jackbauer24

We are 19th on the last 6 form guide. (Norwich 20th)
We are 19th on the last 6 home games form guide (Wigan 20th)

We are 12th on the last 6 away games form guide.

We have got 2 points from the last 6 games whilst our nearest rivals have:

Reading 10pts

Southampton 8pts
QPR 4pts
Newcastle 4pts
Wigan 4pts

So some are in good form, others are attempting to strengthen their teams. Norwich are the only team to be doing worse than us in the league on current form, yet they are 6 points and 10 goal difference better than us.

We're down, we might be lucky and not be bottom but that's the only 'if' now. We're definitely down.
 

Just to add to the conspiracy theories... I very much doubt they were 'free' flags at all. The programme was an extra £2 and I doubt it cost much more to produce a 'flappy' cover so I think most people paid for the flag actually!!

I was definitely within throwing distance of Lambert (and I was tempted) but I know who I really want to throw it at is a few thousand miles away. And my god did the email thanking us for our support last night really p*ss me off!

I don't think we will get relegated because

a) Lerner would have no choice but to pump money in at January regardless if we were in with a chance of relegation. He's not stupid, relegation would not be in his plan, whatever it is.

Lamberts too good

c) Wehave Given, Vlaar and Bent, none of the teams in the relegation battle have anywhere near this quality in any of their individuals

I happened to click on the first page of this thread by mistake and thought 'how things change'. A majority of the campaign without Vlaar, Bent or Given, no money pumped in in January and everyone questioning Lambert. I also never understand why people vote 'Unsure' - just make up your mind before voting!!

Nah, this will be on. It's not going to be as bad as it was Friday and matches still went ahead on Saturday. The area will have been cleared and the under soil heating will have done a job. This is on.

As to the match, I have been given no reason whatsoever to think that we will turn this round and get to the final. None. So why the hell am I a little bit excited about this match?! It's going to go one of two extreme ways - we're all going to be incredibly angry and calling for everyone's head or it's going to go down in folklore like Tranmere/ Blackburn.

I wasn't when I bought the tickets, but now I'm beginning to look forward to it.

You got the feeling that WBA almost knew it would be easy to beat us. In fact they were over-confident and that's what let us escape with a draw. We should all be bloody ecstatic!

Once they stepped it up, like we all knew they would in the second half, it was always going to be a case of when, not if, they scored. That took less than five minutes and then it was inevitable it was going to be all WBA in the second half. The possession statistics in the second half would be embarrassing. From the 50th minute we were hanging on for any points and were lucky to leave with one.

As for it's reflection on our league survival battle and any positives; we are bobbing around the trapdoor and will remain there until we add some steel to our midfield. If we don't do that we will spend the remainder of the season between 19th and 17th. Unfortunately I think we're going to come up just short and finally say goodbye to the Premier League. However, positives - Vlaar gives the side more confidence, and the fans, NZogbia looks like he might be up for the fight and Benteke can always score a blinder.

This has kept us in the fight. Newcastle is far more important. Lose and we're down. I would have happily lost this game if we could have drawn with Southampton - it's far more important to be taking points off your rivals.

We'll probably be out of both cups by the time we play our next league match so we'll have no distractions to try and scrape over the line. But I'm not optimistic.

I think it is a fair question. Most people on these boards are not going to remember what happened 25 years ago all that clearly, if at all.

Personally I ask my self a number of questions about MY time supporting Villa (pretty much just Premiership):

Who's the worst manager we've had? Mcleish (Lerner)

Who's the best manager we've had? Little (Ellis)

What's the worst Premier League season we've had? Last year - to be beaten this year (Lerner)

What's the best Premuer League season we've had? 96, top 4, cup and a semi (Ellis)

What's my favourite experiences? 94/96 League Cups, Top of the league til Xmas (unbeaten run) and European nights (Ellis)

What's my worst experiences? Losses to Blues and Bradford!!

