Glarmorgan

Glamorgan . Do you really need a middle aged brummy to telly you stories about the land of milk and honey or would you like to save time and admit you are a complete and utter hypocrite right now ? 

 

Israel exists because the Israelites believed their imaginary deity promised it to them . All the persecution sob stories and tales of how secular some of you guys are does not change that fact . 

 

Your flag is a star of David FFS . You know which David I mean . The one from the story book that promised you guys a nice a bit of land .

 

Your nation is built upon religious bullshit . There is no denying that . 

So how can you have the audacity to say that you can't reason with the Muslims who act terribly because of the slightly different religious bullshit that they believe in ? 

 

How the hell can you not see how utterly mental that is? 

This "book" you are referring to is the reason for the location of current state of Israel. That is true - but the whole idea of Zionism was to build a home for the Jewish people who were, at the time, scattered all across Europe. Still, the people behind this idea were secular and not religious. The main idea was to preserve the Jewish people (there was a fear for the very existence of the Jewish people at that time) and that the only way to do so - is by settling the Jews in a country of their own. To emphasis this fact I will tell you of Theodore Herzl, one of the most important people in the creation of Zionism - brought up, back in 1903, the idea to establish the Jewish state in Uganda. In other words - this incredibly important person, saw the idea of the Jewish state more important than its location.

This all was a part of a huge national uprising throughout Europe - Greece trying to win independence from the Ottoman Empire, creation of a "Germany", uprising in the Balkan and so on. People wanted to live in their own countries, to be ruled by themselves and so on.

The Zionist convention voted against it, as it saw the ties of the Jewish people to their historic land.

After all, throughout the years - the Jews never tried to rebuild their homeland. Not during the middle ages, not during the renaissance. As long as there were no secular Jews - no attempts were made as it will hold the Messiah from dropping by for a cup of coffee. Only the secular Jews of Modern times brought this idea up.

I will not get into the entire history of the Zionist movement. I will also won't deny the roots of the Jewish religion in this state or its part in its existence. I will say that Israel was not created for religious reasons nor it was populated with a religious majority. Both my grandparents of my mothers side were born here, in the 1920's - my grandfather was an Atheist - as most of his friends at that time. The rest of my family, coming to Israel after the holocaust, were not religious. I think that if there was no antisemitism (in its modern form of the 1800's) and if there was no WWII - there wouldn't be a Jewish state. I guess most of the European Jews would sit still in their homelands, whether London, Berlin or Prague, enjoying a much easier life than settling in this difficult piece of land.

BTW, story book or not - the Tel Dan inscription, discovered in 1993, holds writing of the "house of David". That's history - not only religion.

What is your definition of secular Glarmorgan?

See how can people know you're a Jew if your secular? There is no Jewish race, to be a Jew (or follower of any other cult) is a matter of personal choice it carries no racial profile.

So do you follow the jewish religion? Its not clear

I do not go by the Jewish "rules". I eat non-Kosher food, I don't go the the synagogue, I don't read the bible, I don't pray, I don't go with "Jewish clothing", I have no Yarmulke, I don't "keep the Sabbath" - I ride my car, I turn on electricity and so on. I think this gives you the general idea. I am circumcised. visit youporn for evidence

I follow Jewish religion in relation to the culture and respect the past. I go with my father and brothers to the synagogue on Yom Kippur. We do not fest afterwards, though. In annual memorial day for deceased family members - we do it the Jewish way (saying "Kadish", reading a couple of lines from Psalms and so on). We conduct the Seder at Passover. This covers a lot.

Since my origins are European - I guess that if I'll walk by, you will not be able to identify me as a Jew or even as an Israeli.

So how will people know? To go a long way back - the Nazis knew. as their allies. My surname might imply this (despite not being "Goldstein" or "Cohen"). The name of my father or my grandparents will imply. If checked - it won't be a problem to find out.

If you're talking about current times - maybe if I'll got in those regions of France I won't be assaulted as they might not see my "Jewishness", but the fact remains - they hate me because this "Jew" tag. In other words - if I'll go there I'll have to make sure that there are no Hebrew letters on my clothes or my bag, I will not be able to speak in Hebrew and in General - I will have to think twice of anything I do.

Glamorgan ... You are saying that you can't reason with people who believe in religious bullshit yet your entire nation is built upon religious bullshit .

 

Can you see it yet ?

Wouldn't it be easier to say you don't know enough about Israel?

I am secular. My father is secular and so was his father. Most of my Grandmother's family (of my father's side) were secular. This did not stop the Ukrainians from slaying them as soon as Hitler's forces came to town. If I will travel through some parts of Paris - I will be assaulted for being a Jew. That simple - they don't know who I am, what are my beliefs, my history, my deeds. They'll know I am a Jew and this will be more than enough for them. The fact that I am not religious interests no one when it comes picking on someone and history showed that over and over again. Most of the Jews in Germany before WWII were secular. Many refused to be identified as Jews and replaced this identity with "German". This, as you probably know, made no difference when they were brought up on the trains. After Israel was declared - hundreds of thousands of Jews in neighboring Arab countries were assaulted. Many of them had to flee with nothing but the clothes on their skins, by their neighbors for many years. They were not Israelis. They were Iraqis, they were Syrians. But when the time came - it made no difference - they were Jews and as such - they were assaulted and in many cases - butchered.

