danceoftheshamen

I missed the first half as I forgot my phone & left it on display in my car, so I decided to leave the ground to walk back & get it due to the risk of having a window smashed. I knew there was virtualy zero chance of missing a Villa goal too which made the decision easier. 

As it happens my daughter told me I missed the best part of our performance & due to that I can't comment on that part of the game. I did see the last 10 mins of the 1st half and most of the second however and from what I saw it was the usual. Decent approach play ruined by Non-League level forward play. 

It is just so predictable. I even said at half time that that would likely be our best and Potter would inevitably change it whilst Gerrard would stick resulting in them likely going two up when he would then panic and send on random subs but definatley not Archer..... Guess what.

I had a very interesting chat with a colleague at work tonight up here in the East Mids. He is a big ST holding Forest fan and a very decent guy too actually. He is not the type to say anything confrontational or whatever..........anyhow you get the picture.

Well he was at the game last night and he said basically he thought they were there for the taking and gave us ample chances to get in on their goal which we repeatedly didn't take. Then he mentioned that when McGinn came off he was trying to pass the captains armband on but none of our players wanted it and were kind if waving it away with a bit of a look of "I don't want it mate" about them. From what he says it was a bit like they were almost taking the "p" about it. The Forest fans around him were apparently quite shocked by it and all talking about it.

Can anyone verify this who was there? Or maybe it was at the wrong end of the ground for our fans to see it properly?

Anyhow, and i will stress "if true" If that does not say "LOST DRESSING ROOM" in great big flashing lights then I don't know what would! 

2 hours ago, The_Steve said:

Gabriel Jesus got an identical penalty for the foul Konsa received - both the ref and VAR said no though. 

But of course, Media 6 Big London Club who are clearly getting the FA seal of approval this season, most likely as they haven't been up there for a few seasons so too good a chance to miss. They will get given everything and anything this season. As for us of course we are one of the "rest" or "other 13" clubs so we will never benefit from the Helping hand these media clubs get. The incident on Konsa was as close to identical as you could get to the one on Jesus...One rule for one, another for the other. It happens every week.

Not blaming our result on this but If we were a Media 6 club we would likely be walking away with 3 points right now had we converted the inevitable penalty.

Absolutely attrocious 

The play upto around 18 yards from the opposition goal is not too bad, as soon as it gets ast that it is Non-league level in my view. Completely amatuerish. The end product is literally appaling. 

Watkins once again constantly making the wrong choices or just woeful with his first touch. Coutinho shooting miles over & wide when a good player would have it in the top corner (He does this almost every game). Zero threat from set pieces just dog awful. 

As for McGinns diving header effort & Archers defensive header when he had a chance to score well don't even start me on those.

Has "typical Villa defeat" written all over this tonight.

We are unbeaten in 3, they are rock bottom and on a run of 6 defeats,

"Villa no-show" is nearly always the outcome in those circumstances. I am surrounded by Forest fans at work here in the East Mids, who magically appeared from nowhere when they got promoted... as it happens.

They were all saying after the defeat to Leicester "Oh well we'll win the next one against his lot" then nodding towards my direction. Sad thing is I really couldn't disagree!

If it means Gerrard gone and someone of Pochettino's ilk coming in then so be it although like most I really don't think it would impact that eventuality regardless, so I hope we win and get away from that relegation zone.

So I await Mondays encounter with a Struggling Forest side with baited breath. I am genuinely expecting nothing at all having watched us labour against the likes of Bournemouth, Palace, Leeds & Southampton. 

Meanwhile over at QPR...........!!

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

We need to get to a point or find a system where Ollie is an integral part of the attack, but not the focal point or who we rely on to finish.

He is an outstanding " forward " in terms of workrate, pace, and running defenders ragged but his finishing is too inconsistent.

Very valuable to the team but can't be solely relied on for goal IMO.

This is exactly it for me. He has the potential to be fantastic in a pair but it's finding the right partner who he'll work with. I do feel it's worth a try with Archer but you would think this has been tried in training etc? So maybe this is why Archer does not get minutes? Maybe SG just doesn't think they work together either? 

