Con
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Posts posted by Con
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In context it isn't though and I wouldn't say ban him, I just wouldn't expect clubs to touch him with a barge pole. This is a position that is constantly given media coverage, a position where he is in direct contact and direct view of people of many races and cultures, sexualities, male and female.
If no clubs want him then fair enough. However, I suspect he could get another job and the only way to stop him working again would be a set of rules banning sexist, homophobic, anti-Semitic and racist language from being used, which should be obeyed at all times wifout question.Vive La Villa is talking as if Mackay is some sort of victim and in a way he is, but only to his own actions, not to anybody elses actions.
"His livelihood is from football management. If he should never manage again isn't that his livelihood destroyed?"
If he genuinely didn't manage again, how is that anybody else's fault but his own?
He's not a victim right now. But you could make him a victim through excessive punishment. I think that's the point Vive La Villa is making.
If he didn't work again that won't be his fault because he almost certainly could work again.
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As I said the other day, an ex-youth player for Cardiff said it happened an awful lot when he was there from Mackay and it didn't surprise him that this had came out. Should he manage another football club again? Personally I don't think so and I don't think that is a punishment, it is just consequences for his own actions.
It's a slippery slope when you start to ban people from an occupation simply based on things they have said.
I think it's ridiculous to even suggest that.
Of course it's ridiculous.
Even if you did try to enforce that rule there will inevitably be abuse of the system. Some people who know other people - nudge, nudge, wink, wink - will be allowed to get away with saying proscribed things. Other people who don't have the same contacts will be stamped on - even for things they never said, as people could make up stuff about other people.
We should all have a better sense of humour. M&M were wrong but they've been punished enough now and we should laugh it off and expect them to do better next time.
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As I said the other day, an ex-youth player for Cardiff said it happened an awful lot when he was there from Mackay and it didn't surprise him that this had came out. Should he manage another football club again? Personally I don't think so and I don't think that is a punishment, it is just consequences for his own actions.
It's a slippery slope when you start to ban people from an occupation simply based on things they have said.
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I've not openly admitted to trolling. I think I said that sometimes one can contribute a reasonable point to a discussion in an unnecessarily lively fashion. Sometimes I get carried away and do that but it's not trolling. It's over-excitedness.
By that logic you're saying any player that didn't originate from the Premier League is probably not going to be good enough - unless they happened to start their career at Juventus, Milan, Madrid, Barca, Bayern, etc. 99% of players play for a not-top-tier club at some point.
I didn't say that at all. I'm saying it's higher risk. That is why the top four don't usually buy experienced players from outside of the top leagues.
2014 transfers in:
Arsenal
Ligue 1: 1 (25)
Premier League: 2 (29, 19)
La Liga: 1 (25)
Liverpool
Premier League: 3 (32, 26, 25)
Bundesliga: 1 (20)
Ligue 1: 1 (19)
La Liga: 1 (22)
Primeira Liga: 1 (Lazar Markovic, 20)
Manchester City.
La Liga: 1 (32)
Primeira Liga: 2 (Eliaquim Mangala, 23 and Fernando, 27)
Primera División: 1 (Bruno Zuculini, 21)
Premier League: 1 (31)
Chelsea:
La Liga: 3 (27. 25, 29)
Prva HNL: 1 (Mario Pašalić, 19)
Super Lig: 1 (Didier Drogba 36)
Manchester Utd:
Primeira Liga: 1 (Marcos Rojo, 24)
Premier League: 1 (19)
La Liga: 1 (25)
Serbian Superliga: 1 (Vanja milinkovic, 17)
Total transfers recruited from one of the big-four leagues: 17/25 = 68%
Of the non big-four transfers those who are inexperienced players: 2/8 = 25%
If you're one of the top four - Arsenal, Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea - and you want to buy a tested talent then most of the time you are going to buy from a big league - French, German, Italian, Spanish, English.
As the statistics above show they generally only buy outside those leagues to recruit younger, inexperienced players who have yet to prove themselves at the highest level.These are more risky players. Paul Scholes wants Man Utd to make a statement central defender signing from one of the big leagues. He's right. Even in Man Utd's "you win nothing with kids" season they had an experienced defence of Steve Bruce (35), Gary Pallister (30) and Denis Irwin (30). -
Since when did we start praising folk for not being pedophiles?
Since Saville, Harris et al. Better role models are needed. It's a scandal these people were pushed to high position in society.
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But what you've said is, that given the choice of Manager A (Malky) who is a racist but not a paedophile and Manager B (somebody who is imaginary) who is not a racist but is a paedophile, you'd rather Manager A.