David Ben Gurion, the first prime minister, was not religious. Neither was Haim Weitzman, the first president. We have never ever had a religious prime minister. Israel is not a religious country in the term Saudi Arabia is. I can go to a restaurant and order bacon. I can take the bacon and walk freely on the street, drinking milk at the same time. Nothing stops me from doing so.

When I am asked - and I was asked here some pages back - why should one live in a country under constant threat, I answer - because this is the only place in the world that I can I can be a person before being "a Jew". Look at the demonstration in France, or in Belgium or Turkey. Look at what the demonstrators cry for. They do not aim all their cries at Israel. They aim it at "The Jews". History taught me, and the present aided this cause, that when the time comes - no one will stand by me, to defend me from the ones attacking me for being a Jew. This is for me the reason for the state of Israel. Not the Messiah or the 3rd temple dropping from the sky.

If you want to go even further - the inception of Israel is extremely bad from the religious point of view. The most religious Jews believe the creation of Israel holds back the arrival of the Messiah. That is why you'll see vast communities of religious Jews in the US. This is why you'll see "Neturey Karta" flying to Iran to call for the extermination of the Jewish state. This is why you'll see congregations in Jerusalem whose people want nothing with the Jewish state, telling the federal government - we need nothing, we give nothing.

 

 

Hey Glamorgan . I find it strange that you ridiculed a Muslim for wanting to keep his cock intact, so he could plough on into to afterlife .

Don't you guys chop of your sons foreskins ( before the kid is old enough to decide ) based solely on the words of an Abrahamic fairytale ?

 

Despite your cynicism (which is understandable) I will try to reply seriously.

 

True - circumcision came as a result of Abraham and Itzhak. Israel, modern Israel, is a mainly a secular country. Beside the fact that circumcision is not a must, the reasons for many of the circumcisions have drastically changed throughout the years. I am secular. I eat non-Kosher, I do not "keep" the Sabbath and so on. Neither are most of my friends. My son was circumcised mainly for health reason and not to mark my bondage with God. I did this in an operation-like environment, it was done by a doctor (and not a Mohel), with anesthetics. 

 

And to make things right - I did not ridicule the one with the padded cock. This is his belief. I brought this as an example for the lack of "western world" logic in this dialog. First - because you can't explain the downside of what he's doing. He wants to die. Second - when you go to heaven and so  - you don't do this with this body. Your "soul" ascends over there and it is the one enjoying those 72 virgins. So...  and third - when you blow up a 10kg vest of explosives - padding your cock won't help much. If you think it makes a difference - don't you think those virgins will have a problem with your shattered body, rather than your fully intact cock?

 

 

 

You are doing it again dude. You are ridiculing the 72 virgins stuff when you are just as guilty of Religion based stupidity.  Cock chopping is just one example . Would you like some more ?

 

I ridicule nothing so please, stop accusing me in doing so.

There suicide bombers are being thoroughly investigated. Israel tried to understand what drives them to do such thing. Such questions rose. I am not telling you "huh - he's a moron - he thinks of virgins and padded cock and afterlife". Not at all. I say - this is what he believes in - but when you interact with a person who holds such set of beliefs - you cannot use your own perception of life since it is completely different. I don't say it "better" or " worse". I say it is different.

Nope. I was lost in translation as the term "court" has two levels in Israel.

I'll try to explain:

When it comes to the court of law, hence - judges and trials and lawyers and defendants and so on - there is only one path - the Israeli Judicial system. The judges, whether Jewish or Muslim, who attend the court of law - rule according to the laws of the State of Israel. This, obviously, applies to all sorts of "courts" - court for family matters, court of working relations and so on. You get the idea. The laws, as in any democratic country, come from the Knesset - the Israeli Parliament, where you'll find Jewish, Christian, Muslim and secular legislators.

The place of the "religious" court comes in issues such as marriage or divorce, or specific religious issues. For instance - a Muslim will not wed his wife with a Rabbi. He will most probably prefer to a  Muslim "clerk", therefore the entire marriage process (from registration to the ceremony) is under the "responsibility" of the Muslim court. The same applies for the Jewish court.  Another example - when it comes to decide whether a person is Jewish (if in doubt). This matter is being dealt by the Jewish court who has the authority to investigate. The same applies for the Muslim court, in case of a dispute. In general - other than my marriage to my lovely wife, I have never used the services of the Jewish court and hopefully - I will not have to for many years (as they are in charge of burial, which I hope neither my loved ones or I will need anytime soon...). 

Both courts are subjected to the laws of the State of Israel and to its federal Judicial system. The "regular" court cannot force the Jewish one to accept a person as a Jew, but he can order the Jewish court to have another look at things, with a different set of the Rabbis and so on, or, if you'd like - the high court can ask or hint the Parliament that they (the judges) cannot attend to a matter under the current set of laws, and unless a law will be legislated - they will have to set a verdict according to other criteria.

In any case - neither of these "mini" courts are above the state law. If Israel prohibits bigamy, a Muslim court cannot approve one, and so on.

Hope things are clearer now.

