wiggyrichard

just be aware that are legal system isn't perfect. There will be cases in the future that shape the laws regarding all sorts of crime.

I bet you if venables had killed again they would review the system.

He shouldnt under no circumstances have been released again, and have the chance to reoffend.

I think the punishment his killers received is underplayed to the point people seem to think they walked into prison and walked back out after 5 mins of looking around.

Are you trying to say that their punishment was fitting for the crime they committed?

No that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm here saying that people seem to underestimate the punishment they got.

If you wished me to say whether I thought the punishment they got was fitting, then I would say yes it was. As 10 year old children they were given sentences that were to last until, at least, their adulthood, after which they were held on strict life licenses. I think that's quite a harsh punishment for a child, and fitting of the crime.

But that's largely because I believe our justice system is pretty good, and also because I don't believe in the death penalty for any one let alone children.

IMO they have got away with it.

They were given a better education than most, 3 meals a day and a roof over there head.

And your trying to say the justice system is good?!?!?

I think the punishment his killers received is underplayed to the point people seem to think they walked into prison and walked back out after 5 mins of looking around.

Are you trying to say that their punishment was fitting for the crime they committed?

Having your freedom and childhood removed from you, in one case for quite a length of time, and in another forever, is quite a punishment imo.

Just because as a society we've learned to take freedom for granted does not mean that it's not something to be missed.

Lets not forget the crime these two committed.

Although I work in a YOI that contains some of the nastiest scum it is possible to encounter, I am no expert on criminal law (i am not a prison officer btw) However, If Venables has a 'life licence' I think that any transgression of that can lead him back to serve the rest of a 'life' sentence.

I wonder if I might comment on conditions in a YOI (the one where I work anyway).In an article referenced by snowychap, the author claimed that prisons in Scotland were harsh (or something like that). Where I work there a 3 categories:- Basic, Standard and Enhanced. prisoners can progress to Enhanced based on their behaviour. An Enhanced prisoner has his own TV in his cell and can have Playstation if he can afford it; also his own curtains and bits like that. There are no computers, thus no internet and no Sky tv, as is sometimes suggested in the press.

Personally, I reckon that the regime is too easy and suggest that many of them would spend all day watching tv and playing on a playstation if the were on the out ! Whether the above is suitable punishment for murderers and rapists I will leave you to decide.

And some on here claim they have served there punishment?!?!

And I'm happy to admit that if it happened to my child I'd want to hunt down the killers and kill them myself.

But that doesn't make it right.

Im not saying its right, im just saying that IS what 99% of the population would want to do.

You are saying it's right, you specifically said that the parents should decide on the 'justice'. You want to live in a primitive civilisation with no proper judicial system at all. Don't backtrack, that's what you're arguing for.

Im not backtracking, its not right what i beleive hence it will never happen, the parents will NEVER be able to decide the punishment, but i feel in extreme cases such as these they should.

So surely you are saying it's right in extreme cases?

That is what I was taking issue with.

Im saying that in extreme cases such as the one in question, then yes that is what i would like to see happen.

Heres the question again, what would you want as the punishment if it was your child that had been murdered?

well thankfully it's not down to individuals to make these decisions ..

Yeah if someone harmed my child i'm gonna be mightily pissed , but would i take the law into my own hands and go off and kill the perpetrators ..almost certainly not , would i want the death penalty for them ? probably not ..... that doesn't mean I wouldn't be devastated but I don't have it in my to kill someone it's as simple as that ..and once you remove the bravado of a website nor would any of the rest of you either ..and that's why we have courts of law , they may not be flawless but it's far better than vigilantes running around the place

these kids were 10 when they committed the initial crime , I can't begin to work out how a 10 year old can commit a crime like that but a part of my would think they could be rehabilitated ... in this instance it seems one has and one hasn't .. If his new crime is serious then Venables should stay in prison for the rest of his life

If someone harmed your child, i think you would be a little more than pissed...

Your entitled to your opinion as much as im entitled to mine, and i would bet that your feelings would change if it was infact you in James Bulgers parents shoes.

I can honestly say that if anyone harmed my child i would not rest until they were dead.

And I'm happy to admit that if it happened to my child I'd want to hunt down the killers and kill them myself.

But that doesn't make it right.

Im not saying its right, im just saying that IS what 99% of the population would want to do.