We desperately need to solve this conundrum however to have any hope of European football.

5 hours ago, one_ian_taylor said:

Given we are short of wide players, Bailey has been pretty ineffective  and Watkins is struggling to finish, does anyone think he should be played as a wide forward, with Ings/Archer as the striker?

Think the Watkins & Ings together thing has been proven to be ineffective. I would like to see him with Archer just to see if it could work.

Clearly something has to change up top for us. You just cannot keep missing chances consistently at this level. It's such a shame as his all round pressing etc is amazing and he's a real handfull....aside from the scoring bit which is lets be honest, the bit which matters.

It's not just the missed chances either, it's the poor touches & decisions which repeatedly stop a really good chance being created. Half of the reason he hasn't had more chances is because he himself messes up the situation which should create a chance either for himself or another player. How many times does he get found in a great position but then he's either on his heels when the pass comes or a yard short of reaching the cross (even though there is normally nothing wrong with the cross it's just that he didn't realise it quick enough or bust a gut to make sure he got there ahead of the defender). On other occasions he makes the wrong choice or his first touch destroys the opportunity.

Another factor I think we are all forgetting is that he is now a few years as a premier League striker & the opposition have clearly done their homework on him. His most common manouvres from which he used to get a lot of goals have now been sussed out & largely nullified by our opponents but he seems to be really struggling to find new ways to score. It's like he is constantly being shown the side he's not comfortable with by the defender and is simply not adapting.

There are so many things wrong with the key moments or actual goal scoring bit that I have to come to the conclusion that we simply need another option. 

There is Archer of course & I would like to see them as a two, surely it has to be worth a go especially in situations like we had at elland Road,

On a final note I remember Fergie at Yanitid always used to change his strikers every 2-3 seasons, for the exact reason I believe that teams at this level do indeed suss you out and nullify you. I fear this is what has happened to Ollie. World class strikers of course are a different matter entirely because they have that ability to score from so many different scenarios that they're impossible to shut down. 

Ollie needs to up his game & learn some new tricks if he is to survive at this level. 

Over to the coaching & practice field it is for him I feel but we 100% need some fresh blood in there.

Crazy to think we have a natural goal scorer sat on the bench!

To be quite honest I have always liked Keinan and knew there was a player in there once he had a run of games. He finally got that at Forest and helped them to promotion. He now looks like a very good Championship striker with potential to develop into a very good bottom half Premier League one. His finishing is coming on now, unlike Watkins who appears to be going backwards in that regard.

Was attrocious today for me, seemed afraid to take his man on & kept running back towards our half constantly then playing a pass straight to them! He did this at least 3 times! The same thing, gets the ball, turns and runs back towards our goal then passes straight to them when they then break forward turning a positive attacking position into a run backwards to defend. 

Had one good cross otherwise he was right to be yanked off.

2 minutes ago, PaulC said:

It was like a game from the 70s. Lot of tough tackling but not muvh footbaĺl played. We created enough though to win the game. Watkins was good apart from the bit which was needed, his finishing. Should have thrown Archer on. 

I Get that Archer has only had one full training session post injury but how on Earth he did not get minutes today is frankly bizarre!

Having watched that today it was clear that the reason we are so awful at scoring is 3-fold. Bailey - Attrocious aside from one cross, Coutinho - Consistently Poor finishing although unlucky with the one which hit the post but a special mention (& it sickens me to say it as I do like him) has to go to Watkins. The guys finishing is absolutely woeful, Non league standard currently even. You just cannot have that many chances at this level and consistently miss them.  I Love Ollie's play otherwise but you just cannot keep on missing chance after chance week in week out. It's killing us. Such a shame that he can't seem to improve.

21 hours ago, sheepyvillian said:

Yes, I watched the Southampton game and I was one of the few on here that actually took heart from it. When players give their all for the cause, then, it's credit where credit is due. 

I sure do miss those halcyon days though.