Hey Glamorgan . I find it strange that you ridiculed a Muslim for wanting to keep his cock intact, so he could plough on into to afterlife .

Don't you guys chop of your sons foreskins ( before the kid is old enough to decide ) based solely on the words of an Abrahamic fairytale ?

Despite your cynicism (which is understandable) I will try to reply seriously.

True - circumcision came as a result of Abraham and Itzhak. Israel, modern Israel, is a mainly a secular country. Beside the fact that circumcision is not a must, the reasons for many of the circumcisions have drastically changed throughout the years. I am secular. I eat non-Kosher, I do not "keep" the Sabbath and so on. Neither are most of my friends. My son was circumcised mainly for health reason and not to mark my bondage with God. I did this in an operation-like environment, it was done by a doctor (and not a Mohel), with anesthetics. 

And to make things right - I did not ridicule the one with the padded cock. This is his belief. I brought this as an example for the lack of "western world" logic in this dialog. First - because you can't explain the downside of what he's doing. He wants to die. Second - when you go to heaven and so  - you don't do this with this body. Your "soul" ascends over there and it is the one enjoying those 72 virgins. So...  and third - when you blow up a 10kg vest of explosives - padding your cock won't help much. If you think it makes a difference - don't you think those virgins will have a problem with your shattered body, rather than your fully intact cock?

I'd be lying if I said I had much interest in the answer, because I can probably guess it regardless, but I wonder if our resident Israeli might be quite so horrified to learn of Jewish law being present in English law?

Because that already is. English law allows civil disputes to be settled by any agreed third party. Lots of orthodox Jews turn to Jewish courts in cases of family and business disputes.

If another tract of people suffering from another religious affliction wish to have their own brand of tinpot religious court, what's the difference?

Both are ultimately subject English law.

I'm not surprised that that is the reaction though. Israel must surely popularise the Islamic bogeyman, or none of them would be lining up to blow apart children or drop experimental munitions on one of the most densely populated regions on earth. And they might have raised an objection at bulldozing the homes of generations of families while they were still sat upstairs.

Dear Chindie - I am not against Islam or Islamic rules. Hell, the Muslim minority in Israel enjoys his religious freedom, including their own courts which can deal with certain aspects of their lives, just as there are Jewish ones. As I repeatedly said here - you will not find one Muslim, throughout the middle east, who enjoys democracy, religious freedom and civil rights as the Arabs in Israel. Words are cheap - just make sure you back them up with facts.

Still, the nice Brit who chopped the head of the American journalist is not the problem of Israel (yet) and is not a product or byproduct of any Israeli policy or education system. It seems it is an outcome of something which is going on in the UK and no matter how hard you'll try to say "Israel" - this will not change.

The radical Islam, who brought death for hundreds of thousands throughout the world is not Israel's fault and despite your need to hit back at Israel - you are way of your mark. There are no religious leaders in Israel calling for young Muslims to make their way to Iraq and Syria. This is why there are hardly any Israeli Arabs fighting over there, unlike UK Muslims who make up 1/4 of the foreigners joining ISIS. 

BTW, you should check the death toll of children in Iraq and Kosovo. Israel did not take part in these wars. UK did. 

You look only at the action, hence - the person travelling to Syria or Iraq. Mind you this will make a huge problem when they'll return. For some reason, they never use their knowledge and experience to help the local police...

But I speak of the ideas. If I read that the laws of Shari'a are to become an integral part of the British judicial system - I am deeply disturbed. Not because it's Islam - but because it gives a foothold to a line of thought which sees women as inferior to men. In Britain. This is unbelievable!  To add to that, I see a report in the Guardian about Sainsbury (which I assume is a chain of Supermarkets) removing Kosher food just not to get someone angry (not to mention these products are not made in Israel...) or that school teachers don't teach of the holocaust as they are afraid it will offend Muslims (why would it offend anyone?!) - it all comes together to a major change which slowly allows the radical Islam to become dominant. You could see what's going on in France in recent years. If someone here has visited Malmo, Sweden, in recent times - they can also throw in their ideas of the situation. Europe is an advanced and liberal continent, having learned what's good for them over centuries of constant wars and deaths. Now, when peaceful times arrive - the Europeans should keep their progressive ideas alive instead of letting in ideas more fitting to medieval time... 

IMHO, the problem is not the threat groups such as ISIS post on the West. They have yet to fight a proper army and I genuinely think they will lose such a battle.

The problem, the real problem, is what stands behind such an organization - in other words - the ideas. The fact that citizens from the "enlightened west" see themselves fit to take part in such atrocities should raise a huge question mark over what's going on in these countries. How come a very liberal Britain produces hundreds if not thousands of people willing to do such acts. This is what should be worrying the west. There is no "Israel-Palestinian" problem in the UK, the Muslims are not harassed in any way. Why the hell some many of them come to hate the very place they live in?

And the idea of "they must be losers with no jobs" - this is a generalization you and us (in Israel) often do as it fits the way we see things. After all - why should a married man, with a steady income and a good health go such a dreadful path?

