El Segundo

Yes the Germans can no longer defend and Neuer has gone from being one of the best in the world to being very average.

The more I watch Grealiish these days the more I see the Jack Grelaish of about 6 or 7 years ago.  We'd just got relegated, he'd just established himself in the team, and he was already regarded as our star player.  But I was among quite a few who put him in the "plenty of fart, not much shit" category.  He'd do something flash, maybe beat one man, but then lay it off sideways or backwards, or draw a fouls, but almost always the safe option.  It was as if he didn't have the confidence to take on the further dribble, or the shot or the cross. He seems to have reverted to playing like that now, well within himself,  for both City and England.  Possibly under instruction. Frustrating to see him get in positions where he might try to curl one in from 20 yards or take his man on in the box and just lay it off instead.  

For us, gradually, eventually, he overcame that and became the virtuoso we now remember, making loads of chances and scaring defenders to death. If he can rediscover that he'll be well worth £100m.     

I agree with the OP.  I would say that we've needed for a long time to be a bit more streetwise.  For example Man City are very adept at the tactical fouling to end breakaways, and players like Xhaka are very good at causing bust ups to waste a bit of time.. But I think today and recently against Leeds has been OTT.  Especially Martinez.  It will come back to bite him one day.  I guess we'll be fined too for getting 7 yellows. That said I've never seen us get 8 minutes added when teams have done it to us. 

We pretty much shit-housed our way to victory with time-wasting and tactical fouling (7 yellow cards?) and I have slightly mixed feelings about it.   Obviously great to get the three points and we've probably long needed to be more cunning and clever instead of our usual naivety but that was a bit much for me.  Martinez is going to get two yellows one of these days for his fannying around. I'd rather we could see out a game by keeping the ball and talking it to the corners than just keep giving it back to them and sit deep.

But we were solid, we stopped a very good in-form side from playing for much of the game and created a few good chances ourselves. 

The officials, the linesmen as well as  the ref,  got so many easy decisions wrong today it was quite something even by the usual PL low-bar officiating standards. 

The Kamara booking was a joke - yes he went in high but won the ball, the other player went in just as high but was late, so who has committed a foul there?  These seem to be given all the time these days where the guy who doesn't get the ball gets caught by a follow through and falls to the floor screaming gets given the foul.  It's pathetic.   

I think Digne was lucky to get away with the penalty shout though even though we've had worse ones turned down.

Credit to McGinn, not great on the ball, but he worked harder than anyone to frustrate them last 20 minutes. 

Anyhoo, 5 points off bottom three, only four points off top 6 and three away from a European place, which is a lot better than I expected just a couple of weeks ago.

Some nice moves when we go forward but once again the final ball or touch or decision lets us down.  Mings has been shaky, Digne's put in couple of great tackles, Ings has done well.  I think teams target our right side because Catty Mash is not a great defender. 

IF the ball had got to McGinn he would probably have tried to head it

I think 9 times out of 10 a foul is given there, even if a bit soft.

His goal last night showed great touch, pace and composure to (finally) lift one over the keeper.  Unfortunately, like his assist for Ramsey on Sunday, these moments are very much the exception rather than the rule.  At least for this season and last.  Too often he is let down by his poor touch, and even when he gets that right, he's let down by his lack of composure.  His ball control is generally atrocious for a top level player.

First half was indistinguishable to watching us under Gerrard, trying to play it out of defence.  Minimal risk,  stopping and turning back when in promising positions to press forward.  Thankfully United were shite as well..

Second half, we started to play some proper football, but our defence incorrectly decided defending was surplus to requirements. 

Olsen is clearly not a reliable backup keeper. Made some decent saves initially but then just fell apart.

Chambers - his first mediocre performance.  I wouldn't write him off based on that, he's been pretty good up to now.

Mings - Can be like a rock for us at times but tonight was another of his unfortunately all too frequent "calamity magnet" performances

Watkins - great touch, running and composure for the goal, then normal service was resumed on the carbon copy second one on one, where the delicate touch of a runaway axe murderer returned.  That chance should have seen us score, but ultimately led to United going down the other end and scoring instead.  

McGinn - ineffective, really out of sorts and should have been subbed at half time. Or earlier.

Emery - bit disappointed we didn't see Archer and Sanson. Guess he had to find out the hard way that Olsen is cack.

Ref - generally didn't seem to favour United too much compared to the usual Old Trafford visits,  however Maguire committed two identical fouls on Watkins and got a yellow for the first and not the second.  Consistency my arse. McTominay probably deserved a couple of yellows too.  

Pissed off to go out so meekly when United were beatable.

5 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

 

Similarly, to how McGinn has eventually been dropped, Ollie now 100 percent needs to become a bench player.

I genuinely think Keinan Davis is a better all round footballer than him.