On the face of it, it has to be the theoretical idea of Ellis back BUT I wouldn't say I would support that either!! We're all quick to criticise, but the game changes, no-one WANTS to do badly and no one os perfect. Ellis loves Villa, Lerner loves profit (which requires a succesful team) but neither of them are capable of achieving their dream.

We need to be sold to someone who is capable, and capable does not mean just rich - look at the likes of Everton and Arsenal who have never spent huge sums. We don't have, and never have had, the best management and we are ripe for good sensible investment. The midlands is devoid of succesful team, we have a large fan base and a world class stadium - we could be massive. As it is we're probably one of the smallest clubs in the league at the moment in regards current XI household names, salary, ground attendance precentages, etc etc.

We're almost certainly down. But the blame lies at a multitude of people's feet, Ellis and Lerner are just two.

It always amazes me how so many people can look at the same picture and see different things. No-one is 'wrong' and it their right to believe as they do.

Me, I fall on the pessimistic side of the fence. But then I only come on here when I want to vent anyway - if things are going well then I'm as happy and carry on with life. If it's depressing then I spout off on VillaTalk rather than at my girlfriend! Same way as you don't talk about your health or money unless there is a problem that needs addressing.

And Villa, in my eyes, have a big problem at the moment. We have to be considered Relegation candidates. We've been close two years running and haven't added any proven quality - we've removed some waste and taken gambles on young players. But if desire was all you needed then you could pick 11 guys from VillaTalk and we'd be ok.

Our keeper is losing form for whatever reason. Our defence was a shambles but is now unknown. Although I think we're all disappointed Cuellar left and I find it amusing everyone is hoping for a quick return for Dunne when most have been screaming for him to be sold. Our midfield is almost unchanged - Petrov hopefully replaced by El Ahmadi but the rest are very young or injured. The strikeforce is much the same, Bent a hope as long as he gets service and remains fit. Gabby constantly battling injuries and Delf replaced by another untested youngster. Add Benteke and reports range from promising to petulant and clinical to a (rather amusingly read) 'less graceful version of Heskey'!

We have a much better manager but we still need players with quality. And every time people say look what he did at Norwich with lower league players all I actually hear is "we're a small club and just happy to be in the Premiership". We are, as it stands, no different than Reading, Swansea and Southampton - except their on a crest of a wave and we're in a two year downward spiral.

How we have dropped so quickly is amazing and frankly I don't care how it happened - that's the past. No point wasting time trying to attribute blame. But, as for relegation, I think we have to be considered one of the worst 5 teams in the league and, as such, injuries and luck will play a huge part as to whether we survive this season.

Will we be relegated? I don't know. Is it laughable to suggest as much, no way. Relegation is definitely more likely than a top half finish.

I think most would agree that if all these signings turn out to be Premiership standard we'd be shocked - so there is an element of a gamble in there. More so than a Premiership/Top League player to us transfer. I'm very concerned that these aren't players for 'now' anyway and that's what we actually needed.

Not that I agree with it, or even like it, but we have to face up to the fact that football has changed since the days of Saunders! Teams will never ever be successful again until their is major investment. Ok, you will get the occasional plucky team over performing for a year or the occasional diamond in the rough in a lower division being snapped up but even the Manchester United's of this world can no longer wait for youth to gain experience to feature in their team. They buy the best of everyone else's youth (and some of the prices for 17 year olds is ridiculous) and supplement it with massive moves for other players. Their younger players are sent off to lower teams and 'tested' there - see Kyle Walker.

What concerns me is we have now fallen to such a degree, in this finance driven game we all love, that we have to scrape around in League 1 for possible diamonds. Not saying they won't work out but I doubt there is many a fan out there who wouldn't have liked any one of Adam, Benayoun, Carroll, Berbatov, Jarvis or Johnson? All purchased by what used to be smaller teams than ourselves. And all of which would have (more likely) improved a current team immediately.