Well... they just do. They do because they were either manipulated, or are pure evil deep within, or... you can bring up any reason you see fit. I don't know the exact reason, but I will tell you than - during my army service, some 20 years back, we apprehended a Palestinian suicide bomber on his way to Tel Aviv. As he had the explosives on him - we had to undress him completely and then we saw that he had his penis wrapped in bandages. When asked for it - he told that he didn't want his penis to be damaged, so he'll be able to "use" it with the 72 virgins awaiting him up there...

So, you can try and rationalize as much as you want and bring the set of beliefs, but as soon as the 72 virgins come into the equation - this is your sign to leave rational west thinking aside and start getting used to the idea there are parts of the words where people think differently.

 

British and American intelligence services are hunting for the Islamic State jihadist who beheaded an American journalist, and have identified him as a British Muslim extremist known as "John", according the Telegraph.

 

"John" is said to be the leader of a contingent of British fighters for IS nicknamed "The Beatles", due to their British nationality, and is described as "well-educated, intelligent, but highly committed member of the extremist terror group."

It comes amid revelations that British Muslims make up a quarter of the Islamic State's contingent of European fighters, accounting for around 500 out of the 2,000 European citizens currently fighting among its ranks.

 

While dozens of other European and western nationals are also fighting for IS (formerly known as ISIS), the disproportionate number of UK citizens traveling to fight under the black banner of jihad is once again drawing questions over how radical Islam has been allowed to fester unchecked in Britain for decades.

Foreign intelligence agencies have reportedly been frustrated by MI5 and MI6's ineffectiveness in dealing with home-grown Islamist radical. In June, the CIA sent a special contingent of agents to investigate the extent of Islamic extremism in the UK, in a snub to British intelligence agencies.

Last year, it was revealed that French intelligence had targeted London-based Islamic cleric and Al Qaeda-linked terrorist Abu Hamza for a potential assassination, out of frustration with growing British indifference to Islamist terrorism. Abu Hamza was eventually extradited to the US and jailed this year for serious terrorist offenses.

Britons have carried out numerous atrocities for the group, including suicide bombings. Most recently, the executioner of America journalist James Foley spoke with a clear London or south England accent.

Alarmingly, it is not the first time a British-born jihadi has been involved in a gruesome beheading: US journalist Daniel Pearl was decapitated by in Pakistan by British-born Islamist Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh in 2002.

Professor Anthony Glees, of the Centre for Security and Intelligence Studies at the University of Buckingham, told Britain's The Independentthat political correctness had helped provide a fertile breading ground for Islamism in the UK. 

"Why are there Brits there? In my view this is because Islamist extremist ideologies have been able to be spread with relative ease in our country under the cover of 'religion', 'free speech' and 'multiculturalism'." 

"A small number of British Muslims have been brainwashed by so-called preachers... and convinced that they must kill to create a global caliphate," he added.

Muslim extremists wishing to volunteer for the Islamic State have found an easy passage to Syria by flying to Istanbul in Turkey, and from there crossing the porous southern border, according to Charlie Cooper, a researcher at the Quilliam Foundation, which monitors and combats Muslim extremism.

Cooper noted that the British man who beheaded Foley "will have committed himself entirely to furthering the aims of the Islamic state" and "completely rejected his British nationality".

ISIS fighters regularly stage public burnings of their passports in a rejection of all things non-Muslim, and the new "Islamic State" or "Caliphate" has even reportedly issued its own passports.

Shiraz Maher, a a senior researcher at the International Center for the Study of Radicalization at King's College London, said the fact that a British Islamist was chosen to behead Foley proves that UK nationals make up "some of the most vicious and vociferous fighters" in Syria and Iraq,

British Muslims are "very much at the forefront of this conflict," said Maher, who has been closely monitoring the evolution of Syrian jihadi groups.

"Unfortunately the British participation in the conflicts now raging in both Syria and Iraq has been has been one of full participation, one that has seen them at the front lines, taking part in the conflict in every way," he told The Daily Mail.

"So we have seen British fighters out there operating as suicide bombers, we have seen them operating as executioners. "Unfortunately they are amongst some of the most vicious and vociferous fighters who are out there. That is unfortunately just a part of their radicalisation."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/184272#.U_ZvnsWSxW1

 

PeterMS - you are obsessed with your hatred towards Israel. Homosexuals in Gaza are hanged, Non Sunni-Muslims in Iraq and Syria are decapitated, with entire communities massacred only for not being Sunni. The Syrian civil war cost the lives of hundreds of thousands. The Christian minority in the West Bank is slowly being driven out by their Muslim neighbors. The same happens in Egypt. Lebanon is in relative turmoil, with the Hizbulla holding a stronger army than the government - sending this army to fight in Syria, for Syria, while their leader keeps threatening Israel, without any cause whatsoever, knowing that in case of war - Israel's retaliation will bring death and suffer for Lebanon.

 

But Israel is the problem. The only state in the Middle East where the Arabs enjoy full democracy, with a total religious freedom, with a complete freedom of speech.

 

By the way - Gilad Sharon is indeed Ariel Sharon's son. He has never been elected to the parliament, has never taken a public office. He is important no more than I am. Do you wish to make a flier with my picture as well?

If you weren't so obsessed with your lying Hasbara propaganda shite, and had noticed what I've actually posted on this site over the course of many years, you would see that I have criticised extremist violence in many forms. That doesn't suit your predetermined agenda though, so you don't recognise it.

