HolteExile

Tiresome.

You made a comparison with one of the countries biggest clubs and our piss-poor local rivals. There is no comparison.

Always in the shadow of their rivals.

Where did you say from now on originally? You've merely revised a wholly inaccurate statement with a new element of guesswork.

If you had actually said the above initially, I fail to see how you could possibly know. Unless you have a crystal ball in your possession.

It's just as likely that Laurel and Hardy could run the redscouse into the ground, and Everton could revert to being the biggest club in the city. It was the case before, could easily happen again. On balance, since the formation of both clubs Everton have had a far longer period of being the 'biggest.' Even if they aren't at present.

I'm no closet Evertonian, but it pisses me right off when I see ill-informed opinions about football from the post Sky generation being offered as fact. Nothing personal.

On numerous occasions?

What they finished above them, won a cup wen Liverpool didnt?

Liverpool are the most sucsesful english side are they not?

Ah, but thats not what you said originally.

Who's the more succesful side overall? Easy one, that.

Everton always in Liverpools shadow though? 'Fraid not.

BTW, Everton won the FA Cup in 1995 when Liverpool won nowt, pipped them to the league title in 1985 and 1987. And historically Everton were the far bigger of the two, before Shankley/Paisley.

Dig me out the comparitive history when SHA could ever claim similar.

While I understand the economic reason's for Everton seeking to leave Goodison I really hope that they don't and it has nothing to do with them being our rivals.

I simply feel like a lot of the soul and history of football has been lost in recent years in our game with the demolition of many of the old homes of the game. Grounds like Roker Park and The Baseball Ground while old and decrepid were symbolic of the history of our game and the communities in which the clubs grew up and Goodison is too me the same.

The new grounds made of plastic with their transiant names that will change whenever a sponser moves on built on city outskirts and industrial parks simply have no soul, no history, no character and no link to the original bedrock of the clubs.

I wouldn't care if they knocked down every stand at Villa Park and started again we long since demolished the bricks and mortar of our history but I would be devestated if we were to leave the ground itself.

As a kid trips to Goodison were among the first I looked for when the fixtures were realised and its remained a favourite all these years later, Goodison may be old it may not be in the best of states or even areas but its a real football ground. These days real football grounds in the top flight are a rare thing and will I understand why Everton want/need to move I can't help being selfish and hoping they stay put.

Agree with this, particularly in light of the loss of Highbury and Maine Road.

I often wonder why the bigger clubs don't take the approach of their European counterparts and build below ground level.

That way, if space is tight around the ground, they could still get an extra couple of thousand in. Real Madrid, Barca and Porto all have grounds set below ground level, there are prob more too.

Would be a far better option than the souless identikit bowls that are all the rage nowadays.

If the Toffees did this, and maybe bulldozed that stand that houses the away support (Gladwys?) that would give them close to 50,000. That stand might have been acceptable 20 years ago, but cramped viewing, wooden seats and obstructive pillars are no longer on.

It means that any new stand wouldn't have to go to higher than the original buildings, so the residents couldn't complain, they'd have extra seats overall + they wouldn't have to move. Job done.

Historically Everton have eclispsed Liverpool on numerous occasions.

Unlike the B-lose and us.

Care to go on?

The comparison was as I understood it, that Everton are always in Liverpools shadow. Like the urchins down the road and us.

History would indicate otherwise.

Unless you gloss over that and start from 98/99, of course.

I'm confused as to why there is any confusion on the "Everton will always be in Liverpools shadow" comment. I don't know if it's our new found hatred for Liverpool, but Everton and nowhere near the size of the club that Liverpool are, not even close.

The difference in trophies between Liverpool and Everton is probably bigger than the difference between the number of trophies between Villa and Blues to be honest. As for the 'better supported team in Liverpool', that doesn't mean that much really. Torino are by far the most supported team in Turin, Juventus have very few fans in and around the city.. does this mean Torino are abigger club than Juve, or even close?

So yeah, in my opinion, Everton will be in the shadow of Liverpool as long as I'm alive, same goes for Blues and us.

How long have you been following football?

Not a dig, a genuine question.

If you started in around 1998 sometime then I could perhaps undestand where you are coming from.

In my lifetime Everton have won league titles, European trophies and signed high profile players. On numerous occasions. Pretty certain that when they finished above Liverpool, as they did on a number of occasions in the 80's, there was no talk of always being in their shadow.