 

Davis has a much better first touch and control.  He was slated for not scoring enough, and getting injured too often.  But when fit but he's excellent at holding the ball up and linking with other players up front.  I'd take that over a non-scoring Watkins with the technique of one-legged giraffe any day of the week. 

Losing there is no great surprise, we rarely do well there, but I didn’t think we’d get a walloping after last week’s much improved performance.  I suppose our away form has been abysmal all season though.  They are also now a very good side playing with a lot of confidence and we won’t be the last team to get a thumping there.

Difficult to pick a man of the match as they were mostly all so poor, but least bad was probably Mings, and Emi before he went off.    

Easier to pick standout losers.  

Watkins and Cash are nowhere near good enough footballers for the PLs top half, and need to be upgraded asap (mind you I would have said similar about Almiron until this season).   Young, for all his experience and recent good form, was run ragged today and made a stupid challenge for the penalty which started the rot.  Dougie started well but then seemed to give the ball away constantly. Ings, Bailey and Dendoncker disappeared some time during half time. Buendia got knocked off the ball way too easily every time.  Konsa was ok, nothing more – but should he have been marking Wilson for the headed goal?, Olsen had little chance with any of the goals.   

I think at home we’ll do ok, but Emery has some work to do to get some away performances out of this fragile lot.

Shades of Kevin McDonald's first two games way back.

When Digne comes back I hope Young replaces Cash - he's poor going forward, can;t cross and rubbish at defending. 

Did our front four even come out after half time?

Great to see we've come out all guns blazing for the second half.

11 minutes ago, birdman said:

To be fair the commentary is often diabolical man or woman. The Luiz sending off against Fulham come to mind when they were fully supporting Mitrovic pathetic and obvious play acting.

Courtney Sweetman-Kirk apparently who plays for Sheffield United.  Bloke is Ian Crick or similar.  It's on whatever channel Andy Gray and Richard ape-man ape-brain Keys are on.  Not so much bias it's more just absolute shite.  Like when Bailey played the ball about two feet off the ground, Trippier had gone diving in with his head, barely got touched, ref give a free kick.  She says it's always going to be a free-kick when your foot is that high.  Two feet off the ground?  Idiot.

Just now, MCU said:

We aren’t playing that bad considering the momentum Newcastle had coming into this game.

The commentator bias is unreal. 

If you are watching same as me there is a woman co-commentating who would be a perfect weapon for those who say there is no place for women in the men's game.  Talking utter shite about what is and isn't a free kick especially. And the bloke, whoever he is, is just as bad. 

I've been impressed with Young the last few games but that was **** moronic what he did there.  You have no right or need to have your arm up like that when going for a block.

Decent first half and unlucky to go in behind at half time.  We were playing at a much higher tempo and with more intensity than normal and it was actually not bad to watch for once.  Probably because Chelsea are not the kind of team to employ a low block with two banks of four defending the goal, so we had more space in which to play.  However when you persistently miss your chances and regularly gift goals with unforced errors that's relegation form.  Second half was a mostly a reversion to type, and the subs killed any momentum we had maintained.   

As for Martinez, I never really bought into the "top class keeper" hype.  He doesn't drop many blatant clangers like he did today but there have been numerous times I've thought he could and should have done better.

5 hours ago, Villa_Vids said:

All the clubs you list have a proper set up that has been built on multiple successful teams over the years, the head coach is a smaller cog in a much larger system. They have multiple players they can depend on, if we are being honest we have only had one player that we could depend on,  that was Jack Grealish. That is unacceptable. I am not trying to dampen excitement but we are nowhere near that level of consistency yet, even sacking Gerrard ASAP wouldn't bring us to that level immediately.  We are striving to be that sort of club, we need to be run more consistently from above, then the team and of course more consistent individual performers. But we can't be sacking managers and replacing them with different plans and ideas each time. That is unsustainable and reckless.

I also worry what culture you are projecting to the players if you sack managers over poor performances and results each season without giving them time to improve things. Gerrard overcoming this bad period to then kick us on will be game changing for the club's psychology  IMO (if he is capable of course). It is unlikely atm.

On your last paragraph, I am not denying what you are saying but maybe we have overhyped certain aspects based on a promotion bounce that has worn off as the seasons have gone on. We have only developed one player (Grealish) and have spent millions in the process on the first team. We have all the ingredients to be a successful club that is in Europe most seasons, but I  don't think we currently have the direction internally from those above Gerrard (i.e Lange & Purslow). It is why I worry about life after Gerrard.

And how does the hierarchy recapture that optimism of two season ago? I believe, to continue on this short term route, we would have to get a big name to take over (Poch?) and provide a decent level of funding to back that coach to achieve those short term aims. Is that realistic? Then what happens if that coach/manager can't get above a certain level? How long are they given? We don't have a clearly defined plan. Everton had been through a similar process, no guarantees when you start sacking coaches and give them limited time to implement ideas or learn, not withstanding bad luck with injuries/var decisions.