Perhaps your next move will be to accuse me of antisemitism. That seems to be part of the game the Israeli supporters online play.

By the way, this stuff about Arabs enjoying full rights in Israel is just utter bollocks. You are either deluded, or deliberately lying. Educate yourself if it's the former, or get out if it's the latter.

 

You mush be mistaking me as one of your British or Scottish counterparts who watched a couple of video clips, read some articles on the Guardian or spent some time watching Ilan Pappe's lectures, thinking they know it all.

I don't need to be educated as, in a complete contrast to you - I don't look at things from afar. I am here, right here, in this state you know nothing about. I don't need to "learn" or "study" of the rights of Arabs in Israel - I know it. I live it on daily basis. I live in a small town, 10 minutes from Ramla and Lod, both are mixed cities with Arabs and Jews. I spent years of my mature life next and in Kefar Kasem, an Arab town. Hell, I even played for their local football team in the 5th tier of Israeli football, occasionally being the only Jew player in the team. If you want to talk about the West Bank? Been there as well - have you? I saw things with my own eyes, not Ilan Pappe's. I assume that's more than you can say. This does not mean I know it all. This sure means you can't throw your empty lies at me, talking of massacres and genocides. I was there, I know the orders, I know the plans, I know what I was told and what I told to the soldiers under my command. 

You want to talk about rights? Arabs are represented in the Parliament, there are Arab judges,Araby mayors.  Arab doctors are a crucial part of the health system. They enjoy full religious freedom, Arabic is an official language in Israel (alongside Hebrew and English) and I can go on and on. There are things to improve - both from the "Jewish" side and from the "Arabic" one, but I assure you there are no other Arabs, throughout the region, who hold even half of this. 

Your empty claims towards me or towards Israel might have an effect on the common Brit who gathers information from the media. I am not a "Hasbara" person. I am a common civilian of the Israeli state, father of 3, a High Tech worker, with a huge mortgage and a nonstop effort to try and build my life here.  Due to this - I am astounded by either your ignorance of the reality here, or your unbelievably biased interpretation of it, claiming Israel to be worse than ISIS or groups of that sort.

And I don't need to bring up the Antisemitism claim. This is a case of ignorance and blind hatred. Nothing else.

PeterMS - you are obsessed with your hatred towards Israel. Homosexuals in Gaza are hanged, Non Sunni-Muslims in Iraq and Syria are decapitated, with entire communities massacred only for not being Sunni. The Syrian civil war cost the lives of hundreds of thousands. The Christian minority in the West Bank is slowly being driven out by their Muslim neighbors. The same happens in Egypt. Lebanon is in relative turmoil, with the Hizbulla holding a stronger army than the government - sending this army to fight in Syria, for Syria, while their leader keeps threatening Israel, without any cause whatsoever, knowing that in case of war - Israel's retaliation will bring death and suffer for Lebanon.

But Israel is the problem. The only state in the Middle East where the Arabs enjoy full democracy, with a total religious freedom, with a complete freedom of speech.

By the way - Gilad Sharon is indeed Ariel Sharon's son. He has never been elected to the parliament, has never taken a public office. He is important no more than I am. Do you wish to make a flier with my picture as well? 

OK. You need to understand the reality in the Israeli cities and towns in the south, close to the Gaza strip. In settlement such as Kfar Aza - they have about 15 seconds to get into the shelter after hearing the siren.

Now, lucky for Israel, we invested a lot of money into defense systems, but above that - since Saddam Hussein launched his rockets at us in 1991 - every new house built has to include a safe room. Due to this the civilian casualties are minimal. Still - every rocket launched towards Israel forces thousands to flee into the safe room within a period of time of 15 seconds. If you go a bit north, to the city of Ashqelon (population of about 120,000) and Ashdod (about 240,000) - you get two large cities which citizens have 30-60 seconds to get into the safe room. In total, I guess that around 400,000 citizens (mind you the entire population of Israel is 8 Million) is under threat or rockets.

So - yes, no deaths, thanks to the Israelis who keep their heads down, but this is not a way to live a life.

Peace agreement, truce. Means the same thing. If you have a ten year truce, you have a peace agreement.

That one really is semantics.

Have you ever heard of a peace agreement with an expiry date? Why would one want to put a deadline peace?

And to freshen your memory up - Israel and Hamas agreed on a 72 hour truce last week. The truce deadline was Friday, 8am Israel time. Hamas launched lockets at 8:01am.

In other words, by your "semantics" definition, Hamas and Israel peace agreement lasted the exact time agreed on in the first place. 1 minute after this deadline, the peace agreement became obsolete, despite no hostile acts from Israel. What will happen when the 10 year goal expires?

Beside - you're keep talking in European terms. Peace agreement and truce work differently in the middle east. For instance - Israel has a peace agreement with Egypt and Jordan but only a cease fire with Syria. You can say - well, you are not at war with any of these nations and you would be right. Still, Syria, unlike Jordan and Egypt, use, finance, train and arm terrorist groups aiming to fight Israel, such as Hizbulla.