You are saying it's right, you specifically said that the parents should decide on the 'justice'. You want to live in a primitive civilisation with no proper judicial system at all. Don't backtrack, that's what you're arguing for.

Im not backtracking, its not right what i beleive hence it will never happen, the parents will NEVER be able to decide the punishment, but i feel in extreme cases such as these they should.

You are dodging the question Snowy, so your telling me that if god forbid it was your child in question and someone offered you the chance to decide the punishment you would turn it down? Thats bullshit and you know it.

Heres the question again, what would you want as the punishment if it was your child that had been murdered?

No, I am not dodging the question and kindly don't tell me that what I have said I would or wouldn't do is bullshit.

Just because it isn't what you would do, doesn't mean that it isn't what someone else would do.

I think that is part of the problem with your opinion and your answers in this thread.

Most (if not all) of the people who have disagreed with you on this thread, I'd suggest, understand the idea of vengeance and, probably, are not too uncomfortable with people having those feelings. Where they have a problem is with allowing those feelings to dictate the level of punishment of offenders in a criminal justice system or thinking that it is fine for people to act upon those feelings and that these actions would constitute justice.

You, however, don't seem to be able to allow for the possibility that someone else's reaction to this might be different or for the possibility that, even if their feelings mirrored yours, they would be able and prepared to detach themselves from the situation.

I will add a rider to all of this: because we are only talking about future hypothetical situations, none of us know for certain how we would react, we can only give our position as we would think it now. As for that, this does allow for the possibility that were I ever to be in that situation, I might turn out to be a maniac hellbent upon revenge and for the possibility that were you, wiggyrichard, ever to be in that situation, you might decide on a different stance than the one you take now.

What I can say is that, dispassionately and objectively, if I were to be that vengeful person then I would consider myself to be in the wrong.

Still not a straight answer.

Yes im talking about a future hypothetical situation, and im saying what i would WANT as a punishment, what i would WANT as a parent of the victim in this hypothetical situation would be to see those 2 boys dead.

Please oh please just give me a straight answer as to what you as a parent would WANT as punishment.

And I'm happy to admit that if it happened to my child I'd want to hunt down the killers and kill them myself.

But that doesn't make it right.

Im not saying its right, im just saying that IS what 99% of the population would want to do.

ok, let me answer it for you.

If my child was murdered by a 10 year old, i would expect the law to jail for 100 years the murderer AND his parents.

and in a Afghani jail, not a British jail.

If my 10 year old child murdered another child, i would expect to be jailed/hung with my child.

Finally an answer.

I was simply arguing the point that hanging 2 10 year old boys was right because it's what the parents of the victim would have wanted.

So you agree with me then Steve after all that?

Heres the question again, what would you want as the punishment if it was your child that had been murdered?

he has basically said that he will accept whatever punishment the state gives to him or his child.

maybe the question you should ask is - if you were in the legal system & had been tasked with setting the law for cases like this, what would you set the punishment as?

Thats not what im asking, my question is as it sounds.

Still no-one is prepared to answer the question...

My answer would be that it wouldn't be for me as a member of the family of a victim to have any input (other than the input as a member of the society whose laws have been transgressed) into the sentence given.

Everyone stop dodging the question, what would you want if it was your child, how would you want them punished? Its a simple question.

I'm not dodging the question.

If you don't understand the answer given, that is your problem.

I'll answer it again, though, in case it helps:

I wouldn't want to have any input in to the level of their punishment.

You are dodging the question Snowy, so your telling me that if god forbid it was your child in question and someone offered you the chance to decide the punishment you would turn it down? Thats bullshit and you know it.

Heres the question again, what would you want as the punishment if it was your child that had been murdered?

Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem

No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want?

But there are some people in this world who, for example, if they had a daughter who was mugged when she was 18, would want her mugger to be killed. Does that make the punishment for muggiong someone being death right, just because the parent of the victim thought it was just?

No it doesnt, but we are not talking about a mugging are we mate?

So?

Again surely that proves that what the parent wants isn't always correct? Just because the crime is different doesn't make what the parent wants to be correct.

Im not saying it is, im simply saying what i would want if i was the victims parent.

Still no-one is prepared to answer the question...

My answer would be that it wouldn't be for me as a member of the family of a victim to have any input (other than the input as a member of the society whose laws have been transgressed) into the sentence given.

Everyone stop dodging the question, what would you want if it was your child, how would you want them punished? Its a simple question.

Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem

No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want?

It's irrelevant, Stuwall.

Still no-one is prepared to answer the question, because everyone is trying to be the model citizen and are shit scared as to what their answer would be.

REGARDLESS of whether I was the parent of the victim or the guilty, I would want the CHILD put away, then released with the chance to live within the law. If they re-offended I would want them put away again. This AFAIK is what has happened and I don't think we can have too many complaints with it.

Well if you would be happy with that punishment if it were your child then thats fine, but i wouldnt, that is where we are different my friend.

And to answer your question, the parents should decide their fate

Hold on, a couple of pages ago I asked:

Is your argument that it should be up to the victim (or victim's relation) to decide upon the punishment?

And you said:

No, my arguement is that they should be held responsable for the crimes they committed, whatever the punishment.

When, in fact, I had read your argument correctly in that you think it should be down to the victim's family to decide upon the punishment.

Well, seeing as though you believe that this is the way in which the level of punishment ought to be decided and, I'm assuming, this is what would satisfy your definition of justice, I'd like to ask you one more question:

What if the family of a murder victim wanted them to serve no sentence?

It would never happen

Well instead of just mocking my posts, lets hear what your justice system would be to deal with Thompson and Venables...

Imprisonment for an indeterminate term, with psych-analysis to determine if and when they are fit to be released. Then once they are declared to not be a risk release on license with monitoring by the probation service to ensure that the decision was correct, with them being recalled if it looks like they pose a risk to society.

...oh... wait...

Tried that...didnt work...

Except it did work, seeing as how he's back inside now?

How did it work? He re-offended...

Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem

No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want?

It's irrelevant, Stuwall.

Still no-one is prepared to answer the question, because everyone is trying to be the model citizen and are shit scared as to what their answer would be.

Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem

No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want?

But there are some people in this world who, for example, if they had a daughter who was mugged when she was 18, would want her mugger to be killed. Does that make the punishment for muggiong someone being death right, just because the parent of the victim thought it was just?

No it doesnt, but we are not talking about a mugging are we mate?

Well instead of just mocking my posts, lets hear what your justice system would be to deal with Thompson and Venables...

Imprisonment for an indeterminate term, with psych-analysis to determine if and when they are fit to be released. Then once they are declared to not be a risk release on license with monitoring by the probation service to ensure that the decision was correct, with them being recalled if it looks like they pose a risk to society.

...oh... wait...

Tried that...didnt work...

Your last question, **** smoking, drinking, getting married and stopping out late...

Why? Because you cannot get your head around the point of the question?

The point of the question is how society elects to treat minors.

If you are going to treat them on the same level as adults (with the same level of legal responsibility for their actions) then surely you need to give them the same legal rights as adults.

Why don't we give 10 year olds (or minors of whatever age who pass your 'understanding' test) the legal right to do what any adult is legally allow to do?

Snowy, with all due respect, how often does a crime such as this happen?

Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem

No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want?

Let me ask you Jon, do you have children?

Not entirely sure what Jon having children has to do with the price of fish let alone this but I do have a child and not only that I'm about to go to work. Why am I telling you this? Because my office faces the Strand Shopping Centre in Bootle where the start of this sorry chain of events happened. I have lived and do work in the middle of all of this, where everyone has an opinion on it and mostly all share your sense of moral outrage, the ones interviewed on the telly all last week (in fact the TV vans were parked outside our office for days), most of the people interviewed, I rub shoulders with them on a daily basis. They and you are in my opinion wrong, it's that simple. The world you appear to want to live in is the stuff of dark comic books, ultimately what you all want is a caped avenger to come in and clear the streets of scum, well that can't be allowed to happen, we have a legal system and it needs to be allowed to go through its motions without the hindrance of all the emotive crap that currently surrounds these issues.

So i will ask you the Bickster, god forbid, but if it was your child, what punishment would you see fit for the two of them?

Just because you think my opinion is wrong doesnt mean i am. The legal system is floored, you, me and everyone who posts on here knows it.

Well if you got your way, the legal system certainly would have reached the bottom but if its flawed, it flawed in way that you probably don't think it to be.

You've forgot to type your answer to my question...

No I chose to ignore it because in my opinion it's an idiotic question that doesn't require an answer as in that terrible eventuality it wouldn't be up to me anyway, nor should it

Dont shy away from it, i answered you, or are you scared of what your answer will be?