I know people are looking for the positivity and citing things like team spirit and desire to wear the Claret and Blue shirt, but let's be honest - good players don't give a crap and will play well if surrounded by other good players and earning the money they want. If it was all about team spirit and dying for the cause then we might as well choose 11 mates out the Holte End. I don't agree with it but to survive in this League you need investment in proven quality and that costs money and wages.

We haven't done this, we've taken a gamble that I really hope pays off. I'm not having a go at any of them - but it has to be recognised as a gamble and, as such, a gamble with our Premier League existence. Whether that is Lerner or Lambert's gamble I don't care - it's Aston Villa's future I care about.

Do I agree with money being the be all and end all? No - no-one likes it but it's the way it is until something (and certainly not FFP) changes it. That will just mean the current rich clubs stay rich as they can buy the better players forever.

I have no issues with Lambert, I have few with Lerner but to be 'happy' with the transfers is asking a lot. I'll just say I want to be 'hopeful' for now.

Funnily enough though, our best player was El Ahmadi.

Agree. Don't get me wrong, experience in the Premier League is not ALL important (otherwise I might sound like a Board member looking for a new manager....!) but in a squad I think most would recognise it's important to have a balance.

We could well drop Given after his clanger today, Bent could get an injury; in that case we'd nearly have less than a seasons experience (11x39) between the whole squad!!

It's just shows how weak we are I think. We need some experienced players in. In fact, if I could choose one player to join us at the moment it would be Robbie Keane realistically. Bring him back, even on loan again, and get that missing link and add much needed experience. Whatever we think of Bent, we all know he's not really a 'leader' for what is looking like a long campaign.

I know it's very bad form to effectively bump your own thread but my point on experience is being mentioned by a few. If we take today's opponents, but stick to the same criteria, that stats read as:

Villa (current):

Given 407, Vlaar 1, Clarke 21, Baker 8, Lowton 1, El Ahmadi 1, N'Zogbia 202, Bannan 13, Herd 6, Bent 209, Delfouneso 24

(subs: Weimann 2, Lichaj 5, Holman 1)

Total 893 (901)

Everton (to end of 11/12):

Howard 231, Baines 200, Jagielka 151, Distin 350, Neville 460, Gibson 30, Osman 218, Pienaar 112, Fellaini 73, Jelavic 0, Naismith 0

(subs: Mirallas 0, Heitinga 58, Coleman 37)

Total 1825 (1920)

The gap got bigger... and so did the scoreline. It really is telling how weak we are in terms of experience. Do you ever go with kids when you're in a scrap or do you go with more experience?

Weird to be saying this, but we need Dunne, Warnock and Gabby back quickly. Old heads are better than over-rated kids.

I said before the season, whilst the benefits of getting rid of AMC were obvious they were only part of the problem - the squad has been butchered by cost-cutting and sales. We are now left with kids, most of which would never play at this level if it weren't for desperation.

Lerner has made a huge mistake hiring Lambert - AMC was the only thing keeping the crowd off his back, now we will all be looking at what he has done to our club. He planned to be out of it by now.

He bought Villa cheap (look how much we sold for compared to other teams) and then invested in the business and infrastructure like most new buyers would. He made us look all pretty and sellable frankly - but then the world markets crashed and football becomes a luxury. Suddenly there is no-one he can sell to. So sell all the fancy furniture, cut costs to a minimum, stick tenants in (AMC) and hope they don't wreck it (relegation) until either the market picks up again and he can sell or he cuts his losses after the floor has fallen through.

Unfortunately relegation looks a hell of a lot more likely than finding a new buyer at the moment.

I will enjoy my season ticket in our last year as a Premiership club for the foreseeable future. We will buy a few cheapass players next week to paper over the cracks but the damages to the foundations was done a long time ago and we now don't have the money (or will?) to make the necessary repairs.

I've been thinking about our experience (or lack of it) in terms of players who've played in the Premiership. Not the most important factor in determining success, but an important one nevertheless.

