conorm

It's a slow process but yes you can build something. 

 

Look at Dortmund. In 07/08 when their similar rebuilding began they brought in the likes of Hummels, Blaszczykowski and Mladen Petric for a combined £3m. They have since sold players such as:

 

Pienaar, Petric, Lucas Barrios, Nuri Sahin, Kagawa, Gotze, Lewandowski (next summer)

 

and still built something.

 

Westwood & Lowton £1.8m.

Bennett £2m

Benteke £5m

Vlaar £3m

KEA £3m

Bacuna £800k

Tonev £2.5m

Luna £1.5m

Helenius £1.2m

Guzan £Free

Okore £4m

Bowery £500k

Sylla £2m?

Steer - Tribunal.. £500k?

Total: £26m outlay tops?

 

Selling Benteke for £26m+ Would have essentially funded a rebuilding of our squad. If we really wanted to (we wouldnt), we could fill a Starting 11 + some of the bench with these players.

 

                 Guzan

Lowton   Vlaar   Okore   Luna

       Westwood  Sylla

Bowery     Bacuna    Tonev

                Helenius

 

Steer, Bennett, KEA.

 

So yeah, I think we can build something. We already have the foundation for something before even adding in our own youth prospects. Before we add in any more additions that could come from the money we get (and/or save in wages) from Bent, Given, Ireland, Bannan and Delfouneso.

 

If we can keep finding gems, selling them on if need be, and using that money to improve the squad, that is building something.

 

As I said before, selling Benteke for £25-30m will fund this summer, January and next summers signings. If it turns out next summer or the summer after that Lowton or Okore are £20m defenders, then selling them will fund the next round. 

 

If in 3 years time Jordan Graham is a £20m winger, he will fund the next round..If it's Grealish at £25m the year after then the Academy has been funded for years to come.

 

We can't compete unless we gradually build the quality of our team and the quality of our academy and eventually it clicks. Thats the situation we and any other club outside of the current top 6 find themselves in. Until then or a oil-rich sheikh buys us..

 

We go again..

 

Great post. I'd agree 100% but think the last paragraph needs emphasising. I think there is a misconception that people here are happy to buy cheap and sell on at a profit ad infinitum - the "1 step forward, 2 steps back" viewpoint. The key step is reinvesting to make slight overall improvements so that we gradually improve our standing, to the point where we become a more and more attractive proposition for quality players in our own right. I liken it, crudely, to getting on the property ladder and gradually acruing capital which allows you to make steps up to bigger and better homes. It doesn't happen overnight - but it is a pretty standard way of getting where you want to go.

Much like CVByrne, it's the Irish connection in and around Italia 90 - Staunton, Houghton, Townsend and, of course, McGrath.

 

Based in London/Surrey now though and, yeh, it's a rare thing to find anyone even vaguely interested in Villa.

 

 

Nestle, Family Guy, Apple, Toyota? I don't have a clue what you are on about. 

 

If Dafabet were by far the best offer I understand it but it's disappointing we can't: 

 

- yes, get a bigger brand (I have literally never heard of this company and I gamble a fair bit) 

 

- get a sponsor with a local connection 

 

- get a sponsor we can form a long-term association with 

 

- get a sponsor that isn't dedicated to screwing people out of their money

 

Every company does this... 

 

 

Exactly. Look hard enough, and every sponsor has something to hate about it.

 

So where do we draw the line? As a family club, an easy rule of thumb is Helen Lovejoy's "won't somebody please think of the children!".

 

That is, if a child were engaged in the activity promoted by your sponsor - would it be grounds for prosecution?

 

Can a child legally engage with a prostitute?

Can a child legally drink alcohol?

Can a child legally smoke cigarettes?

Can a child legally walk into a Casino or place a bet?

 

As such, you could do better than put a porn, alcohol, tobacco or gambling site on the front of your shirt.

 

And that is the only point most of us are trying to get across. While I'm certain it makes good financial sense, it's personally disappointing that Villa signed DaftBet as their sponsor compared to a  more "family" or "mainstream" business.

 

Moral high ground? Nope. Do as you will. You don't have a problem with DaftBet? Good for you.

 

As for me, I will show my displeasure by not buying the shirt.

