CVByrne

Only difference is the Uions rule thing country and can fight tooth and nail for theirmembers. The workers in the Private Sector dont. They just take it on the chin as there is nothing they can do.

Nothing? Are private sector banned from joining unions? No. Well looks like that's where your problem is. If the workers don't get organised they get fkd over. And the ones that get fkd over point at the ones that get organised and howl 'not fair'. Same argument over state pensions has been going in the UK for the past 3 years, all because the private sector workers meekly gave up their pension rights whilst the public sector decided not to be pussies and fought to keep the rights they had been promised.

Private Sector have unions but when a company has lost loads of money and simply can't pay their workers anymore what can a Union do? The Company needs to lay people off, cut pay or go bust.

The Government are in that situation right now, our tax take is down some 15bln, from around 60bln to just above 40bln. How can they now borrow to pay public sector wages? By doing so they will have to pay higher interest on that borrowing and there by worsening the financial situation. They've already raised taxes and are now broadening the tax base too.

So please tell me what they should do if they can't cut any public sector pay?

no **** word removed of a banker should get any bonus's for the forseeable future

the excuse for them before was it got the brightest of talents well how shit has that turned out to be ...

Nonsense. Most people who work in banks are hard working people on a normal wage. The system is to incentivise workers to do their best so part of your wage is paid as a bonus for your work. You meet targets and you get the bonus, you don't and you wont. Just because it's called a bonus does not mean it's on top of your ordinary salary, it's a guaranteed as your monthly wage. It's part of your income.

It's a brilliant system when implemented correctly. Reward people for hard work and don't reward people who don't work hard. It's stigmatised now because certain people get obscene bonuses which is wrong.

But don't go think everyone who gets a bonus doesn't deserve it. If you meet your goals and don't get it it's a pay cut simple as that. Since it's in your contract as part of your salary.

I can see the logic of paying out some of the bonuses: there are some bankers who are making money for the banks, and without large bonuses they're apt to leave for non-nationalized banks... which would eventually leave the government's stake worthless.

People think bonuses are evil and should not be paid to these banker becuase they got us into this mess etc...

Totally unfair. Bonuses are contractual and are there to reward hard work. Back office workers who do the same job regardless of the economic situation deserve their bonuses and bonuses are there to reward the staff on their efforts that year.

Bonuses to executives are wrong considering it's their fault the banks are in trouble. But saying ordinary workers should take a pay cut is wrong. Bonuses are contractual, they are paid if you meet goals and are there to incentivise people to do their best. It's a system that should be applauded and implemented everywhere to reward hard work.

I despise the stigmatisation of the work bonus. It's a person salary nothing else.

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So what you are basically saying is that anyone who goes into the public sector should never expect a pay increase as that is something that should only be available to private sector workers via promotion?

No I think people should get pay increases in their jobs but not via Union talks directly with the Government. It's unfair and has just served to widen the public private pay gap and increases resentment between the two sectors.

The Public Sector Unions have had the Government over barrels, every budget surplus we had they wanted for their workers without any Public Sector reform. I don't agree in blanket pay rises, I believe people who deserve them should get them and lazy workers who don't pull their weight should not benefit.

Personally I'd rather performance related bonuses so that good workers are rewarded and those dead weight workers who give the sector a bad name are not rewarded.

My main beef with anyone in this world is I hate lazy people who don't try their best, who leech off the hard work of others. That is where my problem with the Public Sector comes from, people getting my tax money because of the bargaining of Unions and threat of industrial action rather than through hard work and improved services.

I have never taken a sick day in my life, I never come to work late, I've never asked for a pay increase, I've never asked for anything. My hard work is rewarded by my employer and I just wish everywhere was like that to at least some degree.

look at it this way, if a company takes in less money and is infinancial trouble it will have to lay off staff or bring in pay cuts.

The same thing is happening with the Government finances and pay cuts for workers is a necessity. Only difference is the Uions rule thing country and can fight tooth and nail for theirmembers. The workers in the Private Sector dont. They just take it on the chin as there is nothing they can do.

I just googled public private pay gap and got that finfacts. But papers have been full of facts and opinions on the whole matter. Can I ask do you currently live in Ireland HolteExile?