Yes.
Which I agree with. Of course. I'd rather a racist than a paedophile.Okay.However, no managers, as far as we know fall into the category of Manager B. So you can't use this as a basis to defend Makay. Otherwise you're basically saying you can do whatever the **** you like, as long as you don't abuse children.
Manager B doesn't have to be a pedophile. Manager B could just ignore what's going on or be naive and weak on leadership on this issue. The German people weren't all Nazis, many of them were Manager Bs who stood by and did nothing.Mackay might be an aggressive racist jerk, but if Harry Redknapp is right at least we can credit him with being a family man who is not going to stand by and let some dodgy character be employed in a role that has access to children.Of course, Manager C who is a family man who is not a racist is far preferable to Manager A and Manager B.Yes, if the discussion you are having is whether we'd all prefer a racist or a paedophile, then your point is valid.
But that's totally removed from this topic, and basically irrelevant to anything as I'm not sure that situation exists in Football.
That is the discussion which was prompted by the Harry Redknapp quote. Now we can bring a Speedy end to it.
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Yes, I understand that.
But surely not even you can believe what you've written there.
You've invented a hypothetical comparison and somehow used it to defend Malky because he's not a paedophile.
So weird.
Taking my cue from what Redknapp said about rapists and pedophiles.
Whilst football in the UK has not had much in the way of sexual abuse scandal it is not an impossible hypothetical.
Recent scandals in America have shown sexual abuse in sport is not something we should be complacent against.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/penn-state-sexual-abuse-scandal
This in no way justifies what Mackay did but the point of raising it is to put what he did in perspective. He is a "family man" and a good guy other than being a racist.
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Redknapp's view is fair enough, we do need to get some perspective. How often are child abusers outed in the game?
“He’s not murdered anyone, he’s not a rapist or a paedophile. He’s made a big mistake. It shouldn’t finish his life or his football career. It’s going to take time for him to get back into the game. People get second chances in life who have committed bad crimes. Why shouldn’t he? He’s made a mistake but we’re not going to hang him for it, are we? Given time his life has to go on. Hopefully he’ll learn from the silly mistakes he’s made.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/22/harry-redknapp-malky-mackay
If you have a choice between a manager that's a racist but won't let any child abusers anywhere near the club and a manager that's not racist but turns a blind eye to things, I know what manager I'd rather have in the game. At least we can openly laugh at the racist for being stupid.
What, in the blue hell, are you talking about?
'Arry's quote.
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Redknapp's view is fair enough, we do need to get some perspective. How often are child abusers outed in the game?
“He’s not murdered anyone, he’s not a rapist or a paedophile. He’s made a big mistake. It shouldn’t finish his life or his football career. It’s going to take time for him to get back into the game. People get second chances in life who have committed bad crimes. Why shouldn’t he? He’s made a mistake but we’re not going to hang him for it, are we? Given time his life has to go on. Hopefully he’ll learn from the silly mistakes he’s made.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/22/harry-redknapp-malky-mackay
If you have a choice between a manager that's a racist but won't let any child abusers anywhere near the club and a manager that's not racist but turns a blind eye to things, I know what manager I'd rather have in the game. At least we can openly laugh at the racist for being stupid.
'Arry has offered his view:
"He's not a rapist or a paedophile"
Well that's ok then. Case closed. Cheers 'Arry.
Neither was Hitler!
5 pages until we got to Hitler, not bad.
Some of his Nazi subordinates were. The Nazis weren't just racist.
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No, we cannot comment until he has played, but it's reasonable to suggest based on his previous club, league and price tag alone that Rojos probably won't be the central defender that every Champions League club shouldn't have missed.
Also, if we didn't make comments there would be nothing to talk about. I challenge you to say something more interesting about Rojos!
So C.Ronaldo has been pretty shit then hasn't he?
Thiago Silva (who failed at Porto) and I've seen you say is one of the best CB's in the world, shouldn't have been bought to Milan as a 25 year old from Fluminese because he came from the Brazilian league?
No Con.
We're discussing whether the performance of a central defender in another league translates to performance in the Premier League. Ronaldo is not a central defender and Thiago Silva has yet to play in the Premier League so both are irrelevant to this discussion.
Rojos was a central defender in a league that plays a less physical style of football to the Premier League. That is why compared to a player bought from the top of a more physical league such as the German league (e.g. Hummells from Borussia Dortmund) there is a higher risk of failure.
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Why didn't you like Linekers comment?
After Senderos's dominating performance during the game it was uncharitable of Lineker to leave us with the impression he is submissive and weak, which he generated by implying an over-intimacy with Vlaar.
