hooter

What date is payroll day fellas ?

3 minutes ago, WaccoeOnline said:

Point is we had to pay royally to get rid of our good players.  Imagine if Spurs took Grealish and you had to pay 30% of his wages as well, so the deal cost more than the transfer fee over time.  But you were forced to say yes to meet cash flow requirements.  That’s the sorts of deals we ended up signing.

How much will you have to pay to get rid of your terrible ones?  If McCormack is unsellable, would it be worth paying up his contract at 85% of its value in outstanding wages if payments were staged?  Cos that’s the sort of deal you might end up having to do.

 

At the risk of once again being accused of ghoul-like behaviour, it does seem like some don't quite get the **** nightmare you are potentially walking into.

It isn't a case of what you can get in a fee for a player.

It is simply an exercise in kicking the can down the road. 

Player A. Worth in normal circumstances 10 million.

Current wage 30k a week

"Buyer" knows you are **** to a stump.

"We'll give you £5 mill up front to keep your lights on, but you pay us 15k a week for the next 2 years towards his wages"

"Where do I sign ??"

Once the world knows you are short of cash, this is what happens, and what means Bruce was I assume merely doing the Dr's bidding and putting the entire squad up for sale.

There really is no other sensible explanation for what he said, given precedents.

Just now, Zatman said:

hopefully all of it

As I said on the other thread, from experience it is the hope that kills you.

I remember when we found ourselves letting Danny Mills, England full back, go to man City for a nominal fee which saw us pay a chunk of his wages for a year or two, Viduka to Boro similar.

You are left wondering how the **** it came to this, the answer, hand to mouth economics leaves no real room for negotiation.

What terms these guys leave on (if disclosed) will tell you whether the shit you are in is bollock high or nostril high.

4 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

Would like the following out:

Bunn (not good enough)

De Laet (not great, has his injuries)

Taylor (not a fan, has struggled)

Elmohamady (poor)

Whelan (old, slow and unreliable)

Jedinak (same as above but a good player, can’t be relied on through a full season)

Tshibola (absurd signing)

Gardner (poor)

McCormack (if not a cheap sale then a loan with considerable share of wages)

Hogan (has struggled here, maybe get a decent fee)

 

 

 

 

 

Out of interest, what of the stuff in brackets do you think will have escaped even the most basic of scouting networks ?

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Anyone think Jack could be holding out for takeover news?

It's the hope (however ridiculous) that kills you...

15 minutes ago, Nabby said:

The league gave Cellini a ban from ownership , need them to do the same here I think force Xia to sell up 

We will be nothing more than a shell at this rate …

They eventually banned him once he had a live (ie unspent) conviction in Italy, even then the appeals process can see it drag on for many, many months.

Unless you can find a criminal record, for a crime above a certain threshold, I don't think you'll get much help from that prick Harvey.

Just now, Vive_La_Villa said:

I told @Demitri_C to stand outside Villa Park everyday with a Xia out sign but not sure if he has done it yet. 

No commitment to the cause...

1 hour ago, tinker said:

We need him gone , question is , how can we help it happen? 

As @WaccoeOnline said, if folk on here genuinely want some advice, then it is probable that the fellas who did the really innovative legwork at Leeds might be willing to give a few hints, either of us can certainly ask.

The TimeToGoMassimo campaign became an art form, loads of viral social media stuff I don't begin to understand, they had EastEnders actors doing vids and all sorts, way beyond me.

The Bates Out one was less social media, more toe to toe "**** you, you bastard", as a 50 something that was one I felt more able to contribute to. 

Fact is it took until about 2009 for our fanbase to start to fight back, and we spent the next 7/8 years doing it. Now I'm hopeful the guy we now have is honest, whether he is good enough time will tell, but for the first time in a decade I'm willing to give him a chance.

Our experience would certainly suggest to me you fellas need to organise, and fight for your club, our support waited too long, and bates was playing much smaller numbers, the damage if you don't remove Xia will be potentially  eye-watering. 

33 minutes ago, tinker said:

We need him gone , question is , how can we help it happen? 

Well, a good first port of call is to do al you can to heap shame upon him. Our Arab crooks hated that, as did bates and Cellino, I'm sure Xia will too.

You need a group of folk willing to organise, in full knowledge they'll get shit from those who are blind to what is happening.

Then you need to raise a bit of money, get someone in your support to design some damning posters, rent the billboards around VP and have your posters up for the first few weeks, nothing at all Xia or the club can do.

Local press will be all over it, so you've free publicity.

After that the world is your oyster depending how well you can galvanise support.

Be innovative and do stuff the Birmingham mail will cover (tip them off), it'll then go notional, and social media will take it to Xia.