 

 

It seems odd that  you think it's unlikely that Gerrard is capable of "overcoming this bad period" (it's almost a year don't forget) yet you still think we should keep him. And you think  this is a rational position to take.  You worry about life after Gerrard but what about life under Gerrard ? How much worse can it get  than dire football and poor results?

As for developing only one player - We just sold Chukwuemeka for £20m, Ramsey's a first team regular, and Archer probably should be if the Manager had any balls or brains.   

The structure and plan was in place and working ok until Purslow decided to make hiring his best mate his priority instead.   Once he's gone, and perhaps Purslow too, we can get back to that plan.  

No-one is saying we should sack manager after manager for the sake of it - just that we should sack this one because he is failing.  How long the next guy gets will also be based on how he does.  That's the way it works at every club.

9 hours ago, Villa_Vids said:

No. I am not saying that. I am saying  he was appointed 11 months ago, a lot of investment pumped into his ideas and now he is on the verge of being sacked - that is a sign that the club is struggling and failing internally, which goes above and beyond the Gerrard question.

You are clearly exaggerating and catastrophizing about Gerrard's management too - "damaging the club enormously"?  That is OTT. Simply untrue. Calmly...the truth is we aren't getting winning results and the football is dour. I believe it is resolvable not fatal.

And if Gerrard is doing really bad, why are we confident that next appointment will successful? The same people who appointed Gerrard are still here and will be making the decisions.  "The will learn from their mistakes" - Oh so they can but Gerrard can't - great logic. Nice double standards too.

Sacking him is justifiable in many cases, doesn't mean your dream fantasy will play out. And then will the goal posts move again?  I suppose a new target will emerge. This is unsustainable.

You've been saying exactly that.  Yes the club (Purslow)  screwed up appointing him and have wasted a lot of time and investment in him and his "project" but you are suggesting we continue down that path and compound those failures when an 11 month trend indicates things will either stay the same or decline further rather than change for the better.  If the club is failing above and beyond Gerrard then that is a separate issue that needs addressing and will be neither directly helped nor hindered by Gerrard being sacked.

Gerrard is alienating the fanbase, our matches have stopped selling out, pretty much everyone including our own fans consider us boring and lacking in quality,  good players have been sidelined and will probably leave for less than they are worth,  and we are as low in the table as when he joined and we look like prime relegation fodder.  Just how much more damage has to be done before you think it's enormous?  What else is there to break?

We don't have to be "confident the next appointment will be successful".  We just need to be confident there is a chance he will be successful as opposed to what seems to be the guaranteed continued failure of Gerrard given the last 11 months.  The club made a mistake this time, but they were the same people who appointed Smith who got us promoted and then to 11th place.  So they have proven they can succeed as well as fail, when the choice of manager is not influenced by personal friendship.  The Board have not yet had the opportunity to learn from this mistake, and they won't until they replace Gerrard.    Gerrard has had 11 months of mistakes to learn from and hasn't.  The Board  might learn, they might not - what you are advocating is that they shouldn't even try and that is nonsensical. There is no contradictory logic or double standards in those facts.

Who says it's my fantasy?  It's what all clubs do, hire a manager, when it isn't working, try someone else, if that isn't working try someone else again.  Some get it wrong time after time, others, who are doing their jobs properly, eventually find someone who can move them forward. It's not unsustainable it's standard practice.

The table is extremely tight even after just 9 games - one win separates  16th and 7th places.  There's a mixture of promoted teams having half decent starts,  the usual strugglers and stragglers who will be down there come crunch time (Brentford, Southampton, Leeds, Forest, probably us)  and a few teams that have been very good recently but had poor, inconsistent starts - Liverpool, Wolves, West Ham and Leicester.  With most of them, with perhaps the exception of Forest and Southampton,  you can see positive signs  in the way they play.  Even Leicester are scoring goals and will probably be ok if can sort out their defence.  Wolves could have a top level manager soon.    For us to have ended up in 9th last night would have given Gerrard some breathing space and Purslow an excuse not to sack him, but it would have been a massive misconception after a dreadful start to the season full of awful performances. It may be a blessing that it didn't happen.   

The ruthlessness that saw Smith go after his poor run of five defeats was almost certainly driven by Purslow, who clearly wanted his bessie mate in.  He won't apply the same to Gerrard unless he feels his own position is under threat if he doesn't do something (and it should be). 

American sports owners are generally pretty ruthless and you would think more so in Football where you have the jeopardy of relegation and the financial shitstorm that entails.  I would hope and think NSWE are talking to alternatives for Gerrard and possible Purslow as well.   If they aren't, we could be well and truly buggered by the time the penny drops.