As for **** the teachers. I mean I'm fed up with people bringing up teachers and Nurses to defend their arguements about the Public Sector. They are a small portion of the sector. Nobody bring out a civil servant in from the Dept of Agriculture or a middle manager in the HSE.

The simple fact is teachers work far less hours and get amazing holidays yet get paid a very good wage, more than in other countries. Just because you're a teacher doesn't mean you're some kind of saint, I have plenty of friends who are primary teachers and are in it for the excellent holidays and easy working hours. They're no saints. They have it pretty handy actually. Per hour they are paid a very large sum that is for sure.

I shall always be of the opinion that people knew what the job they applied for was and how much it paid. Once you get the job it's unfair to get a powerful union to go and get you more money. Nobody has that option in the private sector. If you want more money get promoted. If you can't in the Public Sector you should have worked in the private sector where your hard work would be rewarded with a promotion.

One thing is for certain there will be zero public support for any industrial action by public sector workers so it will not happen.

Have a read of this to explain with more coherence and accuracy than I can about Public Private pay gap in Ireland.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015576.shtml

Problem was our budget surpluses came from stamp duty on property sales, money that was never sustainable and was bound to end at some point. The scale of our public finances mess is astonishing. Governmet had budgeted for 60bln in tax and only took in 40bln. That is a substantial hole, how on earth could it be tackled without touching anyones pay in the public sector?

We need to bring that 60bln figure down by pay and spending cuts and bring that 40bln figure up by broadening the tax base. We're going to need to borrown 15bln this year just to survive. It's a catastrophy.

Clarry you are spot on. Let me try to explain the huge anger felt by private sector workers now.

In ireland we had a system called benchmarking which was supposed to link public sector pay to private sector. It worked until the recent years of large budget surpluses in which case it has passed the private sector in terms of pay. Also the defined benefit pensions they also had were not a big thing until the recent collapse of private sector defined contribution pensions.

So now when our number of unemployed has doubled in a year and people in the private sector take pay cuts, (substantial in my case of 20%), the public sector are asked to share the pain and pay a levy on their pensions of 4-10%. Which they refused to take, now please someone tell me how it's fair that they have powerful Unions to fight for them yet the millions in private sector have nobody to fight for them?

One very excellent quote was "how do you benchmark against a P45 (pink slip)". You can't because nobody in Public sector will ever get one.

I must stress this has nothing at all to do with British public sector which is totally different to Ireland, they do not have this benchmarking process. Yes I have had a long standing anger at the Public Sector Unions but now the end has come people have looked around to see where all the money has gone. It's gone to certain over paid public servants. Some Public sector workers, in particular the Garda (police) are shockingly under paid while other areas are vastly over paid, why should a starting Central statistics Officer be paid 45,000? for example.

It's a big complex mess, but I don't have unfounded anger or allegations. Go read some editorials in the Irish Times.

Public sector are paid FAR more than the private sector. FACT. No disputing that at all. I can dig up reams of articles to state as much.

I think you had better get digging, then.

It might put the spade you have been using in your previous posts to better use.

A big point I need to make. People who are not from Ireland has no frame of reference. Our public sector is completely and utterly different to the British one.

Looks like the Public sector won't/can't go on strike because there isn't one ounce of sympathy for the private sector. New record amount of people have become unemployed this month.

I got confirmation today of what I expected. 20% pay cut. At least I still have a job.

[When others in the private sector were busy lining their pockets during the boom years, teachers and other public servants were for the most part no better off. A rising tide lifts all boats? Not in Ireland, clearly. Now the arse has fallen out of the economy and it's teachers who are expected to take the hit to their pensions, one of the few perks of the job.

This is the biggest load of rubbish I've ever read.

Public sector are paid FAR more than the private sector. FACT. No disputing that at all. I can dig up reams of articles to state as much. Just google it.

Public Sector pensions are miles better than private, by approx 20% it has been said. FACT.

Public sector are the ones who've benefited MOST from the boom and benchmarking.

People like to point to Laywers, Doctors, Bankers, Accountants etc.. who get more than the public sector workers. We'll there's a little thing people left out there, those people are the cream of the academic crop, they of course are going to get paid more than someone who goes into the public sector and more than 99% of the private sector who run businesses, who built homes, who work in shops.

All these people are being hammered, taking pay cuts, losing their jobs at DELL, and the **** public sector who have always had it better won't take a smll pay cut. People are SEETHING with anger.