I agree it (Southampton) was a cause for optimism. A real line in the sand "thou shalt not pass" kind of performance which was what was required I felt personally...& better still it worked. Now we need a similar performance to grab something from elland road, which will of course be tough and we do not normally do very well coming off an international break, so it'll be interesting to see if there is any improvement on that too. 

I miss those days immensley too, the days of the old football special trains & police escorts with the c crew usually making an appearance in the oppositions end. In fact the first time I ever heard the "c crew where are you" chant was at Sundays venue Elland road!!  

That is all for another thread though of course.

Very happy with the 3 points against Saints & I just hope it's the turning of the corner finally.

On 21/09/2022 at 19:37, sheepyvillian said:

It's a crying shame the board didn't see it that way. 

I was at that game . Good old C - Crew days. 

Thats amazing sheepyvillain, I didn't go but remember reading all about it in the papers the day after. I only managed a few of the more local away games back then due to lack of funds and being at school still lol! I remember the huge let down when we lost 0-1 to Notts County in the first home game though very clearly. As well as the massive drop of in results as compared to the title winning season. 

Did you watch the Southampton game by any chance? As from the description it sounded like a similar type of game (Less the undoubted crunching tackles which were allowed back then of course lol!)

If we can somehow continue to consistently grind out points like we did against Southampton then we may put ourselves in with a shout. We did afterall grind out a point against Man City too lets not forget and only really lost to West Ham due to a fluke. A lot of games in the Prem it seems are very similar at the moment. I watched the Everton v West Ham game and that was similar too I felt. Again a 1-0 home win. 

It's our away form which clearly needs addressing however.

I liken that Southampton performance to one I witnessed many years back under a certain Ron Saunders, a few months before he infamously quit.  We were Champions at the time but had had a really poor start to the season losing at home 0-1 to a newly promoted Notts County on our opening home game as I remember (Having drawn at Spurs on opening day). The season was a real let down in the League with regular runs of losses, despite solid progress in the European cup of course which we infamously ended up winning. I seem to remember we had been on a really poor run in particular leading up to the game in question.

That was Brighton & Hove Albion away in December 1981. Coming off about 3 straight losses it was getting really worrying and I distinctly remember a very similar kind of dull, battling "dig your heels in" kind of performance on that day. It got quite a bit of criticism as I remember yet we won the game 1-0. I remember distinctly Ron Saunders saying that it was a "stop the rot" performance. Saying we simply had to dig our heels in and stop the rot and that whilst it was not a pretty game in was simply necessary to stop the run of defeats.

That game against Southampton felt exactly like that and was simply what was urgently needed in my opinion.

I agree that 4 is the minimum requirement now. 

The Leicester game worries me as that is the sort of game we tend to not arrive in.

Draw required as a minumum for me to hold any hope for Gerrard & this season. Win both and I may start to alter my opinion of him.

I was so, so impressed with him on Saturday. He played a real captains role and for me should now replace Cash as often as he's able. He was doing everything Cash doesn't do. Strong & quick in the tackle, really tough to get the ball off, intelligent & knew exactly what to do with the ball even when under immense pressure. It was dare I say it Kenny Swain-esque! That is the biggest tribute I could give him. He totally understood the tactics Gerrard wanted too and constantly turned city by hitting those long forward balls just as they were trying to swamp us like they do.

10/10

How can he possibly be dropped after that? The missing leader we need for me. 

I do like Mings, he's a character for sure & he can do things defensively the others can't. Played very well and I'm delighted for him. He does have his moments but it appears those calamatous edges are slowly being coached out of him. Delighted for him. I thought Konsa looked a lot more like his old self too against City.

You only have to look at the dodgy decisions we as a club have suffered and who they were against to realise something is badly awry. As stated earlier, if it was just poor judgement, it is not logically possible that it nearly always goes in favour of the media 6 clubs. That is the evidence of corruption right there! In a court of law I would suggest it would be taken as clear evidence.

