terrytini

Hello General

Do you agree that as we have stood still this summer and these last 2 weeks, the world is beginning to pass us by already ?

MON knew what was needed just to keep pace - do you agree that regardless of him having a different vision to the Board we need a top class Manager and significant investment - just to stand still ?

It really will all have been one heck of a waste to have hauled ourselves up to the door of Top 4 these last 4 years to go backwards even one inch now, wouldn't you agree ?

MON is not a fan of this club,he did walk out 5 days before the season started and he did buy some shit players that cost us today ,don't worry he soon have new club..

Oh no no, this line won't wash at all.

These same players were one of the top defences and top away sides in the Country last year, they are not the problem.

Lack of fight, heart, spirit, an defence awareness were the problem - something we almost never saw under Martin, whether you like it or not.

Super mac is popular is he ? MON rubb people up the wrong way did he ?

Maybe we saw why today.

Seriously, how is it possible to put in such a class performance a week ago and put in utter shite a week later with what is almost the exact same team?

As many failed to see, we just got off to a good start in that game, which lifted the adrenalin - had we gone one down who knows ?and West Ham were utterly dire- it wasn't a class performance, it was a good performance against rubbish.

Today was a rubbish performance against slightly better rubbish who scored first.

Newcastle will struggle all year, as will West Ham.

Absoultely awful, and 4 years of progress in danger of dissappearing.

I also said we would not replace MON easily despite some people think it was the best thing ever for the club that he was forced to resign

Forced to resign my arse.

Whilst I agree that is putting it too strong there is no question Randy moved the goalposts (rightly or wrongly, wrongly in my view) compared to what was discussed/broadcast in the first few years.

So considering the agreement they had was significantly altered, he was near enough (being principled) 'forced' to go, although I accept he could have stayed had he chosen.

No tactics, no winning of second ball in the ferocious manner we've become renowned for.

Worst of all, absolutely no Spirit, no guts, no determination.

Like the old days already.

Well at least we can hope all the people, fans and board, who were falling over themselves to rejoice in Mcdonalds 'youth and freedom and happiness' display against West Ham (beaten 3-1 at home by Bolton) overreact as far the other way after today - why not ?

And then maybe some sense will prevail ,we'll get a proper Manager, and 4 years of hard work might, just might, not go down the drain.

:|

No idea what you mean - all debate is by definition around 'moot points' - that what debates are !

Not quite, they are usually about hypothetical events in the future. Not ones from the past which never happened.

I'm not saying the game made him my favourite for the job, the release price of Jol did that. I'm saying it affirms my view that Mac is going to do a good job should he get it (note that this hypothetical situation is in the future).

Sorry but debates can and often are about anything, from any time. In fact, a great deal of learning can be derived from debating events both as they did happen, and as if alternative events had occurred. If one only ever considers events as they did actually occur, one is ruling out valuable insight as to other alternative courses of events.

But I can't be bothered to debate was is and isn't a debate.

3. I don't know what that means - are you using an analogy ?

I think he's using a hypothetical situation much like your 3-0 loss. The point being that we didn't lose 3-0 and that it might have had something to do with how MacDonald set the team up personnel-wise and tactically, and that they're playing for him. The result and the manner of the result suggests that your hypothetical 3-0 loss is a moot point and exists only in fantasy.

No idea what you mean - all debate is by definition around 'moot points' - that what debates are !

I'll try to put it another way - is he saying this one win convinced him , or was Mcdonald already his favourite ?

Will the vie wchange if we look tactically inept and lose 3-0 in the next game ? Will he be an even more definite if we win 1-0, or will 2-0 make it even stronger ? What if we win but play crap ? What if we play great but get stuffed ?

I am trying to illustrate the folly, as I see it, of making judgements based in miniscule evidence (at this level)

Terrytini, now answered here.

I simply asked whether he'd feel the same way had we lost.

Or to put it another way, has one win influenced you that much or was he already your favourite for the job ?

If you've watched the reserves regularly for the last few seasons then you will indeed know all about Kevin Mac, which makes it all the more puzzling as to why you are so anti his appointment.

It isn't puzzling.

Reserve Team football is a million billion miles away from the Premiership.

And football history is littered with failed internal promotions.

If we were a mid table side, fine, take the gamble, only I still wouldn't see why.

Why not get the BBest we can, instead of someone about whom we know nothing as far as Premiership is involved ?

Didn't Liverpool dominate English & European football for decades by promoting from within?

Yes, that and having oodles of cash. But they were unique, and were specifically geared up by Shankly to work that way.

Why gamble ?

How were they specifically geared up for it, the way Shankley worked? Why can't it work for us? How is it more of a gamble than appointing someone like Sven?