Get outa here!
If Lineker had said they were as solid as a gay couple ... I'd have had no problem with that. It was the implied level of intimacy in the relationship, nibbling or whatever, that was totally taking the piss. No place for ear nibbling in the centre of defence. Typical of pundits who want to keep Villa down.
I'd say that your assumption that homosexuality equates to weakness or submissiveness is far worse than anything that Lineker may have suggested.
Except I didn't say that.
the impression he is submissive and weak, which he generated by implying an over-intimacy with Vlaar.
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Why didn't you like Linekers comment?
After Senderos's dominating performance during the game it was uncharitable of Lineker to leave us with the impression he is submissive and weak, which he generated by implying an over-intimacy with Vlaar.
Get outa here!
If Lineker had said they were as solid as a gay couple ... I'd have had no problem with that. It was the implied level of intimacy in the relationship, nibbling or whatever, that was totally taking the piss. No place for ear nibbling in the centre of defence. Typical of pundits who want to keep Villa down.
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First you say you can not comment because you have never seen Rojo play at CB but then you go and make judgments on him and compare him to other players. Of all the forums I have been on, Con you are in the running for the worst poster I have ever seen.
No, we cannot comment until he has played, but it's reasonable to suggest based on his previous club, league and price tag alone that Rojos probably won't be the central defender that every Champions League club shouldn't have missed.
Also, if we didn't make comments there would be nothing to talk about. I challenge you to say something more interesting about Rojos!
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Why didn't you like Linekers comment?After Senderos's dominating performance during the game it was uncharitable of Lineker to leave us with the impression he is submissive and weak, which he generated by implying an over-intimacy with Vlaar.
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Football is a forgiving industry. Let's be honest: most of us would be hypocrites to say we would not have let them have the sexism and maybe the homophobia - what about Lineker's comment on MOTD about Senderous nibbling Vlaar's neck? I didn't like it but I and nobody else has called for him to be sacked so the reality is nobody really cares.
There simply aren't many Jews in football and it was an agent, so they might have been allowed that one too because it was an agent.
It's the brazen racism and lots of it that is really shocking and annoying and makes you scratch your head. Do they think it is a sport for white people? How can they expect to run a successful team picking just white Europeans? It shouldn't need to be said that Toure, Kompany were crucial in helping Man City win the Premier League last year. David Silva is about half-Japanese. Their attitudes to race are bad for the sport.
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Balotelli is probably my favouritest football player of all time. great to have him back in the Premier League.
Liverpool fans will be getting ready for another season of defending the indefensible.
this year Mario with push over a referee and to avoid a 10 game ban they will say the referee stumbled over his own feet and tripped over backwards.
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A player like Hummels could get guaranteed first team football and probable team captaincy on an astronomical wage and only miss out on Champions League for one year if he helps lead Man Utd into the top four.
Do you think Hummels could become the best German CD in Premier League history?
He's be up there with the Brazilian Alex, possibly better. Would be good enough to get Man Utd into the top four. That is why you pay the £100 million impossible-to-turn-down transfer fee and £70 million to Hummels for a 50-year-contract. Man Utd have the money to finance a deal like this. What's stopping them? Once they have Hummels they can build because it will be a lot easier to convince other world class players on Scholes's list, like Khedira, to skip a year of Champions League football.
Are you saying that Alex was one of the best defenders in PL history?
You are saying a club 100s millions of pounds in debt should be spunking £100m on a centre back and handing out £70m contracts with no CL revenue and what is looking likely for next season too.
I tell you want I think they should offer an even £100m for Khedira, Di Maria and Busquets and forget the £70m contracts, they should make it an even £100m contracts for each.
It will just look tidier on the balance sheet.
It's only money.
No, the conversation was over who was the best South American central defender in Premier League history. This is Alex .
I agree the figures I'm quoting are silly money but that is the kind of money Man Utd need to spend if they have any ambition for the top four.
You say they are £100s millions in debt but haven't they just signed a kit sponsorship deal with Addidas worth £750 million? Why can't they spend some of that war chest?
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A player like Hummels could get guaranteed first team football and probable team captaincy on an astronomical wage and only miss out on Champions League for one year if he helps lead Man Utd into the top four.
Do you think Hummels could become the best German CD in Premier League history?
He's be up there with the Brazilian Alex, possibly better. Would be good enough to get Man Utd into the top four. That is why you pay the £100 million impossible-to-turn-down transfer fee and £70 million to Hummels for a 50-year-contract. Man Utd have the money to finance a deal like this. What's stopping them? Once they have Hummels they can build because it will be a lot easier to convince other world class players on Scholes's list, like Khedira, to skip a year of Champions League football.