There are though 3 different groups of matches in the Premier League which offer different outcomes from what I saw when I spent a considerable amount of time looking at this a couple of seasons ago. I still look at it but not with the same amount of depth as it takes up a heck of a lot of time. 

Group 1: Media 6 vs Media 6 club matches.

In this group of games when two media 6 clubs play each other, it appears that the dodgy decisions tend to balance out in the main, although there is a clear slant towards Man Utd (presumably due to their lowly position over the last few seasons), even in these games.

Group 2: Media 6 vs the other 13 teams.

This group of games are actually quite shocking in respect of the clear bias they highlight. An astounding & nonsensical level of the key decisions go in favour of the media 6 clubs in these games (as we saw this weekend for example). Usually the only time one of the other 13 clubs gets a decision in these games is when the game is already "out of sight" meaning it will not have a real impact on the result. It gets particularly bad in these games when the Media 6 club is struggling and often results in a sending off (or failure to send off the media 6 player), a last minute penatly or disallowed goal (as we often see in our games at Old Trafford) and as we saw in the Chelsea West Ham game. This seems to be especially so in the "run in" from Christmas onwards.

Group 3: Other 13 teams vs other 13 teams.

The decisions in these games appear to largely balance out however there does appear to be a bit of a bias towards the London teams even in these games. How many times do we get a wrong un against Palace for example? I remember the "Grealish dive" one a few years back when our good goal was disallowed and again this season when with the game at 1-1 we get a penalty awarded against us for Digne's "hand ball". This was shouted down by all & sundry of course post match. 

The issue with all this is that in the group 1 & group 3 games the results tend to even out. That means that in the majority of matches over a season it gives the appearance of "It all balances out over a season". Fans of the media 6 clubs will always argue against this too because they are effectively subconciously blind to it because their own team is amidst it, if that makes sense? They also make a lot of noise as soon as their team suffers a bad decision, as Fergie always used to do, and of course wherever you go there are loads of Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea & Arsenal fans etc so it is easy to be "shouted down". The fact is though that almost always the odd bad decision they get is indeed against another media 6 club & as stated they tend to balance out in those games. Ask them when they last got a bad decision against one of the other 13 clubs & they'll struggle.

So the real issue is the group 2 games. The Media 6 vs the rest. If you care to monitor these games as a group the corruption is abundantly clear, shockingly so I would suggest. This however gets blurred by the impact from the other two groups.

For me it's occasional incompetence but also largely corruption. If it was purely incompetence it would not nearly always favour the media 6 clubs &/or go against those clubs such as Villa, West Ham Newcastle etc who have the finanicial clout to threaten those media 6 clubs. 

I have no doubt Arsenal fans will be crying about it today after their goal was unsurprisingly disallowed at Old Trafford for a "foul". The thing is that is a typical example of when a big decision does go against a media 6 club, which nearly always is when they are playng another media 6 club. I very much doubt that would have been disallowed against them had it been the same situation at Villa Park for example.

No surprises either that Utd were the beneficiaries of yet another contentious decision, even if it was against another media 6 team. There is clearly a Liverpool / Utd bias even amongst those 6 teams. No doubt in Utd's case they want them back in the top 4 asap to keep those ££££££'s rolling in from Asia & Africa etc.

So the clear corruption is once again front & central this weekend (as it is every weekend actually but hey ho). We are yet again dished out a disgraceful decision against Man CIty. Just like we were when they re-invented the rule book after the ridiculous offside goal they allowed at theirs the other season and of course when our player was blatantly hauled back last season to prevent him going clean through for a likely 3-0 when we were 2-0 up on the last game at the emptihad. Should have been a red card but of course wasn't.

So I make that 3 in favour of them which in total has cost us 5 points over 3 games.

It's not corrupt though don't you know. Just repeated mistakes which coincidentally always happen to go to the one team.

That's without the rest of the disgraceful decisions today which went either for a media / scummy 6 team or against one of the teams pushing those top 6 teams. How convenient.

I have seen nothing whatsoever to expect anything other than relegation .....Unless we get a proper coach / manager in. Beale was clearly the brains behind Gerrard.