The boot room was specifically used as a means of training and promoting succesors from within.

So because some players said they liked him ? Jesus Fergie would never have got the United job if they'd asked the players after one game how nice was it ???

So we can only go by things that would have worked with Fergie's appointment now? OK then we'll get a manager who was successful in Jockland and took one of their clubs to a European final. Oh wait, we've done that dance.

All my best teachers at school were the ones I started off hating, and all the ones I started off loving ended up poor.

Right, I'm not sure of the relevance of this. He's not a teacher, they're not children and this isn't the "start" of their relationship.

He's coached the full squad several times in the past. They didn't meet him for the first time last monday.

Sorry if they'd said how much they liked him and we'd lost 3-0, would you still be in favour?

Irrelevant. I like the way my car looks but saying if it didn't move anywhere and was on fire would you still like your car? That's a moot point.

No the problems don't exist to the same extent the better the Manager.

I don't know what that means.

1. No, the first point was what is called an analogy, it is just one example used to illustrate what I saw as a flaw in the other guys logic.

2. See 1. above

3. I don't know what that means - are you using an analogy ?

4. In response to the guys point that the problems exist with any appointment.

OK ?

No to Koeman, would prefer MacDonald. Fresh blood needs injecting into the PL, it's stagnant with the same old names and has beens. Koeman has his name and that's all his got. Would rather give KM some time, there's no rush we are not relegation material. He might suprise he might bomb, but worth a gamble. If he is good we may have a manager who might just be with us for some time, we need some stability and consistancy. All the Koemans and Eriksons never last they just move on. Kevin MacDonald please Randy, 6 month trial see how he goes.

Again, I'd love to know why we have suddenly become so unambitious.

No rush ?? - why not ?

Not relegation material - is that the limit of our ambition at the moment ?

We can't afford this mentality - we need to be desparately trying to move on, not suddenly accepting 'transition years' and 'no rush'.

Whats got into everybody ?? :?

Im with you on this.

But i still think Macca is the one 8)

Why ? What has convinced you that out of all the Managers that might want to come here (no idea how many - not many if they think the Owner buys the players now perhaps) Mcdonald is the most likely to take us forward ?

I have seen nothing that would make me think that. Because by definition he can't have shown anything, as he hasn't done the job.

Had we lost that first game 3-0 would you still want him ?

Terry, I just replied to your concerns on the Blandy article thread. Can I ask how well you know Kevin MacDonald?

Sorry I don't know Mcdonald from Adam, as a person. I watch the reserves regularly, and his record as Coach is brilliant ,he has also a great record with the youngsters. And for all I know he is great in bed !

But none of that suggests to me we should gamble with the unknown (in terms of the PL) at this crucial time in our history, when , in my view , we either push on or go back to the old days.

Oh, and just shows how wrong many people were about MON's relationship with Petrov !!

Some are clearly more of a gamble than others. had we lost to West Ham, would you still like to take the gamble ?

The Spam game and reaction afterwards proved some things to me. It proved that our current squad like, respect and are delighted to work under MacDonald.

That is one of the major gambles out of the way. Who's to say that Jol wouldn't rile up and fall out with half of our players?

He's an abrasive word removed as far as I can see. I think he's the ideal man for the job (Jol that is) but I don't want us to spend half of the Milner cash on replacing someone who walked because they couldn't spend that half of the Milner cash.

Well I'm sorry but if one game proved all that to you I can't think of what to say !!

I think that's the trap a lot of people are falling into. What about when things go wrong, when people are left out, when the novelty wears off ? We've seen it a million times at other Clubs.

It wasn't just the game. It was Petrov (supposedly MON's love child) gushing about how the lads want him to get the job and will go and play for him. Same with Downing, as with comments from people with links to the inner workings of the club.

All of the problems you list are there with ANY managerial appointment. My point is that this is the only appointment that we KNOW will start off on excellent terms.

So because some players said they liked him ? Jesus Fergie would never have got the United job if they'd asked the players after one game how nice was it ???

All my best teachers at school were the ones I started off hating, and all the ones I started off loving ended up poor.

Sorry if they'd said how much they liked him and we'd lost 3-0, would you still be in favour?

No the problems don't exist to the same extent the better the Manager.

Why not get the BBest we can, instead of someone about whom we know nothing as far as Premiership is involved ?

The best managers are in jobs, Jol is currently in a job, he is the best we can hope for because he is or was looking to move to another club.

The other managers who we could get aren't currently working for any club.....To me that don't sound like they're the best.

Why throw money at possible managers who aren't the best when we have a perfectly fine reserve team manager now caretaker manager who knows our players better than anyone could, youth and first team.

I thought money wasn't an issue anymore ! Don't we have a billionaire owner ?

