mind when he gave his interview?

Pretty pointless discussion if you think those two things are the same.

So how can you be so sure Mon isn't trying to force the sale through himself....jockeying for the best price.

If I had of bought some of the dross he has, I would be pretty interested in raising some doe to get me out of the mess....because RL has made it clear- sort it out yourself.

In my view.... James Milner is Mons get out of jail card.

fil the ground with them, i won't be there this season.

Any deal for Ireland would have to be seperate to Milner's transfer that will be a straight cash deal.

No part exchanges will be part of the deal.

Agree though, go & sign Ireland Martin.

He should'nt have to be told, it should be obvious.

love football...hate footballers

Look seriously, they all want to go where the good ones are.

you have to convince them that thats what your all about.

if not.........MEDIOCRE HERE WE COME.

I have never had any doubt about Milner or his intentions...and if you have any doubts about my stance check my previous posts.

...A steve Hodge for me used Villa a stepping stone and thats all he seen us as.

fair play to him, but i simply don't rate him as some of you do on here

now if it was David Platt, Dwight yorke or Brian Little leaving I could understand the disappointment.

If the money is spent wisely.....(fur rabbits foot tightly in hand) we will be better off.

probably 10mill for Keane and 10 mill for Parker....that just about spunks it away nicely.

We will finish......

6th.

Same brilliant start, same hopeless finish.

We will get dumped out of Europe early but will have a cup run in at least one of the others.

Gabby to get 15 goals before the New Year and then fail to score another. Heskey to run around, fall flat on his arse and then spend the next 10 minutes trying to stand up.

Ashley will run around, fall over a lot and then spend the rest of the games hobbling and holding his shin.

John Carew to play one blinding game and then go missing for the next 10.

Carlos to stay at right-back and continue his "Delap" style throws, which end up going straight to the 'keeper.

Captain Fantastic to jog around, pass sideways, point a lot and then vanish after the hour.

MON to use the "small squad", "he hasnt had a proper preseason" line ad infinitum.

I don't think we will improve to that extent.

well as NRC is absolutley Dogshit, id say petrov

stop dithering, make your mind up.

...on our arses.

Thought i would just say that to balance out any high expectation.

The problem is and I think this is the heart of the matter with all NRC's issues at Villa what he see's himself as and what the manager see's him as are two very very different things. That has been the heart of the problems since we signed him and will never be resolved.

O'Neill saw NRC as a potentially brilliant holding midfielder talked him up in the role, played him in the role and talked about his potential to play for England in that position. When he first arrived there were loads of articles from O'Neill talking about him in this role and about how it was best matched to his capabilities to his strengths and he tried to convert him, it failed.

NRC see's and has always seen himself as a box to box midfielder able to join in the play up front as much as he stops it at the other end. This is the role he played for Wimbledon for West Ham and for England Under 21's and I think he expected to play that role here its not happened.

We've all seen his limitations with the ball at his feet and seen his strengths in other aspects of his game, no need for me to repeat them.

At Villa we simply have players more capable than NRC in the opposition half of the pitch but he hasn't accepted that and hasn't seen the role in the team the manager wanted him to take or more to the point wasn't willing to play it. Had he done so I think he would have been Villa skipper by now, an outstanding holding midfielder and would have been in South Africa.

The blame lies with NRC for being unwilling to change his game for his own good and that of the team and with the manager for perhaps not being clear with the player what he wanted from him prior to signing him. Had he been I think its unlikely NRC would have signed for us such is the strength of his character and seemingly self belief.

Its a crying shame he could and should have been brilliant for us and a Holte hero instead he will probably go down as O'Neill's worst signing for the club.

That is a very feasible theory.....I don't know if you are right or wrong, but it is a buyable thought.

If it is true maybe somewhere along the line Martin O'Neill could come clean on it after all isn't it a bit of truth we are all a bit suseptible and warm to.

I don't doubt some of the adverse comments about Nigels individual skill have merit....its his effect on all the other performances in the team that impress me, as Barry says he gives us Balance....and allows the more gifted performers like Petrov the freedom to be released from the holding role.

I do agree with what Risso said about NRC replacing Petrov would make things worse, but wouldn't oppose to the idea of them playing together like kkr mentioned. As good as Jimmy was last season, I think he made Stan's job harder, he was forever vacating his position and wondering from wing to wing so Stan was left in the middle on his own, so maybe it'd be ideal to have someone alongside him to give him help and it'd allow Milner and others to run free.

