AVFC-Prideofbrum

Anyone else think Messi has just got a little bored and decided that "I want to score some chipped goals" so he has, next month he might go for scoring goals off the left post just because he can.

I remember Cruff saying that as a player he started trying to score penalties off the posts and cross bar in games they had already won just for the challenge.

It seems as though Messi can do anything he wants with the ball so I think someone should tell him "enough of the chips lad, we want your next 10 goals to be back heels"

Interestingly, Guardiola was interviewed at the weekend.

He was asked somethign like "Some people are saying Messi is too elaborate sometimes and showboats, what do you think?"

And his reply was a categorical denial.

He said that if there's anyone in football that doesn't showboat it's Messi. Whatever he does it's because he thinks it's the most effective way to do it. If he lobs the keeper, that's because in his eyes that's the most likely way he's going to score in that situation.

I'm inclined to believe him too

Me too. When I've seen Messi play and score, which these days seems to mean the same thing, he just seem to put the ball where the biggest possibility for it to reach the net is. For a striker he has the perfect mix of great technical skills and the right mentality. He seems to always look at the goal instead of the keeper and has the technique to score however he wants. I haven't seen as much of him as I think you all have, but if there's one tiny thing I could criticise him on is that he never seems to score from distance. And by that I mean 25-30 yards screamers in the top corner. I might be wrong on that one, though, and even if I'm right it really doesn't take anything away from his greatness.

You're not really wrong but I think it's a club mentality. You don't see Barcelona often just try their luck from outside the box. When you keep the ball for so long and have players with such brilliant control over a football, then they are best to work the ball into better shooting opportunities rather than try to score from distance which a lot of the time, isn't going to end well.

He has scored goals from distance in the past, Champions League final for starters.

go to about 2.30 for the actual 'screamers' of course he has the ability to score from distance and there are definitely moments when he could take the shot on rather than dribble, look for a through ball but sometimes I think it's just a mentality he and Barcelona has that over time, that through ball, that extra touch /dribble will be more effective on more occasions than hitting the shot. If Messi starts shooting more, he'll also start to become more wasteful, times when instead of shooting, he could pass the ball wide and then go and get the next ball and score. For every great goal he could score, most likely the other 7/8, he'll have wasted possession in dangerous areas.

I want to see highlights of the Madrid game now.

I also want to know what AVFC prideofbrum thinks of the refereiing of this game.

I did not see the game, I was at a presentation evening.

I'm guessing the referee was poor, oh well it evens itself out throughout the season. :winkold:

Real have had plenty of luck this season which has been pointed out by quite a few people with some favourable decisions. To say Refs are Pro Barca as someone above has to me is comical from what I've seen this season, wrong decisions corrected and I think that gap at top of table would be a lot closer.

Admittedly I was only looking at starting spots. Yeah they have definitely dropped a few points this season when didn't change too much but I do believe a more consistant team choice would see this title race go all the way to the last games which sadly doesn't seem the case.

Barcelona are the best team in the world when it comes down "in a one off game, who would you bet on to win" ...Barcelona would be top of everyones list, well should be IMO.

I think Barca have gifted Real the title though this season, mainly down to far too much rotation in the team and lack of depth at times. if Barca have injuries, it's usually likes of Adriano, Keita, Cuenca coming in, while Real have Khediera, Kaka, Benzema etc... and also as I said, rotation. Sometimes even with players fit in big games they needed to win, he's rested important players for no particular reasons and it's cost them points.

26 league games this season;

top appearances over 20 games;

Valdes; 26

Messi; 25

Alves; 24

Abidal; 22

Xavi; 22

Busquets; 21

Fabregas; 20

Real Madrid:

Casillias; 26

Ronaldo; 26

Ozil; 25

Xabi Alonso; 25

Sergio Ramos; 24

Higuain; 24

Kaka; 22

Marcelo; 22

Benzema; 22

Pepe; 20

When you look at the appearances and also the players mentioned, can give an indication into why Barca have maybe dropped points in quite a few more games.

Barca dropped points;

Sociedad; Puyol, Pique, Abidal, Mascherano, Iniesta, Messi, Villa all not playing.

Valencia; Pique, Iniesta, Villa, Sanchez.

Sevilla; Pique, Puyol, Busquets, Pedro, Sanchez, Fabregas.

Bilbao; Puyol, Sanchez, Villa/Pedro.