7 minutes ago, TheEgo said:

They are indeed, this is why he's been evasive with the truth. Them loans differ in that yes it's an agreement with a bank to give us cash, but no the onus is on a third party to pay the money back, so it's not our debt. It was future capital he borrowed against. It's all the stuff he hasn't said that we ought to be more concerned about. 

Bates was an object lesson in "creative loans", largely because most banks had no interest in lending to him.

Debt accrued to strange unidentifiable BVI-based vehicles, and latterly all manner of "pay day loans for corporate entities" companies when hocking future ticket and catering income.

GFH were if anything worse, they just loaded the club with punitive debt owed to them, if the club "owes" Xia as well as others it obviously explains why a. he won't sell yet , and b. he'll sell anything or anyone he can, at any half decent price, if he gets cash up front to keep the club running whilst it simultaneously sells other assets to "repay it's debt to him".

Once the virus is embedded in a football club, the lack of clarity and "delayed accountability" that companies house rules allow mean it is a bastard of a task to work out what damage is being done before it is too late, with an eye to our many scars I'd suggest assume the worst until he can prove you wrong, and do anything you can to unsettle and eventually remove him.

Sadly you'll find loads of your fanbase just won't or can't understand what is happening, and the battle is to get them onside so as you have strength in numbers.

11 minutes ago, WaccoeOnline said:

If I was Xia and looking to make what I could out of this shambles drawing on historic precedent, I'd put VP on the market now to get the 6 month clock ticking asap and then sell at a £10m discount to market value to whatever BVI owner fancied extracting rent for the next 20 years, whilst pocketing a £5m facilitation fee through a side deal - either openly for "consultancy" or via a payment to another BVI registered shell.    In fact, I might even set up my own BVI company to do that deal, appointing another one as an "agent" and copping a 25% fee for facilitating the sale, smuggling both cash and assets out of the club at well under value before the club gets anywhere near admin.  That way I'd have Villa Park plus £5m (or whatever) of the sale price rebated back to me before anyone could join the dots.  Might then sell the BVI holding company for a multiple of the rent income, which would bypass that difficult community asset nonsense and win me some more money.  Might even start to get close to recouping whatever minimal cash I put in to get the club in the first place.  What do you reckon @hooter?  Reckon if Xia isnt up for it, there are people we know who would be.  Has anyone got Hisham on the phone recently?  Or Stanley?

 

 

It brings me out in a cold sweat just remembering some of the details, scum the lot of them.

6 hours ago, TRO said:

when losses are incurred, it starts off with their money but ends up as the clubs debt.....The longer Xia stays the deeper we will be in it.

I think the stadium is protected Dave.....not quite sure how, but think it is.

I think VP is classed as an asset of community value, our Trust managed to get the same status for Elland Road.

If so, my understanding is it gives partial protection, it can't be sold on without "the community" (in our case I believe that means the Supporters trust) being given 6 months (I think ) to try and come up with a bid to buy it.

I don't think there is any obligation to accept that bid, even if it matches any other, but the long and short of it is you'd get plenty of notice if there was a plan to sell the ground, whereas ours just passed into the hands of an unknown BVI entity almost overnight back in the day.

11 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

Sorry you have misunderstood me. I also said being a poor custodian inevitably leads to supporters to call for change. We don't therefore force owners out they bring that upon themselves by their poor running of the football club which then leads to calls for change and that manifesting itself in the form of demonstrations etc.

I agree that supporters should try to influence change for the good of their football club.

Gotcha.

24 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Supporters just want what is best for their club. You don't have to be a fantastic owner to have Villa as a year in year out top 10 Premier league club. Much like Everton a very similar size club to us. Original beneficiaries like us of the Prem league era money who have been ever presents since, a status we lost 2 years ago.

Ellis wasn't forced out from Villa by fans. He was done and had he have stayed on much longer we were again heading for relegation under him and he knew it.

Fans in the end called for Lerners head and rightly so. We were Premier League bottom feeders for 5 years before we inevitably dropped taking just 17 points. Like Ellis he knew he was done and for at least 12 months wanted out.

Fans aren't responsible for forcing owners out. Being poor custodians inevitably leads to supporters calling for change. When that change comes though what you would hope is that the current custodian and those at the club be it Ellis/Stride or Lerner/Hollis and the relevant authorities, The Premier League/EFL, will ensure that the new owner is fit and proper to run a football club.

We more than anyone as supporters have been failed and are perhaps the last people involved with this football club responsible for this mess and long after everyone else has walked away from it we will still remain.

So your plan is to just sit it out and let Xia do as he wishes ?