I know people who have lost their jobs. Go tell them you won't take a 3.8% pension levy. Just because they don't have the powerful Unions to lay demands directly at the governments feet mean they are taking the hit. Noone else.

WAKE THE **** UP.

It's all smoke and mirrors from the govt, the only people gullable enough to swallow that are the types who usually blame the teachers for the ills of society anyway

Nonsense, my point was (through the anger) that teachers and nurses are the pople who are never attacked because they are the jobs which generate the sympathy from the public. Nobody was on RTE news sayng how much that civil servant in the department of agriculture will have to pay.

Bottom line is it's not nice having you pay cut. But it sure as hell is alot nicer than losing you job and pension like the people from Waterford Wedgewood. People in the public sector are sheltered and I know plenty of teachers who live comfortable and they're in their 20's.

So there is always some people who are going to take a hit they can't afford and that is unfortunate but inevitable. We need to stop worrying about 4% of our pay and look at the people who have lost everything and get a bit of perspective. All these poor teachers and nurses (my brother is a nruse) life comfortable, they've cars and homes and tv's and all still go drinking every weekend.

People can afford these cut backs we just don't want them, myself included, but I would not argue with any tax increases or reasonable pay cuts because I have got some perspective of how **** we are if we don't get the public finances in order, our AAA rating will be gone and borrowing will cost more hence worsening our financial situation and will result in more pay cuts.

Teachers won't lose their jobs, they'll pay a levy on their pensions, they'll still be there to teach our children. Thousands of people are losing their jobs every week. Our Budget deficit will take 5 years to fix. We are not in a recession, we're in a black hole and people who are sheltered in the public sector need to wake the **** up.

As for the 10% it can be a mix of increased tax and pay cuts, pay cuts can save business from going bust and hence keep people in employment meaning people paying tax and not taking benefit. Also pay cut in public sector reduced expenditure. We're already heading for deflation so that part is inevitable.

My main anger is that we don't have the courage to face reality and work together like we did before and save this country. We're more concerned with blame and taking care of our own pockets. When asked to take a pay cut and Irish person will list his or her 10 reasons why others should take cuts before you.

Our Government has to fix our budget and needs the public sector to take their share of the cuts. With a levy on their defined benefit pensions. 1.4bln is all, and the Social Partnership couldn't accept it. Industrial action looks liley and Moodys will downgrade our AAA status and hence our cost of borrowing will go up hence requiring more cuts and the spiral of doom.

The usual crap is wheeled out saying the poor teachers, poor nurses blah blah.

**** the teachers, they earn a **** fortune for doing half a years work. Straight out of College a teacher starts on 37,000. Thats 33,000 sterling, plus amazing pension and job for life. They're asked to take a 3.8% levy on their pensions like all public servants and they wont.

Nobody wants to take a pay cut, but people need to think of the people who are losing their jobs every **** day in the Private Sector, who's pension funds are gone bust. Tell them you won't take a 3.8% levy. **** disgrace. This country will never get out of this if the small first step like this leads to industrial action.

Anyone earning over 40,000 a year should take a 10% pay cut. EVERONE. That would be brave and could save our country. We won't because we're greedy and selfish.

No Ian. We were worthless poor depressed people in the 80's slaves to a despicable Catholic Curch. We make some very hard decisions and decided to work together to make Ireland a better place. We cut corporate tax to invite foreign investment, we created the social partnership so there would be no industrial action. We make 3rd Level education free to build an educated state. All of this created the Celtic Tiger and was a credit to this country.

But then we got greedy, we wanted money, more money and still want it. The more money we got the more inflation increased and the more pay increaes the Unions wanted. We paid huge public sector pay increases far beyond all European countries. How did we afford it? Of course we funded it with non sustainable stamp duties on property. We had a holy trinity of greed the Government, Property Developers and Banks. All equally to blame in all of this, but the people most to blame our ourselves, we were far more greedy than even them.

What do you expect banks to do? Make money

What do you expect Property Developers to do? Make themselves money

What do you expect the Government to do? Buy Votes and get re-elected.

But we were happy to play this game and we went property mad. You can't place the blame with them when nobody forced you to take out a 100% mortgage and buy a rediculously over priced house. Then people wanted another house becuase their neighbour had one and property prices only go one way. Greed Greed Greed.