Getafe; Mascherano, Puyol, Iniesta, Fabregas.

Espanyol; Played strongest team.

Villarael; Iniesta, Sanchez, Villa/Pedro.

Osasuna; Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas (all 4!)

Obviously, it's difficult to get every player into the team but Barca when they played Real Madrid played the strongest team of

Valdes

Alves Puyol Pique/Masch Abidal

Busq

Xavi Fabregas Iniesta

Sanchez Messi.

In whatever formation, either 4-3-3, 3-4-3 etc...

In most of those games mentioned and pretty much every game this season, that side has rarely ever played. The games before, he's left key midfielders out for likes of Keita, Thiago, (even Sergo Roberto)...strikers, plenty of times he left out Villa/Sanchez/Pedro for someone like Adriano.

Real Madrid players alongside those mentioned above who have played double figure games;

Arbeloa, Khedeira, Di Maria, Coentrao, Diarra, Callejon.

Barcelona players; Pique, Puyol, Adriano, Iniesta, Keita, Villa, Sanchez, Pedro, Cuenca, Mascherano, Thiago.

so whether through injuries, rotation or most likely, both. I do think Real Madrid have won the title through Barca weakening their squad in games more than anything. That's not Real Madrid's fault at all, they have done their job brilliantly and deservedly will win the title but when it comes down to it, 11 vs 11, I think Barcelona definitely have the edge over Real Madrid as proven on various occasions.

It's quite annoying because Barca won the title last year through a middle period with something like 20 wins in 21 games where during that run, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Pedro, Villa, Messi was the front 6 for at least 15/16 of them and in the other games, just a single player would come in, I.e. Mascha for Busquets or Keita for Xavi, Bojan for Pedro. Never 3/4 changes to midfield/attack like it is now. They had that consistancy which is never their now and I think that has cost them.

I actually spoke to James Milner the other day, he told me he was gutted he couldn't play week in week out with the quality of Alan Hutton, James Collins and Emile Heskey. Apparently Silva, Toure and Aguero aren't quite on the same wavelength as him and he's really frustrated with their league position, claiming battling to finish in that top 12 is far more exciting than looking for a League title.

Honest.

Depressing thread for a man who used to have and love a dog. Very sad.

For me, Messi wont be the best player in the world ever until he performs at International level

This.

He plays in the best team in Spain so it's easy for him to dominate the weaker Spanish opposition.

He also has players like Xavi and Iniesta to help him.

If Messi is the best player ever then he should be able to perfom without all his Barca team-mates.

Pele won the World Cup.

Maradona won the World Cup.

Messi needs to win the World Cup before he can claim to be the best player ever.

Not sure if I agree with this. What if a player with ability nobody has ever seen before was born in Malta? Would he not be allowed to be classed as the greatest footballer ever just because he was Maltese and the national team he played for was shit and never won the World Cup?

I know its very unlikely but some food for thought.

The one that springs to mind for me is Jari Litmanen. An awesome talent. Never got the recognition he deserved because he came from Finland and played in a poor Finland team.

Messi is Argentinian though.

Argentina are one of the heavyweight football nations so Messi cannot use that excuse.

Have you ever considered that football is a team game and IF team mates do not pull their weight then it would be impossible for him to win the cup. So how can you base it on the single event?

are you honestly telling me that say, it's 4-4 on penalties vs Spain in world cup final, Aguero to win ....he misses. Spain score and then Mascherano misses. Spain win.

Because of this, Messi can not be called best player in world? How can you define the best player in the world on moments of his team mates and and although the scenario I pointed out is unlikely, the idea that Argentina going out because they didn't do enough as a TEAM is highly probable. Failure, nor success cannot be pointed on one players shoulders. If Lionel Messi is to pick up the trophy, it'll be because Argentina were organised defensively, played good football and each member of the squad did a good job when called upon.

talk about gabby and not being able to play the lone striker puzzles me, does every1 forget when carew was injured and gabby played the lone striker for 6 games?

Guess what we won all 6, so he must do something right for the team cos now thats 7 times he has been lone striker and we have won them all

Was actually a spell of 11 games and I believe we won 8, drew 3. (or at very worst, won 7, drew 4)

Also then used for 4 games during the 09-10 season and we won all 4.