So are you really saying you don't actually want Mcdonald but are unaware of who else might be gettable? If so , fair enough, but thats not really a vote in favour then is it ?

If you've watched the reserves regularly for the last few seasons then you will indeed know all about Kevin Mac, which makes it all the more puzzling as to why you are so anti his appointment.

It isn't puzzling.

Reserve Team football is a million billion miles away from the Premiership.

And football history is littered with failed internal promotions.

If we were a mid table side, fine, take the gamble, only I still wouldn't see why.

Why not get the BBest we can, instead of someone about whom we know nothing as far as Premiership is involved ?

Didn't Liverpool dominate English & European football for decades by promoting from within?

Yes, that and having oodles of cash. But they were unique, and were specifically geared up by Shankly to work that way.

Why gamble ?

Some are clearly more of a gamble than others. had we lost to West Ham, would you still like to take the gamble ?

The Spam game and reaction afterwards proved some things to me. It proved that our current squad like, respect and are delighted to work under MacDonald.

That is one of the major gambles out of the way. Who's to say that Jol wouldn't rile up and fall out with half of our players?

He's an abrasive word removed as far as I can see. I think he's the ideal man for the job (Jol that is) but I don't want us to spend half of the Milner cash on replacing someone who walked because they couldn't spend that half of the Milner cash.

Well I'm sorry but if one game proved all that to you I can't think of what to say !!

I think that's the trap a lot of people are falling into. What about when things go wrong, when people are left out, when the novelty wears off ? We've seen it a million times at other Clubs.

He did - he has said, via the General, that the Club must exist within the financial limits of its Revenue. I could run it on that basis. As for whether he did or didn't like the players, if you are right, I find that even worse - not only has he bought Ireland you are suggesting he only supporrts his Manger if he likes whop he buys ? How much more interference would you want ? (As it happens, I don't think it has anything to do with people you happen to not like being disliked by Randy)

Randy Lerner wants to offload those players who are doing NOTHING but warming the bench up each game, they were doing it under MON even though MON asked for the money to sign them and put them on stupid wages for the type of player they are.

We don't know what went on behind closed doors, who's to say MON didn't say to Lerner, we really need this and that player they will be great for the club....Then they didn't get a chance of playing.

I'm not saying that's what happened, but seeing as Lerner agreed to buy them, he must have been told something.....Yet he watches them players picking up 50k 40k per week for sitting on the bench week in week out.

You would be an idiot not to question some of MON's buys, that would also leave you to question future buys and can he be trusted to make them.

I'm not referring to offloading players, althouhg I still think that should be up to the Mnager, not the owner. I'm referring to future investment.

As regards MON buys, all Managers buy duff players - it still doesn't justify the owner interfering in who is in and who gets sold.

If you've watched the reserves regularly for the last few seasons then you will indeed know all about Kevin Mac, which makes it all the more puzzling as to why you are so anti his appointment.

It isn't puzzling.

Reserve Team football is a million billion miles away from the Premiership.

And football history is littered with failed internal promotions.

If we were a mid table side, fine, take the gamble, only I still wouldn't see why.

Why not get the BBest we can, instead of someone about whom we know nothing as far as Premiership is involved ?

You miss my point. I personally have no problem with Ireland - I think he will be terrific for us.

I happen to beleive the Manager should buy the players. Always have done, always will. Abramovic did it at Chelsea and Muriniho left, Ashley at Newcastle and Keegan left.

I love what Randy has done so far as much as the next man, but I don't think that means throwing my beleifs out the window - I don't want an owner deciding who plays in my Team.

I think you're missing one major factor, those teams had managers in place when that happened, we have no manager, he hasn't gone behind any managers back and he never when MON was at AV.

If you know more than us please do tell, but from what I've heard MON was the one who wanted Ireland as part of the Milner deal and Lerner just went ahead with that after MON left us in the shit 5 days before the start of the season.

Well I say in the shit, he did infact leave us with a good team that a new manager to build on, but he left nonetheless 5 days before the start of the season.

Lets agree to have different views.

I think we should have appointed a Manager and let the new Manager decide. I think anything else is wrong, and much as I love Randy I think it is wrong, wrong, wrong. In the end this player is now Randys choice (unless Mcdonald is in fact our new Manager)

Being a good resrve Team Manger, which he is , is a world apart from being a good 1st Team Manager. He may, of course, be great at it - but why would we gamble ? We need to push on with the Best we can get.

Whoever we get it is a gamble, who's to say Jol will do fantastic here? Although that's many fans first choice.

Some are clearly more of a gamble than others. had we lost to West Ham, would you still like to take the gamble ? I didn't see many people posting for Mcdonald to take over fromMON prior to all this.