 

A sensible post and I agree that it is a personal matter as to whether Dafabet or similar offends. I couldn't care less (in that I care about the argument but Dafabet specifically sits fine with me) and, certainly, there are companies out there who have more dubious human rights records and ethical issues in the very way they do business - far and away more offensive than an otherwise straightforward gambling company. And, just like you say, it is a personal mater as to whether we engage with or support these companies. It is almost impossible to live in the modern world without doing so - all we can do is work within what we are personally comfortable with. And not buying the shirt is the sensible response given your personal objections.

 

So, kudos for a mature and sensible post. However (  ), quoting Helen Lovejoy in all of this!? Wow. I mean, she may indeed be likely to cry out for the children in this situation - but you can be sure it would be in a scene which is ridiculing the very outrage that this thread is teeming with. If we are at the point where Helen Lovelyjoy is being wheeled out, we need to shut up shop and agree that we've gone over the top.

Not that I'm not excited but Villa is or Villa are?

Are.

As I suspected

Carry on

Both are correct.

'Is' refers to a singular which can be Aston Villa FC and 'are' refers to a collective, as in Aston Villa the group.

Nevertheless, in football parlance my good man, surely the convention would be to use the collective term?

Thread title change now we say. Onward to thread title change and freedom!!

Phew! I mean ... Whew!

Never realised this thread was here. I'm a Ravens fan - and, no, not just since January 

 

Secondly, and on the back of that, we were 3-1 up and where normally I would be tense as hell awaiting the inevitable onslaught as we allowed the opposition back into the game, I had what can only be described as a moment of clarity and it felt perfectly plausible for us to go and score more, rather than concede. It was the first time in years that I had felt optimistic and comfortable during a Villa game and finally confirmed our turnaround.

I was still nervous. I remember turning to a mate at 3-1 and saying "well at least that guarantees us a point". I wasn't being facetious. But our hunger and positivity going forward quickly had me thinking "actually this could be any score".

 

At 3-1, I was still nervous for a period. And I don't know whether there was something specific which changed that or how it came about but it just hit me very suddenly that 4-1 was very possible. And it was one of those moments where you stop and realise how tense you are and just ... relax. 

There are two more personal moments of the season for me, both coming in the Sunderland game. They don't relate to specific game incidents as such - more just "feelings" that we had well and truly turned it round.

 

First was the crowd reaction to the Sunderland equaliser. Watching on a stream that evening, as the replays wrapped up and they returned to the action, you could hear what must have been every single Villa fan at VP roaring "Villa! Villa! Villa" in unison. It was such a defiant reaction to a setback and was such a contrast to the mood of just a few months previous.

 

Secondly, and on the back of that, we were 3-1 up and where normally I would be tense as hell awaiting the inevitable onslaught as we allowed the opposition back into the game, I had what can only be described as a moment of clarity and it felt perfectly plausible for us to go and score more, rather than concede. It was the first time in years that I had felt optimistic and comfortable during a Villa game and finally confirmed our turnaround.

 

As some have said, there have been moments on top of moments all of which have got us to where we are now but the game which was the real turning point IMO is the QPR game and the moment of that game is undoubtedly Gabby's equaliser in 1st half stoppage time.

 

It's easy to forget just how bleak things seemed at the time but QPR were actually buoyant when they visited VP and there was a real sense that they could be putting a run together. True, we were coming off the back of the Reading victory with confidence returning but a defeat here would have shattered that, with QPR drawing to within a point of us with a victory. Our fragile form could have disappeared if we bottled this one.

 

And so, already 1-0 down and with half time approaching, Bosingwa smashes a free kick against the post and seconds later, deep into stoppage time, Lowton lofts in a cross for Gabby to nod home. QPR should by rights have been out of sight but instead we went into the break on a massive high. We came out rampant in the 2nd half and the rest is history.

 

Honourable mention goes to Benteke's winner in the same game (and Weimann's determined work to set it up) for obvious reasons but, by then, the Gabby goal had had its effect and we had gone from pretenders (optimistic but fragile) to the real deal (genuine belief that we could survive). By the time Townsend scored, we knew we could and should still turn the game around again.

 

There have been other massive moments since - notably Lowton at Stoke and Gabby's 2nd at Norwich - but they have only been possible (or significant) thanks to that monumental QPR victory which set us on our way.