There is absolutely no comparson between SHA and Everton.

And add to the fact that they should be attractive for foreign buyers - due to their lack of rich owner and lack of huge debt. They have the same amount of fans (if not more) and have done much better than ourselves in recent years so calling them a nothing club is nothing short of ignorant.

You didn't read the article by Keigh Harris, who has advised on several takeovers, including ours?

The fact that they require huge expenditure on a stadium, and share the fan base of a "not wealthy city"witha large successful club, makes them unattractive to purchase.

Edit here - found the quote -

Everton, the other Premier League club which has instructed Harris to seek investment, is, he said openly, not as encouraging a proposition to buyers looking to increase the value of their investments.

"There is no progress at all," Harris said. "The demographics of Liverpool as a city are not hugely compelling. It is not a very wealthy city; Everton share the city with another club which arguably has been in the vanguard for the last decade and they both have a stadium to build. So the economics need a lot of looking at."

Never really thought about that, but i suppose being in the shadow of one of the worlds biggest clubs really doesn't help.

They have a couple of good players a very very good manager decent fan base but i dont like them. And i dont kiss arse because a young girl posts on here.

You could argue that getting the gates they do in a 'not wealthy city' and under the shadow of one of the media faves reflects well on them (or badly on us.)

Similar sized clubs, no question. But Liverpool is a much smaller city than Brum. We only have a porn merchants rabble from the slums as supposed competition (if you can call a club that gets 17,000 for league games competition). They have the Redshite on their doorstep.

Everton would still be a good investment.

At least for a RL type investor, in it for the long haul rather than Hicks/ Gillette type charachters looking to maximise a 'franchise' yet know **** all about football. Or rich Arabs who get bored easily.

Some of us appear to have developed Newcastle or Redscouse-esque delusions of grandeur.

League of our own? Do me a favour.

Everton have finished ahead of us for a good few seasons now, they've achieved something that we haven't done in nailing that hallowed 4th spot and they have a solid squad who have been together for years.

We could ask how many of their players would get in our 18, but they could say the same. Laursen, Barry, Young. After that, there's not much in it.

There was plenty of wailing and nashing of teeth in the summer from the blue half of Merseyside due to their delay in the transfer market. But in the final analysis, they were able to bring in a number of players, albeit late in the window. Fellini (sp) is an improvement on Carsley and Saha (when fit) is an improvement on Johnson.

They've been pretty dire so far this year, and yet they are still not a million miles of us.

They'll be up there in May, no question. They might not play total football getting there, but then that hasn't stopped them before.

Don't see Citeh being a threat, the Arabs will decide which box office name they want and Hughes will either have to accept or quit. It'll be fun watching the facre unfold mind. Portsmouth look like they're broke and there could be a serious exodus this Jan. Spurzzz will just be Spurzzz. Flattering to deceive, another infamous season of transition.

I expected Sunderland to maybe be contenders this year. Keane has brought in a better standard of player recently, and there seemed to be a more solid set-up there than at other clubs. But Keane looks like he is starting to get twitchy and I wouldn't be suprised if we see him out walking the dogs on SSN anytime soon.

Everton it is then, as our main rivals for 5th. Almost by default.

You know what you get with Everton. Organised, functional, with the odd flashes of brilliance from Arteta.

They'll be there or thereabouts.

It's probably better for them if they do stay under the radar.

Pundits have us pretty much nailed on for 5th and a good shout for 4th, but that just means we are there to be shot at.

Plus, as good as we can be in beating the likes of the Arse, we are more than capable of losing to absolute dross like Newcastle and Boro.

Injuries to key players and transfers in Jan will probably be the decisive factor between us and the Toffees as to who finishes higher.

missed this thread before but some interesting points.

I have to say I do not want to have fans to follow us simply because it is 'fashionable' to do so now.

Guess I have had to go through years where we were unfashionable and throughout these years you knew fans were at the game because of a love of Villa rather than because say Beckham was playing.

Would I want fans at Villa who last season were devouted followers of one of the sky 4 or other fashinable clubs, nope. They bring benefits in money terms but for the image I am not sure.

I kind of get your point and I have a degree of sympathy for what you say.

But using Beckham/ Manure as an example, what makes them the economic force they are?