...well spotted that man

spot on.

We won the league in a completely different era of football - the game has changed so much since then that it's not really the best idea to draw comparisons with our title winners back then.

I quite like NRC and can see what he offers the team but he just isn't as good as Petrov. All the good defensive central mids these days at the top level have good technical ability too (Makelele, Essien etc) and NRC's touch and passing ability aren't up to it.

I would go along with most of that except Makelele when he was playing and Essien ain't just good they were/are amongst the worlds best at what they do.

.....its a bit like comparing ashley Young with Ronaldo.

I wouldn't replace Petrov with NRC I would play them together....Petrov does have the more footballing brain and he is a "pick pocket" rather than a ball winner.... but hey midfield is almost always villa fans point of debate.

If saying 'Ron Saunders would have him as the first name on the sheet' is a worthwhile argument to anyone for his use, in 2010, to this side...

...well, I'll be lost for words at the illogical nature of it. It's a complete fallacy. All it means is Saunders would have liked him. So what? Saunders isn't the manager anymore, Saunders isn't in the management lark anymore, he was 30 years ago.

It means nothing at all, it's completely irrelevant.

Right, I'm making a promise to myself, I'm becoming blind to the word NRC, I'm fed up of even having to waste the energy on him debating opinions of him.

so don't respond, no one is standing over you forcing you to type.

i think he's a valuable member of our squad.

Chindie - And your logic of NRC being "shit" is built around what?... Statistics? I find it very rich that you can demolish and degrade TRO's opinion because he uses factual, successful examples to support his argument.

You write some great and informative posts on this forum, I enjoy reading your posts, but on this NRC issue you're completely and utterly wrong about it all.

It's based on stats in part, and watching him in part, and his own beliefs of himself somewhat.

I really cannot be arsed to go over it (again) in any detail, but his passing is pretty naff, his touch awful, can't run on the ball despite regularly trying, his tackling is good but it's no good only having that to your bow, and for all his effort and 'trying hard' he actually does **** all. And this from a bloke who thinks he's a box to box mid.

For all the criticism Petrov's ever got, he does everything NRC does, and can actually play football too.

NRC has served his purpose, I thank him for that, move him on to the likes of Stoke or whoever will buy him.

I'm also frankly fed up that such a mediocre player has such a wealth of time spent mithering over him. Rather like the talk of Gareth Barry once he'd left, I'm hoping we can consign wasting the effort over him to the past, sharpish.

Now lets never speak of him again.

you really do have thing about NRC to the point that i think your appraisal is funadamentally flawed. i could disagree with the degree of your criticism on every score......its downright personal in my view.

that post is sad and your last line supports it.

ps ... but you are funny.

I'm not sure i get what your alluding too....yes you can't take everything that happened years ago as gospel and line by line, but if we didn't learn from history what is the point of anything.....I guess experience itself is what we are talking about.

doesn't Martin himself talk about Brian Clough and what he did morning, noon & night....wish he copied him.

but hey....its good to talk.

I'm alluding to your argument being absolutely without point when referring to 'He'd be the first name on the teamsheet with Ron Saunders'.

It means nothing. You use it to justify your position on NRC's use to the side, but it does nothing of the sort. Just because he'd be the first name on the sheet for Saunders doesn't mean a thing to todays MON, 2010 side. It's utterly irrelevant.

It's no different to the Hitler fallacy, as I alluded to.

Chindie

lighten up, of couse it means something.....This site is all about opinions and some we agree with and some we don't.

it is well documented you don't agree with mine and i don't agree with some of yours/some i do.

Looking at High energy players like Bremner and Carradus who Ron drooled on with his famous 110% effort....Nigel is from a similar stable.

even if I am the only one that believes it it means something to me.

so at least there is one poster on here that it does mean some thing to.

I think what TRO is saying is that you need balance in a team and our team, particularly in a 4-4-2, lacks someone with a bit of aggression and forward drive in the centre of the park. Invariably, the player that does this in a 4-4-2 will not be a "footballer". If you look at NRCs performances last year we looked a much stronger outfit IMO on the limited occasions that he was allowed to play than when he didn't. He was the MOTM in the two Plop games I think, participated in home win against Fulham and away win against Blues, played in the home game against Spurs and the thrashing of Bolton. I thought he played an important part in every one of the games he played??