Now we want to blame someone, it has fallen to the banks to take the blame. Despite the fact the entire world banking system is in tatters, only the banks in your country are the evil ones, they did all the harm to you.

Now we're back in the 80's, our country is a mess we can make the hard decisions and get us out of this. But we can't because we're not the brave people we once were, we're greedy **** cowards who deserve every single thing we get. We just want to blame someone other than accept we're all to blame in this mess.

All the respect I have for my country is gone, the last of it died today.

The brave thing would be cross party decisions on how to fix our country and we should accept their decisions, regardless of how much they take from our pay. We're all over paid as it is.

You're having a laugh. All our politician are criminals, but we re-elect them, we don't care they're lining their pockets while in Government. We don't seem to care they pay themselves more than any government in all of Europe. Our Prime Minister is paid more than Barak Obama FFS. And He sure as hell has never smiled the fat toad wasn't even elected. Bertie just took his pile of money and **** off leaving us in this mess. Unions are now going to fight for every penny and our country will grind to a halt, implode and become Iceland 2.

Simply put we all are over paid. We should all take pay cuts of at least 10% to bring competitiveness back. But we won't because we're all greedy, selfish cowards.

You have it easy across the water. Try living in this black hole called Ireland. Country is going down the toilet, we've bred a country of greedy selfish stubborn fools, we're finished if you ask me. We have no leadership in either Government or opposition and we're doomed. The End.

So you English quit moaning.

Sorry forgot Jonhson, he's better.

Can't think of a better English right-back bar Brown who was very good for United last year but is currently injured.

Heart says 4th, head says 5th. Which means I voted 5th.

Look with Carew in our team it's dangerous for teams to sit deep to defend against our pace because Carew can win balls launched into the box. Simply put he's an asset to our team.

Obviously not that dangerous, because we score less and gain less points when he plays?

Pointless statistic. Its about winning games not just scoring goals. If you know anything about football you'd know hiow much of an asset a big talented player like Carew can give a team. Especially at Villa Park, maybe we are better 4-5-1 away from home but I know we missed carew in the Fulham game.

Look with Carew in our team it's dangerous for teams to sit deep to defend against our pace because Carew can win balls launched into the box. Simply put he's an asset to our team.

I believe if he played for us now in his Prime he'd be banging the goals in. Bottom line is we were rubbish, utter rubbish team when he was here and he's a confidence player. The one season we had a good run he scored 23 goals. Says it all.

I love JPA. Always will.

Thats why we should bring in technology, the benefits far out weight the negatives. Which are very minimal if the ref is still the only one who stops the game.

So what happens if the video evidence is called for and its a foul but is deemed to be outside the penalty area? Games still been stopped do they use the evidence or not? To not use it makes them look daft and as soon as they do use it, it gets used everywhere because otherwise it just wouldn't be fair not to

Why would you need video evidence for red cards? They are usually pretty blatent or does that include every possible foul by every player already booked

Why will the decisions be correct with video evidence? There are still Villa fans and commentators who have watched the Barmby incident and think it wasn't a foul, they've watched it many times and still think it wasn't a foul. If they still think that wasn't a foul from video evidence what makes you think the correct decisions will be made all the time (and quickly for that matter)

I don't believe that. If you use it only for Penalty decisions, you don't have to use it for every other decision. Thats like saying goal line technology would be implemented for balls going out of play. I'm sure people would be happy to draw the line at using Video evidence only to confirm match changing decisions like penalties.

Red cards could just be for straight reds. Or all video evidence could be at the request of the Ref only. So if the ref wants to confirm his decision he asks the video ref.

Also if the decision is made wrong by video evidence or if you could make an argument for either side that's a consequence of football. But it'll certainly improve the amound of big decisions called correctly.

The other option is taking a bit from Levs idea. Captains have two chances per game to challenge the refs decision and only then is a video ref to call it. This would save Refs from giving appaling decisions against teams. Captains who know the ref has got it wrong can let the video ref decide. The limit of two challenges means captains will not waste the refs time with small incidents in case he's run out of challenges to save a big decision late in the game.

As for an argument that it'll slow down the game, people faking injury slows down games alot more. Big arguments over bad decisions will slow a game more also.