And in regard to to the indiscriminate massacre:

 

 

Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures By Anthony ReubenHead of statistics, BBC News

 

Continue reading the main story

Mid-East crisis

• Human cost
• Under fire
• Faces from Gaza
• Children in conflict

War zones are not easy places to collect statistics.

In the Gaza conflict, most news organisations have been quoting from the office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR), which leads a group of humanitarian organisations known as the Protection Cluster.

Its recent report said that as of 6 August, 1,843 Palestinians had been killed and 66 Israelis and one Thai national since Israel launched Operation Protective Edge on 8 July.

Of those Palestinians, the status of 279 could not be identified, at least 1,354 were civilians, including 415 children and 214 women, the UN body reported.

So there were 216 members of armed groups killed, and another 725 men who were civilians. Among civilians, more than three times as many men were killed as women, while three times as many civilian men were killed as fighters.

The UN report carries a caveat with its figures: "Data on fatalities and destruction of property is consolidated by the Protection and Shelter clusters based on preliminary information, and is subject to change based on further verifications."

There has been some research suggesting that men in general are more likely to die in conflict than women, although no typical ratio is given.

Nonetheless, if the Israeli attacks have been "indiscriminate", as the UN Human Rights Council says, it is hard to work out why they have killed so many more civilian men than women.

Matthias Behnk, from OHCHR, told BBC News that the organisation would not want to speculate about why there had been so many adult male casualties, adding that because they were having to deal with a lot of casualties in a short time, they had "focused primarily on recording the casualties".

"As such, we have not at this stage conducted a detailed analysis of trends of civilian casualties, for example in relation to the reasons why different groups are affected and the types of incidents, but hope to carry this out at some point in the coming future," he said.

"However, even in the compiling of these preliminary figures, we cross-verify between different sources, not only media and several different human rights organisations, but also use other sources, including, for example, names of alleged fighters released by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and notices by armed groups in Gaza claiming someone as a member."

A number of other news organisations have been considering the civilian-to-fighter ratio.

An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."

"At the same time, women and children under 15, the least likely to be legitimate targets, were the most underrepresented, making up 71% of the population and 33% of the known-age casualties."

The list of names and ages of the dead published by al-Jazeera also found men aged between 20 and 29 to be significantly overrepresented.

The IDF say they have killed at least 253 Hamas operatives, 147 Islamic Jihad operatives, 65 "operatives of various organisations" and 603 "operatives whose affiliation is unknown", although they also stress that this is not a final number.

Spokesman Capt Eytan Buchman told BBC News that "the UN numbers being reported are, by and by large, based on the Gaza health ministry, a Hamas-run organisation".

He said that part of the reason for the discrepancy between the figures was "when militants are brought to hospitals, they are brought in civilian clothing, obscuring terrorist affiliations".

"Hamas also has given local residents directives to obscure militant identities," he said.

"It's important to bear in mind that in Operation Cast Lead [the last Israeli ground offensive in December 2008-January 2009], Hamas and Gaza-based organisations claimed that only 50 combatants were killed, admitting years later the number was between 600-700, a figure nearly identical to the figure claimed by the IDF."

In conclusion, we do not yet know for sure how many of the dead in Gaza are civilians and how many were fighters. This is in no sense the fault of the UN employees collecting the figures - their statistics are accompanied by caveats and described as preliminary and subject to revision.

But it does mean that some of the conclusions being drawn from them may be premature.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179

 

 

 

Report: Hamas offers Israel 10 conditions for a 10 year truce

Ira Glunts on July 16, 2014 86

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“Hamas” graffiti in the West Bank, 2006. (Photo: Wikipedia)

Hamas is offering Israel a 10-year truce if it accepts 10 conditions. The Jerusalem Post reports, based on an Israeli Channel 2 newscast, that Azmi Bishara announced the proposal on Al Jazeera television today.   Bishara, a former Israeli Knesset member, fled Israel in 2007 after being accused of spying for Hezbollah. He is currently living in Qatar where he is a high level government advisor.

According to Ma’ariv (Hebrew) these are the conditions:

Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.

Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.

Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.

Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.

Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.

Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.

International forces on the borders.

Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.

Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.

 

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/report-israel-conditions.html

 

Omar, as the Egyptians said - these terms fit a peace agreement and not a truce for 10 years (and maybe I should say "only 10 years").

What should be asked is - if the Hamas is so concerned to the lives of the Gazans, why would they offer a truce for 10 years and not, let's say, 25? 40? 100? They have no territorial claims (Israel withdrew all its forces from Gaza) - why wouldn't they go all the way? Hmmm...

 

 

Let's not take the focus away from the vile crimes being endlessly committed by the shock troops of the IDF, nor excuse the pitifiul hasbara lies of our Israeli mouthpiece chum.

Mass murder is being committed daily by the vile IDF, for political advantage and economic gain, including but not restricted to oil and gas off the coast of Gaza.

Thieving, murdering scum.

The recent casualties of 2000 people is hardly mass murder, sad and unnecessary, but not mass murder. Hamas allow their people to be put in the line of fire. They know they cant do shit to the jews but they still continue to fire their silly little rockets at israel. They openly admit to wanting to wipe out the nation of isreal. Hamas have had their chance to settle for peace but they dont want it. Doesnt justify the over the top actions of Israel who are as guilty as Hamas but if I want to talk about northern iraq rather then gaza then I will.