Is it the dyed-in-the wool Reds fan born within a 5 mile radius of Salford and can trace his MUFC credentials back 4 generations?

Or is it the gloryhunter/ bandwagon jumper from Dorset, Ireland or (shamefully) Sutton Coldfield? Old Trafford on a matchday is full of out-of-town support, much of it to the chargrin of local Reds fans who see right through these imposters. But the fact is it's these type of fans that contribute to the financial wellbeing of the club and ensure they can fork out £30 million for Berbatov and pay ridiculous wages to Ronaldo.

Even those fans who don't attend matches contribute to the MUFC phenomenon with merchandise purchases et.c.

I'm not advocating that we use Manure as a business model. They are an exceptional case, and VP full of Japanese tourists might be just a bridge too far for me.

But as a club we are going to see some pretty big changes over the next few years. If the price of success, the price of filling a 50,000+ capacity venue is that we have to put up with more of those type of fans, it's a price worth paying IMO.

They're not necessarily the type of fans I'd want to sit next to, or have a pint and discuss the game with (for some reason I get an image of that Arsenal fan in The Fast Show - complete with picnic hamper), but thats a seperate issue.

Glory hunters are normally associated with the big clubs, the Man Us, Chelseas, Arsenals and Liverpools of this World...

They the only big clubs then? :winkold:

We've always had our share of fair weather fans, probably more than most in fact.

I've met Villa fans in London with absolutely no family connections in Brum, but started following us when we were succesful early 80's. I've also met Irish fans who have admitted to previously following Manure, Celtic et.c and started supporting us for no other reason than we had McGrath, Staunton, Houghton and Townsend as the heartbeat of our team.

For some it's just a casual interest, for others that was the spark that lead to a lifelong passion.

So how they came to be Villa fans is irrelevant.

We've always been a big club, capable of drawing out-of-town support.

But for us to really push on and have designs to fill a 50,000+ stadium regularly we have to find a way of tapping into this market, converting this 'interest' to bums on seats, be that on a local or national level.

Villa move into the top three, pinch yourself folks!

Nice upbeat article, but it's not as if we havent been close to the top of the table since 1935 or some such.

We were up as high as third going into November just two years ago, but then fell away badly.

So long as we're in an around the top 6 come the end of the year- and Europe doesn't take too much out of us- we'll be in a good position to push on.

It's quite obvious that we do still need to strenghthen the squad though. A forward or two in January (with hopefully the Mare going in the opposite direction) plus full back cover should see us right.

A deal of 17 mill including Finnan and I'd say yes.

However, it's not neccesarily that straightforward.

MON sent a letter to the Redscouse outlining what was required to make the deal happen.

They haven't responded.

Do we get back to them and say we'll accept any value they have put on the player instead? Thats a strange way for a business to operate.

I also have a feeling that Rafa may have got cold feet, and has decided that if it's GB or Keane, then his forward line is the more pressing concern.

If thats the case then GB has backed himself into a corner and is well and truly fcuked.

General Krulak here:

1. Not even sure how to respond to this post...a post without any intellectual rigor or basis behind it. A post that regurgitates Richard Fitzgerald's comment that has been discussed by myself no less than 20 times...a comment that was NOT the Club's position and NOT one that even falls within his remit. A post that presupposes that Randy Lerner has put a "cap" on expenses for players and for the Club. If you are looking for a COMPLETE denial, you have got it!! Randy will support MON...simple as that. Let's face it, MON is in the best position to know what he needs for his Squad (now and for the future). He has scouts that also know what he wants and are out there doing their jobs. He knows he has an owner that will support him. Neither Randy, MON or I have ever said that one year after taking over the Club we would be challenging ManU day in and day out. We are not there yet...BUT, that IS the goal and we WILL get there! BUT, we will get there in a timeframe that makes sense...and that will be lasting.

I think thats the potential danger with articles like the one posted on the frontpage. I do have some sympathy with VC's position. Exasperating is one word that could come close to describing MON's transfer dealings to date this summer.

Don't get me wrong, the situation is far from hopeless. I think most observers felt we needed around four quality additions to the side primarily in these positions: GK, RB, Midfield and RM/forward. With Carson and Reo Coker we are halfway there. The kudos from signing a goalkeeper for a British record fee (Gordon) would have been nice, but reading between the lines it looks like MON was always waiting on Carson. I have my doubts about NRC but thus far he potentially looks like the midfield general that we've been crying out for years.