When you've a proper word removed owning you, then believe me, you really do need to get your act together. I'm not talking Ellis or Bendall, but you might realise now there is a degree more urgency re this Xia fella.

You need to **** shape up, or you'll be in shit up to your eyeballs before you know it. 

Would you buy a used car from a bloke called "Luke Organ" ? Really 

15 minutes ago, paul1984 said:

It's Impossible that we are losing 60 million per year, that is more than the entire wage bill for the year in season where we recouped 15m more than we spent on transfer fees.

No level of loss is impossible when you are owned by a crook, GFH charged us over £20 million in "management fees" over less than 12 months. If you have no cash left, then the entire wage bill, and anything else you owe, are your shortfall as things stand.

31 minutes ago, TheEgo said:

I think he has a very very thin skin. Early days he was giving any journo that doubted him a #jerkalist reply and #fakenews what a clearing in the woods he looks now as he goes cap in hand asking for cash.........................but it's ok he's got loads of cash......honest!!!

Put me down for one baseball cap please and a baseball bat in case it gets messy 

 

As has been said, you need a couple of hundred folk to agree to annoy the bloke beyond belief, then it'll grow.

Billboards around the ground are a really cheap effective start, get some supporters to design biting (but legal) parodies of Xia, and post them around VP a week before the first game. Get them all over twitter, you'll be surprised how easy it is to get right under the skin of the fake billionaires....

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

No offence Leeds, but this is the behaviour of ghosts. 

You scared our lad , you've had it coming...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/122235/How-a-scared-player-ghosted-past-defenders-and-hotel-staff-to-escape-tomb-service

You scare Leeds, we'll be back. 

3 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

Because you are not (yet) 100% convinced of our pending doom, you are defending Xia, defensive yourself, part of a fan club and presumably will always be these things because if you ever have shown one opinion, you will always show that opinion without fail.

Something like that Noel. It’s great fun, whatever it is.

*impending*

we had loads of these.

They don't help. 

1 minute ago, Frobisher said:

Mate, we're drowning, proferred hand or not. Unless you've got a spare £100 million, o the other hand, then I take it all back!

As I've said in another post I'm probably being oversensitive. I guess it's just hard to take going from competing for promotion, to being on the verge of being out of business, and then having guys saying "it's going to get worse and worse and worse".

Try "only five/six/seven/eight years ago they were Champions league semi-finalists". I hear you.

But the only way we've ever shifted the bastards that owned us was eventually by some occasionally innovative positive action, largely organised online. One lot in particular were very sensitive to negative PR. 

Maybe Xia is.

You might want to find out who owns the advertising hoardings bordering the ground for instance, because Villa won't.

We had a very resourceful group of fellas crowdfunded for this...

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2016%2F02%2F15%2F19%2F313DEF9F00000578-0-image-a-65_1455563317064.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fsport%2Ffootball%2Farticle-3448294%2FLeeds-fans-project-messages-slamming-Massimo-Cellino-Elland-Road-stadium-bid-unwanted-owner-out.html&docid=QoR5WJCsbDPGQM&tbnid=HQKWIXQhJ9HZ0M%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjtkpiPt4vcAhXLAsAKHRO3BnkQMwg8KAQwBA..i&w=636&h=382&bih=837&biw=1670&q=cellino out&ved=0ahUKEwjtkpiPt4vcAhXLAsAKHRO3BnkQMwg8KAQwBA&iact=mrc&uact=8

1 minute ago, Frobisher said:

Maybe it's a bit of both 

Maybe so. But if someone is only offering one hand to drag me out of a river, I'm likely to take it. 

1 minute ago, Frobisher said:

To me at least, and I'm sure to most others, it's clear we are DEEP in the shit. How Leeds fans descending on us like carrion will help, I'm not really sure.

Well you could take one of two views I guess.

There may be ways in which our experience might help you broaden the knowledge amongst your fan base that your club is being wrecked.

Or, we might just be popping by for a cyber version of a Zinger and chips.

Your call Mr Sensitive. 

1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said:

That's the thing that caught my eye.

 

It really is straight out of the Kenneth William Bates book of lies, chapter 1.

7 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Bruce stays, we're going to have to sell players, we aren't replacing the people that have left. 

Ouch.

Converting loans to equity sounds better - I notice he's said we have no "bank loans" are we in debt to him, or his companies - where is our debt if it's not with banks, or has he cleared it?

 

We've a couple of fellas who became adept at picking apart loans until they were eventually traced to the BVI, at which point sadly they become invisible.

The fact he said "bank loans" rather than "debt" should be a mighty alarm call fellas.