Disappointed that this is most likely a sign McLeish will sign. As for the signing itself, reserving judgement as can't remember ever seeing him play, hopefully add some competition out wide though and if you are to be competitive, a couple free transfers isn't a bad way to go to bulk out the squad. Can't imagine big wages either.

What can't he do?

Luckily I don't really get hangovers, never had a headache after a night of drinking. I don't have to do anything different from normal day living which is handy.

Yeah but you're about 12.

Wait until you grow up.... and you will.

You will suffer like the rest of us. :cry:

am 20 in few months, how time flies!

Probably right though, although my Mom and her side are heavy drinkers but don't really get hangovers so hoping I'm the same!

Luckily I don't really get hangovers, never had a headache after a night of drinking. I don't have to do anything different from normal day living which is handy.

We have a great chance with the safe position we are in to give a go to the younger lads, even more so.

Would it really hurt to try Gardner, Weimann, Lichaj all in the same team for a couple games? I don't think so. As BOF says, we aren't going to be taking out excellent players for them, Lichaj for Hutton or Warnock. Weimann up top, Gardner and Herd in central midfield. I left out Albrighton and Herd because both are pretty much regulars now anyway.

How would he fancy Stoke on a freezing pissy night in December....?

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no you did not just say that in all seriousness did you?

Very much THIS!

I was looking for a smiley in the original post to indicate it was a joke, but I don't think it was!

I stand by my comments, the history of football in this country is littered with the corpses of fancy-dan foreigners with big reputations that haven't fancied the game over here.

All I'm trying to say I suppose is that whilst he's playing in a side with Xavi, Iniesta, Alves, Mascherano, Villa, Fabregas and Sanchez he's going to look a bit tasty and have the platform to perform as well as he does.

Yes but do you not realise he is the focal point of the team and the man they look to and give the ball to at every opportunity in order for the team to create and well be at it's best. He is a step above all of his team mates and is the reason why this Barcelona team is looked upon as one of the greatest.

Oh and as for your top comment, the English Prem is changing and has been for a while.

Just look at the best players in the top teams.

Wayne Rooney

David Silva

Juan Mata

Robin Van Persie

Luka Modric

Luis Suarez

Technically, they are all brilliant players. The idea that Lionel Messi would struggle is an embarrassing and quite extra-ordinary view IMO. He is the best player in the world, it's not just any player is it.

Messi is an outstanding footballer.... is he the best ever..... for me no.

When you play week in week out with probably 4 of the other top 10 best players in the world, it probably helps.

Completely irrelevant when you actually sit down and take the time to watch him play. His strength, his movement, the tricks, the goals, the slips. I mean shit, for 5'6" he's even fairly decent in the air.

Outstanding doesn't come close for me. I think the majority of people who don't believe him to be "The Best Ever" (which is in reality impossible to nail down) are in denial. They can't comprehend the fact that he's alive and playing now and they can watch him every week if they wish to.

But it's true, it's the luck of the draw. Go enjoy.

You do get the feeling that the people who can't admire his brilliance for all it's worth are the people who just simply read that he's scored goals at the weekend before watching 2/3 games in the Champions League against English sides.

Because we've never seen goalscoring rates like it in England and don't actually watch him play at all regularly = standard must be shit, a lot to do with people around him etc..

as for the line about cold night in Stoke.

I think that's completely fair. I mean could Lionel Messi really give Ryan Shawcross the drop of the shoulder or could he get the ball and put it through the legs of Richard Stearman. I mean, imagine him pulling away to the right and Stephen Warnock coming over to close him down, what he would do with the ball? Kick it out of play and tell the lads to regroup I imagine.

Messi is an outstanding footballer.... is he the best ever..... for me no.

When you play week in week out with probably 4 of the other top 10 best players in the world, it probably helps.

Crondaldo has a better goal scoring record in his league but goes unmentioned, and also below the top 4/5 in Spain, you essentially have a bunch of low level Championship standard teams, it is nowhere near as competitive as the PL for example.

Barca are 16 points clear of 3rd place, Madrid are 26 points clear - its madness. Looking at the PL, 26 points is the gap between 1st and 7th. Messi is a fabulous player, in not a very competitive league. To be the greatest ever, for me he would need to repeat his performances outside of the best club side in the world. How would he fancy Stoke on a freezing pissy night in December....?

Bilbao are 7th,

Atletico Madrid 8th

Sevilla 12th

Villarreal are 17th.

I think the view you have is so typical and narrow minded of a lot of people in England.