So I've looked at Villa v West Ham (newly promoted of course) and found these statistics using MyFootballFacts.com which covers til the end of last season. Click on link for exact page.

Villa:

Given 406, Vlaar 0, Clarke 20, Baker 7, Lowton 0, Ireland 150, El Ahmadi 0, N'Zogbia 201, Delph 15, Bent 208, Holman 0

(subs: Gardner 0? Bannan 12, Weimann 1)

Total 1004 (1017)

West Ham:

Jaaskelainen 361, Reid 7, McCartney 159, Collins 113, Demel 0, Nolan 302, Taylor 267, Noble 128, Diame 70, Cole 213, Vaz Te 58

(subs: O'Brien 50, Tomkins 60, Maigi 0)

Total 1678 (1788)

That's quite a difference, especially when you consider they are a newly promoted team. However, I'm sure the likes of Reading and Southampton wouldn't have such high figures, but would anyone else be quite as low as ours? Basically we could almost be considered a newly promoted team - there is little indication of how we may perform as few have done so regularly at this level and/or in this country.

People are asking for Given to be dropped for Guzan, Dunne, Ireland and N'Zogbia to be moved on due to high wages and Bent to go because he's 'lazy'. But who exactly takes their place? The names being suggested would reduce our Premier League experience to less than 100!

It's not the be all and end all but it is widely recognised that you need experienced players for this league and we are already lacking and the suggestion is this will be even lower by the time we face Newcastle on September 2nd.

For the last 2 years we've gone into the 37th game of the season not 100% safe.

The three promoted teams have spent some money and QPR the only team we finished above still in the prem have improved their team.

We seem to have improved our defence but without improving our attacking options I don't see how we won't be down there yet again.

Better manager. I know you couldn't rate either Houllier or McLeish any lower and also rate Lambert very highly (as do I).

I agree Lambert is better than those two clowns. I think he'll improve lots of areas of the team, I'm just unsure if he alone is enough to get us scoring the goals we'll need to stay well clear.

Well if McLeish can keep us up with a worse squad, why can't a much much better manager in Lambert keep us easily away from relegation?

Logically he should but since when has football ever been that simple? I'm just thinking of comparisons of this seasons squad and last seasons and the loan signing of Keane sprang to mind. His contribution turned out to be crucial!

The squad has imrpoved since then, albeit not by a great deal.

That's arguable. We've replaced a lot of experience with a lot of untested (Premiership) players. I'd say, as it stands, that we're a little weaker actually.

Lowton, Clark, Baker, Weimann and Gardner look like they'll be playing a bit and have relatively little first team experience - never mind Premiership.

If Dunne, Hutton and Warnock go I strongly believe we need a few Premiership experienced players in to replace them.

I was wondering where we'd rank in the Premiership based on number of Premiership appearances of a starting XI on the first day of this season. I'd wager it'd be amongst lowest in Premiership - maybe beating likes on Southampton and Reading alone? Given, Ireland, N'Zogbia and Bent the only ones with over 20 starts I'm guessing!

I'm not quite panicking yet, but we do need some decent investment before September 1st.

This is my team and this will be my team pretty much all year.

Krul

Vlaar Walker Evra Kompany

Ireland Moses Arteta Bale

Bent Van Persie

Subs - cheapest possible!

Having every summer off (teacher) and missing real football I always make a Fantasy Football team with enthusiasm. Come September I forget about it and discover in May that I'm bottom of the league... So with that in mind I've gone for the strongest starting XI as I know I'll never mess around with subs and transfers.

So we've sold them for £4m but, because we're so nice and offer a full service, we're giving them a bit more game time tonight by naming them as subs and don't care if they get injured or anything so silly as it's a done deal.

Bloomin' hell - it quite clearly is miles of done even if there is any truth in it. Besides, it seems v unlikely that MON would want basically his whole back four again - Cuellar, Warnock and Collins?