 

Not to mention it had the opposite effect on QPR - they crumbled after that match after winning 2 on the trot before.

 

Oh completely. It was even more than a 6-pointer - there was the 6 point swing itself plus the boost to our confidence topped with the shattering of theirs. Like I say; monumental.

As some have said, there have been moments on top of moments all of which have got us to where we are now but the game which was the real turning point IMO is the QPR game and the moment of that game is undoubtedly Gabby's equaliser in 1st half stoppage time.

 

It's easy to forget just how bleak things seemed at the time but QPR were actually buoyant when they visited VP and there was a real sense that they could be putting a run together. True, we were coming off the back of the Reading victory with confidence returning but a defeat here would have shattered that, with QPR drawing to within a point of us with a victory. Our fragile form could have disappeared if we bottled this one.

 

And so, already 1-0 down and with half time approaching, Bosingwa smashes a free kick against the post and seconds later, deep into stoppage time, Lowton lofts in a cross for Gabby to nod home. QPR should by rights have been out of sight but instead we went into the break on a massive high. We came out rampant in the 2nd half and the rest is history.

 

Honourable mention goes to Benteke's winner in the same game (and Weimann's determined work to set it up) for obvious reasons but, by then, the Gabby goal had had its effect and we had gone from pretenders (optimistic but fragile) to the real deal (genuine belief that we could survive). By the time Townsend scored, we knew we could and should still turn the game around again.

 

There have been other massive moments since - notably Lowton at Stoke and Gabby's 2nd at Norwich - but they have only been possible (or significant) thanks to that monumental QPR victory which set us on our way.

Seriously though, if we beat Norwich on Sat, not only are we looking good - it puts them right up against it. Tough game against West Brom then City on the last day. I have them going down, on 39 on goal diff.

Sauce = source. Bleedin' amateurs Where did you read that Pardew has lost le dressing room.

He's lost the dressing, not the sauce.

I'll give you that. Well played I didn't even see it coming!

Thank you sir. Oil get back on topic by saying I hope we Caesar chance on Saturday.

#quitwhileyoureahead

@ghostgoal has written a good piece on why Wigan's late surge last year might be difficult to reproduce. Martinez essentially changed to 3-4-3 in Jan, with the introduction of Beausejour. This took team's by surprise and allowed Wigan to go on a run.

With Rodallega and Moses gone, no January reinforcements and no surprise tactics sprung, Martinez doesn't have the same cards up his sleeve.

That's not to say they won't pull it off again but their "traditional" surge isn't so traditional and isn't just down to an ability to pull results from nowhere.

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/15129/8674834/All-out-of-surprises

(apologies if link is long - on phone, will fix later if broken)

Sauce = source. Bleedin' amateurs Where did you read that Pardew has lost le dressing room.

He's lost the dressing, not the sauce.

I think we'll win this.

A draw would be ok though. GD would be unaffected and it would extend the gap to 6 points to Wigan excluding their game. So even if they win theirs they're still a win plus GD behind us. So 3 and a half points effectively.

If Wigan lose and we win or draw we're as good as safe, imo.

The GD is so tight that it shouldn't really be viewed as a half point cushion. After all, in your Norwich-draw scenario, Wigan would implicitly close the GD gap if they were to close the actual points gap. Still in our hands, of course, but no way we should think the GD is a cushion.

I was wary of the Sunderland game but always had this as a win. Like another poster has said, I feel *less* confident now, oddly, as expectations have changed but I'd like to think we can still see it through. Knowing a win will (more or less) make us safe is such a better perspective for the players than thinking a loss would kill us.

2-0 Villa (last chance for a clean sheet IMHO)

Milner a great shout. Yorke obviously legendary - just don't think our strikers are too problematic at the moment.

F365 have been running a fun feature on which three players fans would bring back to enhance their current team. So, who do you think would best help the Villa cause at the moment?

For me, we are obviously missing leadership, experience and defensive stability so I would bring McGrath and Laursen back without a shadow of a doubt.

My last pick is a bit trickier. There are lots of great options for midfield - the composure of Cowans, the spirit of Taylor and the grit of Richardson - but for me something we have lacked for years is a link with the attack, a thrust from midfield which allows to take a game to opponents. And so, despite him not being a unanimous fan favourite, I'd give my third place to Platt.