Yet we have over tens of thousands (not 2000 like gaza but over 40,000) of innocent people in northern iraq being slaughtered, beheaded, kidnapped, just because they are not a certain religion yet you say lets not take away the focus from gaza?!?!

 

 

Good post. This intense fascination with Israel at the expense of anything else going on including other atrocities around the world is quite frankly bizarre. I'm not even sure why it happens. I can only speculate that people feel very comfortable, on very safe ground to discuss Israel because the narrative of the situation is very simple, at least in their heads and situations in other countries are not.  

 

Couldn't agree more.

Still, the ISIS (or IS) issue is quite simple - they are the bad guy, regardless of who they fight.

In Syria it's much more complicated as most of the parties involved can be categorized as "bad guys". This is why no actual help is provided - no matter who will win - it'll be bad.

 

 

How much killing of innocents needs to happen before Turkey stop playing isolationism in a region they should be a stablising power in. They need to act militarily, they need a change to their current policy.

They have the largest most powerful military of all the islamic states. They also have astoundingly brave soldiers - peerless even. For the future of the region they need to end this all. Crush ISIS from the north, intervene in Syria Civil war. They are the only country who can do it and achieve the right outcome.

Armenia can attest to exactly how brave those soldiers are

 

 

South Korea exists because of the same astoundingly brave soldiers. 

 

Almost all armies have done bad and good things in the world. 

 

You can't put the Armenian genocide under such definition.

 

Omar - pardon me for not seeing the UN as an objective body. There is an automatic majority to the Arab countries and with all due respect - I have failed to see the UN dealing with proven mass killers such as Bashar el Asaad or any of the Iranian leadership, who smashed the green uprising with brute force. We had enough of the UN here, starting in 1967, when the UN peace keeping forces fled the area when asked by Gamal Nacer. Also, in regard to the children - reports show that more than 160 children died during the digging of the tunnels. I patiently await the objective report of the UN in that matter. 

 

Second - in regard to the faeces - surely you don't expect the soldier to look for a proper toilet at that time? If so - can you please ask the Hamas to supply toilet paper for this?

 

I'm guessing the family's home had a toilet unless that was thrown out the window with everything else they own.

 

Even if there was a toilet - these are war times! A soldier needs to keep under cover, even when he needs to shi*t. You weren't there, neither was I, but to think that at such a time a soldier should think of a toilet, washing his hands afterwards and drying it all with a nice soft towel?!

 

 

Gaza is one of the most densley populated areas in the world.  What open areas are you referring to?

 

Exactly. There are none. If Hamas cared to the lives of the population - it would not initiate an armed conflict with Israel. They cannot win the fight, but as long as the citizens die - they are happy.

 

Or as Ismail Hania said - the level of destruction of Gaza is a proof of Hamas victory.

 

 

Is their any prospect of Hamas evacuating children during conflict, like the Brits did before the blitz?

 

Evacuating?!?!!? Prior to the ground invasion - Israel dropped fliers asking the citizens of specific regions to evacuate (including Shajaiya). Hamas troops then came and threatened that anyone leaving his house will lose it - forcing the local folks to stay put. You can find video clips of Hamas troops hitting civilians trying to flee the area. People write here as if Hamas is some sort of a peace fairing organization fighting for freedom. This is far from the truth, unless freedom means an Islamic Caliphate on the ruins of Israel, of course (yep, they are the religious guys, fighting for Islam...).

I cannot say this any clearly - Hamas wants as many dead bodies as it can get. This is why they're shooting from within populated areas, that is why they're storing and shooting  the rockets from schools and medical facilities, that is why they restarted the fight today, despite knowing this will bring only pain to the population. Only yesterday a couple of clips were published, one from the French TV and one from the Indian TV - showing Hamas positioning and launching rockets next to UN facilities or the hotel where the reporters stay. Hamas knows that if the IDF retaliate they might hit the UN compound. Reporters existing Gaza strip twitted they were not allowed to show any Hamas casualties or report firing from within the populated areas as they feared for their lives. Think of it for a moment - of all the footage you've seen in this conflict - how many dead bodies of Hamas soldiers did you see? I reckon no more than 10 - this allows them to claim most casualties are civilians. Why? again - because it serves their target!

This is the Indian reporter: 

This is the French report:

You can see that kids are playing just next to the launching pad, as the Hamas knows that Israel monitors each launch - as soon as a rocket it launched, the launch pad is targeted and fired on. What will happen to these kids then? And do you think there is a chance they are there despite Hamas will? 

Please remember, a month ago Israel accepted a cease fire proposal which was based on "quiet for quiet", hence - we will not shoot if you will not shoot. By accepting this - not a single civilian would have died. Still, Hamas refused it, as it refused a total of 5 cease fire proposal during the last couple of weeks, as it refused a 72 hours extension for the current cease fire. They know the only chance for them to gain an advantage in the negotiations is only if civilians get killed. 

This a different state of mind than what you would expect. Israel invested millions in defensive measures. Hamas invested only in offensive ones. We cry for every soldier we lose. They send him to heaven to have a ball with the 72 virgins. We arm our tanks with anti missile system. They send people wearing explosive vests to commit suicide acts.