Harewood? I'm not going to go there, but he along with the other two are MON's choices.

In much the same way that it's MON's choice to keep his powder dry for most of this transfer window. And thats thats the issue for me. None of this is indicative of a board not backing the manager or setting restrictive uncompetitive wage limits et.c. Much as I respect the General and FitzGerald and value their contribution to date they are not, in truth, football people. As such FitzGeralds comments about World Class signings that have generated so much milage probably miss the point. For the board it's probably a case of "Martin wants this player -ergo he must be World Class".

Thats the level of trust they have in him. I doubt for that FG and the General with the greatest will in the world know the difference between a Harewood or a Defoe/ Yakubu for example. Thats MON's domain.

On every occasion they (the board) have been questioned they have so far produced the goods, be it the Petrov signing, money during the last transfer window, the Holte Hotel... and so on.

And so the danger for me is that we as supporters appear ungrateful. I'm not singling out VillaCross in this issue. But the drip drip effect of that and similar largely unfounded criticism directed towards our board (as can be viewed in the General's thread) displays no obvious advantage to me.

Not to labour the point, and whilst there is an element of truth in what you say- like Paulo- about design by comittee, if another design polled close to 30% that in itself would be an improvement. The current effort would probably poll nowhere near close to that.

It's also a bit of a slap in the face to suggest the board messed up in seeking fan consultation and sets a precedent. The idea was well intentioned and must be applauded, the final execution poor.

Ok, so by working on the basis 'that you can't please all of the people all of the time' we should go the route of hardly pleasing anyone? Sound logic I don't think.

Of course its subjective and the various threads we had before of different designs came out would indicate as much. However, I don't think we'd have been that hard to please on this one. As good as it would have been to see a unique, new stand out design, based on an old theme (ala Arsenal and Chelsea) most Villa fans would, I feel, have gladly accepted a slight reworking of the original shield and gold lion on the old Trinity, or a return to the round badge circa 81/82 with a star ot top ala Inter and Celtic.

PauloBarnesi's post sums up what many currently feel,

and with his background dismissing the argument with 'does it matter, get a life' yada yada yada doesn't cut it I'm afraid. Not going to speak on his behalf as I'm sure he's more than capable of doing that himself, but I don't think its a case of a designer 'giving it the big one.' Like many he probably felt reluctant to criticise folllowing the many good and positive things that have eminated from the new board.

Although I don't agree entirely about the design by committee argument. Whilst I understand his viewpoint as a designer, and fan consultation is not the norm on these kind of decisions, I thought it was a smart move by the board. But where they let themselves down is as well as asking what kind of elements fans were looking at, If they were going down that route, they should have put forward maybe 4-6 designs and let fans decide the most popular. I don't think its being unkind to say the current selection wouldn't have polled very well.

Excellent excellent post.

Though I don't detest it as much as some, I'd be lying if I didn't say my heart sank on first viewing.

Does it stand out against our peers? No. (well actually yes, but for all the wrong reasons). Does it echo our glorious past. No. Finally, will we be proud of it 5/10 years from now? No.

Top Brass dropped a bollock on this one I'm afraid. Which is a shame. There is/was so much goodwill directed towards them that no one wants to be critical for criticals sake.

But it really is poor. Right concept and well intented but let down with weak colourscheme (light yellow + white on light blue ???) and frankly looks rushed and unprofessional.

Wayne Bridge

Luke Young

Boupa Diop

Dean Ashton

In that order. Agree with ianrobo about a signing one 'name' in particular though, as a statement of intent. To make the world sit up and take notice if they haven't already.

Almost hate myself for suggesting it but Mr Posh Spice fits the catergory to some extent. Although some may feel this is similar to HDE's 'vision' of signing big-named players past their best.

Truth is though, we have a weakness on the right flank, he's got something to prove and such a move would lift our profile considerably. Despite all the baggage that surrounds him, he's generally classed as a good pro and doesn't have a reputation for disrupting dressing rooms et.c.

Probably has decent memories of Villa Park, simply due to the amount of games he's played there either against us or in FA Cup Semis/Internationals.

Would he come to a club with O'Neill as a manager and seemingly on the up? Probably also wouldn't hurt that we are halfway between London and Manchester either.