I am staggered by the amount of fans who seem okay with the fact that our owner has just bought a player.

(But I am equally staggered by the number who suddenly seem to want our Reserve team Coach as Manager, the number who are thanking Milner 'for all he's done', the number who seem okay with our Boards rubbishing of MON, and the lack of protests about the subtle shift in stance away from Owner Investment)

I don't think Randy Lerner is about a sign a player that is worth 10 million without asking questions if he will be good for the club.

Kevin has done fine with the reserve team and he knows them young players better than anyone at the club, that's the sort of players we need to move up to the first team squad and I think he would be the best person to do that, not spending 20 mil here and 20 mil there for a player with a bigger name.

We have a good squad without them younger players moving up, but atleast this way they will have a chance of doing so.

As for MON, he walked out on the club 5 days before kick off, we will maybe never know the real reason why, but just walking out of the club 5 days before kick off isn't the best thing he could have done.

Who said Lerner isn't going to invest? Maybe he didn't want to give MON anymore money to buy players like Sidwell, Heskey and all them others who aren't that great.

He did - he has said, via the General, that the Club must exist within the financial limits of its Revenue. I could run it on that basis. As for whether he did or didn't like the players, if you are right, I find that even worse - not only has he bought Ireland you are suggesting he only supporrts his Manger if he likes whop he buys ? How much more interference would you want ? (As it happens, I don't think it has anything to do with people you happen to not like being disliked by Randy)

I am staggered by the amount of fans who seem okay with the fact that our owner has just bought a player.

I am staggered you seem to think that is a fact. From what I can tell MON picked out Ireland in the swap, they got into the advanced stages of negotiations and then MON left. In this tricky situation Randy consulted with MacDonald and decided to go through with the deal.

Hardly Abramovichesque Schevchenko buying is it?

Unless Mcdonald is our Manager, the owner has bought Ireland

What problem do you have with SI? Isn't he good enough for you? Do you think we should have offered 50 mil to buy Gerard?

He is good value for money in my opinion, not forgetting he was Citehs player of the year just 2 seasons ago.

If Lerner has bought him then I would like to say thanks to Lerner, I think he will add something to the team we already have in place, something that we might miss with Milner going.

Milner was going anyway, like it or not....It just would have happened alot sooner.

You miss my point. I personally have no problem with Ireland - I think he will be terrific for us.

I happen to beleive the Manager should buy the players. Always have done, always will. Abramovic did it at Chelsea and Muriniho left, Ashley at Newcastle and Keegan left.

I love what Randy has done so far as much as the next man, but I don't think that means throwing my beleifs out the window - I don't want an owner deciding who plays in my Team.

I am staggered by the amount of fans who seem okay with the fact that our owner has just bought a player.

Even more so when by his own words players coming in will be in shorter supply now, with the emphasis on 'living within our income' .

Nothing should have happeneed until we had appointed a Manager, who should then have had the say on what he wanted.

(But I am equally staggered by the number who suddenly seem to want our Reserve team Coach as Manager, the number who are thanking Milner 'for all he's done', the number who seem okay with our Boards rubbishing of MON, and the lack of protests about the subtle shift in stance away from Owner Investment)

Signing SI is the clearest indication that KM will be our new manager imo. He will probably work with a DoF, and he has almost certainly encouraged Randy to go ahead with the SI component of the Milner transfer.

As for being staggered by knowledgeable fans wanting a much better coach than Mon, a much better tactician than Mon, and a much better man manager than Mon who also happens to be our reserve team coach and manager, I suggest that you suspend judgement until you get to know the man.

Finally Randy isn't moving away from owner investment, he is obviously targeting the wasted wages. These wages will be recovered by either moving certain players on, or by several of the frozen out players actually having the opportunity to earn those wages by contributing to our future success on the pitch.

It takes all sorts of fans to support a club, and I guess you and I Terry are opposite ends of the spectrum. I respect your views and can see where your concerns are coming from, but I hope that future results will show that Randy has got things right after a concerning few months.

Much as you want to make this to do with MON, it is not. As it happens I also consider myself a 'knowledgeable fan' as you rather arrogantly put it. I have watched the Reserves regularly. Whilst I disagree with your views of MON (and take issue that you appear to have suddenly become a spokesperson for people wanting Mcdonald and assumed you know their reasons) it is nothing to do with it.

Being a good resrve Team Manger, which he is , is a world apart from being a good 1st Team Manager. He may, of course, be great at it - but why would we gamble ? We need to push on with the Best we can get.

And I'm sorry, but in their own words the Club have now moved to live within income - which, whilst it may be sound finance, is definitely different to the earlier years where we thought significant investment would (and did) come from the Owner.