Omar - pardon me for not seeing the UN as an objective body. There is an automatic majority to the Arab countries and with all due respect - I have failed to see the UN dealing with proven mass killers such as Bashar el Asaad or any of the Iranian leadership, who smashed the green uprising with brute force. We had enough of the UN here, starting in 1967, when the UN peace keeping forces fled the area when asked by Gamal Nacer. Also, in regard to the children - reports show that more than 160 children died during the digging of the tunnels. I patiently await the objective report of the UN in that matter. 

Second - in regard to the faeces - surely you don't expect the soldier to look for a proper toilet at that time? If so - can you please ask the Hamas to supply toilet paper for this?

Gaza is one of the most densley populated areas in the world.  What open areas are you referring to?

Exactly. There are none. If Hamas cared to the lives of the population - it would not initiate an armed conflict with Israel. They cannot win the fight, but as long as the citizens die - they are happy.

Or as Ismail Hania said - the level of destruction of Gaza is a proof of Hamas victory.

 

I'll get to my long reply in a couple of hours. Just wanted to inform you that at the moment the 72 hours ceasefire ended, Hamas launched rockets to Israel.

So... Now what? Do you think that restarting this thing is for the best in term of the common folk in Gaza? And what should Israel do? Sit in its hand?

 

Well...

 

If rockets are being fired again then I would suggest what you have spent the last few weeks doing hasn't really worked, no great shock there. So I tell you what you shouldn't do, you shouldn't needlessly slaughter a couple of thousand civilians and waste the lives of almost a hundred of your country men when you admit yourself it is a pointless enterprise.

 

Laying waste to half of Gaza won't bring peace the sooner Israel accepts that the better in my book. Not only will it stop condemnation from some in the West but if you are right about Hammas aims then surely not giving them the oxygen of publicity through a heavy handed response is the answer or at least part of one.

 

Iron Dome as I understand it is a extremely reliable protection against most of the rockets and while I accept no Israeli should have to live in fear of the rockets neither should the residents of Gaza be forced to go hungry in a giant prison.

 

So no, Israel shouldn't sit on its hands it already has pretty sound protection against the rockets. So how about Israel acts like the responsible, civilised nation it purports to be and tries to find a better solution starting with limiting the blockage.

 

The UK didn't resolve the situation in Ireland by killing a couple of thousand Irish citizens every time the IRA hit us with a bomb and neither did we turn the country into a refugee camp.

 

The Iron Dome is effective against the rockets. It is not effective against the mortars, which are dropping on the head of the towns near by. Also - the Iron Dome is not a 100% solution, so you still need to get to the shelter as soon as a rocket it launched, regardless of Iron Dome. This means people can't leave their houses, as they have 15-90 seconds to get to the shelter. True - they don't get killed, but that's no way to live a life.

Easing the blockade is a meaningless saying. I mean - what do you expect Israel to do? Open the border to Gaza? I say over and over again, Hamas controls Gaza. Hamas is an entity calling for the extermination of Israel. Israel cannot act as if Hamas does not exist. Food and medical supplies were sent to Gaza on daily basis (!!) even before this operation took place. Dozens of truck each and every day. The cement Israel sent was used to build the tunnels, instead of helping the common folk to build their houses. Israel apprehended a fully loaded ship with long range missiles - so allowing free naval access is also a problem (you can thank Iran for that).  Israel cannot allow Gazans to come and work here, the same as it does not allow Syrians or Lebanese citizens to do so - these are countries we are at a state of war with.

As long as Hamas is in control - the only way to lift the blockade is for Hamas to accept the Quartet Principles - accepting the right of Israel to exist. While they refuse to do so, the blockade can be lifted only from the Egyptian side, through the shared border of Egypt and Gaza. Unfortunately, this won't take place as Egypt sees Hamas as a destabilizing factor who actively helped terrorists group within the Sinai peninsula to fight Egyptian army and police. 

And in regard to the "slaughter" - I guess if Hamas was to leave the populated areas and fight the IDF in the open will prevent any civilian casualties. Still, Hamas won't have this. For some strange reason - they prefer to allow the death toll to rise, as long as the leaders are well hidden in the bunker underneath Shifa hospital.

I'll get to my long reply in a couple of hours. Just wanted to inform you that at the moment the 72 hours ceasefire ended, Hamas launched rockets to Israel.

So... Now what? Do you think that restarting this thing is for the best in term of the common folk in Gaza? And what should Israel do? Sit in its hand?

As I told you - you seek western world logic when none exists. We did the same some years back, thinking we understand the way some of our neighbors think. Well, we found out that we don't. Hamas knows his claim will be better heard when the casualty rate is on the rise. So that's where they're heading to.

for all the talk of it all being Hamas' fault and the fight is only with Hamas, not the people, let's not forget this didn't start in 2007

 

let's not be distracted by 'detail', it suits all sides that these people are treated worse than factory farmed animals

I disagree - Israel has no interest for the Gazans to live as they do. As most of us see here - a person who holds a solid job, lives in a nice place and enjoying life - will most probably do what he can to keep it and not letting Hamas to fire rockets from his back yard or rooftop.

Gaza is under Hamas control - nothing prevents Hamas from investing funds into its development.