If Hutton goes it will be worth my season ticket money alone!!

I only bought when McLeish got sacked, but Hutton going would have been almost reason enough in itself. Both going... and Heskey's gone - Oh my god it's all just a wonderful dream isn't it?!

Hutton is the worst player I have ever SEEN at Villa Park and I've been going in person since about 95/6. More hack than tackle, more hoof than pass and bloomin lucky he didn't see more red cards than he did. Useless.

not sure about the winners of the Europa League - but domestically, to stop the top four domination - Theres a few things i'd do to make the premier league less boring....... Option 1: Top 3 in champions league - then 4th down to 7th enter into a play-off for the fourth champions league place. This way you could go into the last few games of the season with teams as low as 12th with a chance of a lottery for the champions league - that way there will be no boring mid-table nothing games and would have a more even spread of the riches on offer in the champs league. Option 2: Top 3 in Champions League with FA Cup Winners in Champions League or Option 3: Top 2 in Champions League and the winners of the two domestic cups taking Champions League places. The domestic cup will then take on a greater significance !

itll never happen tho

Agree, Champions League should be just that, CHAMPIONS.

Premiership, FA Cup, League Cup - if a British team wins a European trophy they are automatically allowed back in league the following season.

The league then supplies the Europa with the remaining spots.

Further more relegation should be guaranteed for the bottom two, then 18,17,16,15th have to play 3rd, 4th, 5th,6th in the Championship in a winner takes all - higher you are in Prem the lower team you get in Championship (i.e. 18th in Prem would play 3rd in Championship whilst 15th would play 6th). Keep both leagues fresh all the way til the end of the season.

Oh, and I heard it off my friends sisters boyfriends illegitimate son that we're definitely signing David Villa because he likes our name... I've written that down now so it must be true.

I'll look at the New York thing, be nice if I could break up the holiday a little as 14 days at a Theme park seems a little much!! We had thought about visiting Daytona Beach and Kennedy Space Centre if possible too but know nothing of US at all.

Theme Parks are purely because it's big brash America and relatively 'safe'. For our first trip we wanted relatively easy experience on a main tourist trail. Last year I camped around 14 countries in Europe over three weeks so, whilst I appreciate the cultural side of life, my other half in particular wanted a mainstream simple holiday... with four walls rather than a tent!!

Have been looking at relatively late deals to Orlando for the end of this month/ early August but, never having been to the US before, I'm getting a little confused by what you really need/ scale of area.

In summary we want to go for 14 days, we want to go to Universal mostly but have a maybe a day at one Disney Park (so expensive) and see if we can get a day or two at a beach area like Daytona perhaps?

We've got a budget of approximately £3k for two of us but flights and hotel look like taking up two thirds of that. I can't go any other time of the year as I'm a teacher!! Do we need a car as well?

Having looked around and all the different permutations, taxes, costs of food etc are we not going to have enough money?

Flights/ Hotel (RO) - £2k (Thomson)

Theme Parks - £400

Transport? Food? General spending money? I'm well short aren't I?!

Any advice? Or should I just give up and go to Spain...

After the huge discussion over this years kit I wondered what people wear to the match. Maybe someone could add a poll?

For many years I've bought at least the home kit and I've decided maybe now is the time to stop, go retro and get rid of the sponsors etc! Trying to decide between the 80/81 home top (I was born in 80) or the 82 top for obvious reasons.

So what do you wear to a match?

Current Home Kit?

Recent Home Kit?

A kit that means something to you?

A retro kit?

Training gear?

Nothing Villa related?

A player who inspired hope in the masses after a depressing event, who goes on to have an explosive start and a fairly impressive career here.

DION DUBLIN. Got us all wondering "Who's Dwight Yorke again?!".

Whilst I have more excitement this year than last, and I have bought my season tickets, I have a very big worry that expectations have been lowered considerably and we're now happy to be a midtable team. Even as fans.