I like NRC and I would like him to stay with us but I do not buy into him being this incredible 'destroyer'. For 1 I think that speciality position is overhyped and not good for a team like ours who cannot just rely on our attacking players to score goals, we need all 11 players contributing in all areas, obviously some more than others but NRC contribution for us ranges from little to negative and this is counter productive to our side.

So if the first name is a designated 'destroyer' I will always disagree. We need a midfield that can play, perhaps he could work in a 5 man midfield but in a 442 we cannot afford 1 less player when we are in possession.

Just to reiterate he is a good player who can do a job for us but promoting him to a guaranteed starter would be a huge mistake. All imo of course.

well bearing in mind its all opinions and that is the fascination.

but let me remind you " Incredible" was your word and your interpretation.

We all have our opinions on what line ups should be....and in over 70 years we have won the league title once ( not checked the dates so don't be pedantic)...when we did we played with an out and out Ball Winner, who wasn't blessed with the silky skills, so many crave on here.

I'd risk giving that a try again.... even if it was simply to give it a try.

If we can go 15 games winning 2 with a player that was saying he wants out..... surely we can give that a try with a player that wants to stay and fight for his place.

what messages are we sending out?

I am under the impression that you think Bremner was a great player so that is where I got the word incredible from.

Football has changed a lot and I think if you are going to play with 2 in midfield then they have to do more than just tackle. As I said maybe in a central 3 but he leaves too big gaps for my liking in a 2.

I'm all for giving things a go, I think it is in our best interests to be able to use a few different formations and personnel. This is why I would like NRC to stay.

Gabby, honestly i appreciate your comments.

One of the reasons I feel passionately about NRC's game is this and beleive me I do understand about folk's opinions of his shortfall in passing ability ..except a) I think it is overplayed and exagerrated & for the value that the player brings it can be negated.

back to the issue

I used to go in to the Aston Social all them years ago. with a dour view on Des Bremner.... waxing Lyrical about Morley,Shaw Cowans and Bremner....talking in to night about Peter withes goals....Jimmy Rimmer was the best i ever seen and so on.

It took me years, sorry to admit this....to realise the value of Des Bremner, I feel humbled at the fact whan i was in my thirties I thought I knew what I was watching....Des Bremner created the platform for the other to play in.

I don't want to go overboard on NRC'S value, because I simply know it is unlikely it will be recognised.

all I'm saying is that Nigel's value to the team far outweighs his personal skill factor.....Like Des he is far more valuable than his individual performances suggest.

ps ...selling him will be a big mistake.

....what a joke

can't wait for him to go, another steve hodge.

money in the bank.

Why ? What's he said?

He hasn't said anything.....I just don't rate him in the same class as most Villa Fans

Reductio ad Saundersum.

Hi Chindie

yes mate.... because it was somebody I rated very highly and rather than speculation which some on here wallow in....its fact.

I would value Ron Saunders opinion on football over O'Neill any day.

not saying O'Neill has done a bad job, but neither did Gregory or Little and thats the company I would just about put him in..... no disrespect to them of course.

Thought you may have come back with a tangible response rather than a personal sleight.

.....sorry for benchmarking a great Manager.

Ps Oh and bye the way I had the opportunity and good fortune to meet Tony Barton on one occasion .....his thoughts and opinions on football , just blew me away. Highly intelligent man in terms of Football and great talent spotter.

It wasn't a personal slight, it's a criticism of your argument that amounts to something similar to the Hitler fallacy, which dictates because Hitler did it, it's bad. For you, because Saunders would do it (...30 years ago...) it's right.

Logical fallacy.

I'm not sure i get what your alluding too....yes you can't take everything that happened years ago as gospel and line by line, but if we didn't learn from history what is the point of anything.....I guess experience itself is what we are talking about.

doesn't Martin himself talk about Brian Clough and what he did morning, noon & night....wish he copied him.

but hey....its good to talk.

Reductio ad Saundersum.

Hi Chindie

yes mate.... because it was somebody I rated very highly and rather than speculation which some on here wallow in....its fact.

I would value Ron Saunders opinion on football over O'Neill any day.

not saying O'Neill has done a bad job, but neither did Gregory or Little and thats the company I would just about put him in..... no disrespect to them of course.

Thought you may have come back with a tangible response rather than a personal sleight.

.....sorry for benchmarking a great Manager.

Ps Oh and bye the way I had the opportunity and good fortune to meet Tony Barton on one occasion .....his thoughts and opinions on football , just blew me away. Highly intelligent man in terms of Football and great talent spotter.