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A player like Hummels could get guaranteed first team football and probable team captaincy on an astronomical wage and only miss out on Champions League for one year if he helps lead Man Utd into the top four.
You start with an epic central defender and build forwards. It should not be too hard to convince a 25-year-old superstar with his best years ahead of him this football club doesn't have the money to support an ambitious rebuild.
Hummels should be the keystone and he's not yet at a Real Madrid or Barcelona so Man Utd should act now. Offer him £250,000 a week and offer Dortmund £100 million.
Edit for PieFacE: a few months ago I was saying this, however I my outlook improved after Van Gaal took over, and on consideration of some of their upcoming youth like Wilson and Januzaj - however, return to top four was always on condition they sorted out the defence which Rojos surely doesn't do.
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Why is it unrealistic?
Because Man Utd don't have the money or because Real Madrid won't sell? If Man Utd are the "biggest club in world football" then the Paul Scholes list would just be for starters. They have to spend some of that £750 million kit deal on a better CD than Flojo. If the transfer fee for Varene was spend £75 million, I'd do it.
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“What do they need? Five players. Five proper players who can hit the ground running and turn round a situation that looks serious.”
Scholes listed his quintet: Xabi Alonso, Sami Khedira, Raphael Varane, Angel Di Maria and Mats Hummels.
With four of those currently at Real Madrid, it would certainly be a rather large cheque for the current European champions.
An unlikely prospect too but, according to Scholes, these are the sort of players United desperately need.
Scholes talks sense. These are the world class players they need. Let's just consider the CD. Varane and Hummels are superb. Man Utd have been able to sign (who?) Rojos.
Man Utd have too many clowns and nearly-men and their plastic fans are melting away.
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I'm very doubtful Vlaar would go to Southampton. Big hassle for a club that is not much better and he wouldn't even be the team captain. Obviously he'd go to Man Utd if Van Gaal wanted him. That must be the reason why we are holding back on contract talks. I think Vlaar is better than anything Utd have got right now. Main flaw is he is injury prone, with us he has an annual calf injury around Christmas time.
Depends what they offer him compared to us. If he doesn't get his big move then it could be his last chance to earn a few extra million.
Weren't we going to give him a big pay rise with his new contract?
How badly do Southampton want an injury prone player?
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Con that was my point. It's not that they make bad defenders it's just that not many have come to the UK.
You are right there will be some effect like that. I don't think it is the only effect.
We should consider that maybe they've been considered not very good - deliberately avoided for some tactical reason, or for the reason they are simply not very good.
Notice that Argentina and Brazil are geographically pretty much the same place compared to the UK: but Argentina have sent far more decent/dodgy defenders to the Premier League than Brazil. Argentina also has a much smaller population than Brazil. Calls for an explanation! The disproportionate numbers of reasonably successful Argentine defenders is a deliberate bias against the Brazilian style toward Argentinian style which is slightly more European.
Likewise, the number of defenders being sent from Argentina compared to those sent from France may be reduced due to manager's deliberate choice against the more South American style represented by Argentina in favour of the more European French style.
What style is Rojos an Argentinian who was brought from a Portuguese football club? We'll have to find out.
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Alex at Chelsea was the best South American central defender the Premier League's had. Let's clarify the confused situation with a list, that also includes a few others:
Alex
Demichellis
Collocini
Medel
Luiz
Jara
Where is Rojos going to fit in on that list? I suspect somewhere between Demichellis and Luiz. However, it would be a good idea to see him play before making too solid a judgement... obviously.
Con that's probably because it's only in recent years that a lot of SA footballers are coming to England. There has been many top SA defenders but most of them have played in Spain or Italy.
The possible criticism of the South American defenders in the Premier League might be that they are talented bunch of ball-players and even the likes of Sideshow Luiz are a bit power-puff. The surprising thing is there has only been one Alex from Brazil whereas France have sent over Desailly, Distin, Gallas, Koscielny and even Denmark can name Agger and Laursen who are comparable with Alex.
If you look at the list of Brazilian imports the number of defenders is disproportionately low and I can't name another CD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_Premier_League_players#Brazil
OTOH Rojo is Argentinian and they've had more success in this position in the Premier League than the other SAs.
Malky Mackay and Iain Moody
in Other Football
Posted · Edited by Con
It's a clash of working class and middle class cultures.
A lot of the talent in football is from what used to be called the working class. They say things that you would never say holding a cup of tea and a scone.