I'm not saying we have a divine right to be higher but I do feel we should at least be fighting for Top 6/ Europe.

I hear talk of keeping the wage bills down, selling Given because we can get better value with inferior players, letting go of Ireland because we can't afford his wages and his perceived on-off performance levels and replacing our experienced players with promising youngsters from the Championship. That all smacks of a mid-table team. You could say it smacks of being West Brom!

I know that this is a more complex issue than just throwing money at the situation and wanting multi-million pound purchases. But I just don't like fan expectation being so, for want of a better word, dreary. We are almost saying we don't want any star/luxury players because they don't fit our wage structure.

How can fans want us to sell the likes of Bent, Ireland and Given to get in younger/cheaper/less skilful players simply because they are 'honest' and 'hard-working' etc. I want to be excited and Lambert has brought some of that back but if we get rid of all of the star players, or dare I say 'house-hold names', then we become nothing more than a standard BORING midtable team. And I don't think we are yet - we're an underachieving, low on morale team that should be fighting Top 6.

I hope what I'm trying to say is coming across as it's meant. I'm all for big change, it's needed, but fans at the very least should be pushing for more. I feel as though Lerner has achieved his aim of stifling expectation to such a low level it's depressing!

Bit of advice (if using Zebra)

Got two season tickets the day McLeish resigned through Zebra. Followed all instructions, got pin, did everything and approved. But nothing from the club.

Waited til Lambert was officially unveiled (for some sort of harmony in my ticket buying process!!) to phone ticket office but was told by Villa they'd received nothing from Zebra even though payments have already started coming out!

Fortunately they apparently have a Zebra team with them at the moment so they sorted it out there and then. So just phone to make sure they've communicated with each other!!

No Welcome Pack til July/August though.

£25M + the proceeds of the hutton sale.

So £1m to account for the £24m we'd have to pay a team to take Hutton away?!

Whilst I believe that Lambert is likely to become our manager within the next few days, I highly doubt there will be any significant funds - that's just Villa fans hoping for all their Christmases!

We will continue to wheel and deal with minimal outlay, a theory slightly supported by Lambert himself; he's the kind of manager a team wanting to spend wisely would sign as he's never had an open cheque book. Otherwise you'd go for the Capello/AVB route.

Fantasy football... bring in Messi, Villa etc...

But if trying to add a bit of realism to this scenario, you'd have to look at the training, philosophy and atmosphere of the club as much as the personnel.

Sit down with the players, get their views but tell them who's boss. I'd speak to Lerner and insist that disciplinary decisions must be backed by the board and if that means player being sold then so be it.

Looking at the squad, I'd try to make small changes at first. Clean slate for all players but make them aware pre-season is vital and everyone is fighting for positions. Bring in another striker regardless - maybe someone like Holt who could be a good signing but would be relatively cheap (as far as British strikers go). I'd resign Cueller, if nothing else his experience is vital. Would look at two or three more additions for squad depth, but probably have to be cheap(er) buys from relegated teams and the like - players such as Fletcher.

I'd ultimately switch to a formation that added width to the team, giving Ireland and N'Zogbia space to be adventurous but with a solid central midfield pairing.

I'd let a bunch of kids go out on loan, Carruthers, Gardner etc til January. See how the beginning of the season goes and make some additions in January. Ensure we are a more adventurous team, attacking at home and playing more counter-attack against better teams away.

In all likelihood, I'd listen to offers for Hutton, Albrighton, Delfouneso and Collins.

Hopefully get the club between 8-10th in first season and attempt to build from a better footing.

Continue to assess and review players based on wages/contribution and continue to refresh the squad in year two. Perhaps see the likes of Dunne and Warnock departing.

Year 2 and the aim would be firmly on securing European qualification. Once we have addressed wages, ask Lerner for a bigger injection of funds for Year three in keeping with progress and success.

Or I'd just hide in my dugout, count my money and wait for my huge compensation for being sacked...