It maybe is slightly weaker overall but certainly don't think there is huge differences, especially looking at the Premier League this season, Villa have served up a pile of shite this season and yet we are 6 points behind 7th.

It's also made to look less competitive by the quality of the two big teams mentioned.

Swap Real Madrid + Barca for United + City and I think La Liga gap would look closer in terms of 1st - 3rd, while gap would increase by a few points in the PL.

To call teams below 4th/5th in La Liga just championship teams is stupid for me.

Ronaldo is an unbelievable player, a great goalscorer and has been working on his all round team play, I think what sets the two apart is just the extra work outside the box and creation of chances. Just my opinion but Real Madrid have others who are the heart of Real Madrid's attacks but Ronaldo is always there to finish it off or get a shot off, Messi is the main man when it comes to creating chances through the middle for Barca and also has the ridiculous goals to add as well.

Wouldn't call him a flat track bully as such but I do think his problem during the real tougher games against teams of similar or around Madrid's ability is that he can be wasteful in possession in terms of shooting from ridiculous places, if you aren't going to dominate the ball as much as usual or create as much as usual, sometimes you need to be more precise with attacks and too many times, I think especially last season against Barca, he'd try the spectacular for himself when building an attack would be more useful.

Brilliant player, unfortunate timing really.

Think already said that if believed Maradona was the better player then Messi winning a world cup/not winning a world cup should have nothing to do it and visa versa IMO. If he got knocked out the quarerter finals, semi finals, runner up or won it, he's still the same plays with the same ability and proven as a player who can perform at crucial times to win huge competitions. I just think for people who have seen both players, the debate should be easier and just a question of 'who was the better footballer' rather than what they won. The way people find their answer annoys me, not the actual answer. If people think Maradona is the better footballer let's say in may 2014. Then I don't personally believe Messi winning a world cup should change that opinion either, well unless he ridiculously stepped his game to levels we've not seen and then carried that through to the point where you thought he was the better player.

I don't get why it's so complicated 'he has to win this' ...'he needs to play in this league' ...'he needs to play for a smaller club' ..surely it's just a case (as long as form of Messi is continued to high levels for number of years) of who was the better footballer?

I hope i make it clear that I don't believe Messi to be better than Maradona but I will always talk about Messi being the best I've seen because I've not seen others. I hope Messi goes down as the greatest in the eyes of those that saw Maradona and other greats but only if it's deemed worthy due to believing he is a better player, not just because he won a tournament.

I wanna see Young win it go Ash!

To be fair, for all we know, he could have had £1,000 on a city win!

50 in his last 43!

For those who say he needs to win world cup, can people please answer I posed a few pages back.

Also 'until he performs on the international stage' ...I am not just saying it but he is their best player pretty much every game. Because of the strikers available to Argentina, he doesn't score as many because others play further forward than him, he has something like 10 assists and 7 goals in last 14 internationals. I'd call that pretty decent. It's not at ridicolous levels but that is naturally to be expected, just like players such as C. Ronaldo have lesser goal rates. Playing in a weaker team with players you don't play with every week, different way of playing etc..

Why is it that others not pulling their weight counts as 'Messi not performing' ... Is it because you just stumble upon Argentina's result in the week and the fact he isn't as prolific in internationals and that means he doesn't perform? I guess you could say I'm biased towards a single player and to be pissy about it, I do watch the Argentina games through the early hours and Messi rarely ever let's his country down.

As for 'have to win the world cup' again as said

If Messi has an average world cup personally but Argentina won it because Aguero, Higuain,

Di Maria etc have a brilliant tournament, he is best in world.

If Messi has a brilliant world cup but Argentina go out in semi's on say penalties then he can't be considered the best cause let's say mascherano missed a penalty with chance to put Argentina through to final etc...? This logic makes no sense.

I scored the best goal I will probably ever score in my entire life yesterday with the last kick of the game to win a match 2-1, before going back in changing room and finding out Weimann had scored winner in injury time. Yesterday was definitely a very good day.

I used to drink 8-10 Litres of Coke a week, barely drink it now, just when I go home.

His 1,000 goals include exhibition games and training sessions. He did and his arse score 1,000 goals. You'll note they never say he scored 1,000 competitive goals. It's a myth trotted out whenever it suits his argument.

Feck me, I may just be leading all time goalscorer in football then if we're counting training sessions.