How about you?

Interesting stattistics and article about academies and how many of them are playing in "Big 5" leagues/divisions

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2012/12/13/revealed-barcelona-no1-for-producing-players-for-clubs-in-europes-elite-leagues-131201/

Aston Villa being third in England and 24th in europe altogether isn't bad at all.

Great link thanks.

This debate really does go round and round in circles.

When you look at the money we spent in comparison to those we were competing with we never got close. The Net figure is very deceptive because we had bugger all to sell. If you look at Spurs over the same period whilst their Net spending was lower than ours they spent almost double gross, just happened they managed to make a lot of money out of the Carrick, Berbatov and Keane sales. During that time Arsenal weren't spending big on transfer fees but were stil paying higher wages (on average) and still had the draw of CL football.

We on the other hand had to pick ourselves up from one of our worst PL finishes, being a club that last won something in 96, we were never going to go out and attract the better players from day one unless we had the resources to pull a city and throw £150k a week wages and the dream of something special at players.

If he was signing the likes of Harewood and Routlede iin his last season then I'd have been up in arms, but realistically even with money to spend we had a damaged reputation to repair before we could attract a higher calibre of player.

The issue of wages wil come up time and time again, again in comparison to the other clubs around us when we were pushing for 4th place and trophies we weren't paying significantly higher than anybody and when you look at the previous sky4 and city we were still well behind. The major issue was wages as a proportion of income, and therein lies the major flaw in the Lerner/MoN model, even in the height of MoN 'glory days' income was not growing at a fast enough rate to support the expenditure.

As much as it stings me to say but I honestly believe we've missed that train, if we'd have hung onto Utd's coat tails the season we finished 2nd behind them then we could be an established top 4 club, but now the markets have been tapped, the early days of the CL was the time to gamble and the foreign markets are now saturated with Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool fans.

What MoN pehaps could have done, and something Lambert has realised he needs to do is tap into the foreign markets where transfer fees and wage demands are generally (not always) lower. It can be successfull as Newcastle proved last season but it is a higher risk strategy, look at the players like Makoun or even worse examples from our history like Balaban. It is much better imo to add a few foreign players to an established core than it is to rely almost entirely on relatively unproven foreign players hitting the ground running.

The final thing I will say is it's easy for us to look back and say we should have signed player A instead of player B, or surely player C was available at price X, but in reality we do not know what enquiries were made, what players were approached and what players turned us down. What we can measure is results, points, goals scored and goals conceeded and league position, and ultimately whether you agree with his method or not MoN delivered a decent return on the money he spent. Finishing in the top 4 woud have been overachieving, I think, and finishing below the Euro spots would have been under achieving.

Good thread, good debate and good post here. Agree with most this except the final paragraph which absolved MON of any responsibility towards the longer-term well-being of the club. He got results in his time here, no doubt, but the ends don't necessarily justify the means. On a signing by signing basis, it is really quite easy to say "good" or "bad" and plenty of had a go in this very thread.

But if you widen "signings" to mean "transfers", the debate becomes much more interesting. Transfers are more than just players and their performances and I think the typical MON transfer was weak when taken as a package. Most consisted of average to good players at pretty high cost and high wages, under-used and with little to no resale value. I know you have argued that resale values don't come inti the equation for clubs or club owners but I feel certain they do.

Looking forward to

Lambert finally signing

and this thread closing

Interesting read here about Rodgers' and Lambert's approach to football.

>>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/

Highly enjoyable read (as always from Michael Cox). Very refreshing to see coaches making proactive tactical changes to suit the context of the specific game, or even portion of the game. Excited to think we can look forward to these insights ourselves next season.

Incidentally, the final para was impressive in its prescience:

"Hopefully the mutual respect between the two will continue – we could do with less unsavoury bickering between managers of the biggest clubs in the country and when those coaches depart, Rodgers and Lambert should be regarded as contenders to replace them."

I think Villa would Funke awesome under his leadership

Best quote ever

100% agreed. It simultaneously makes no sense and hits the nail on the head.

Also, will the media finally acknowledge that the Blues-link was always a red herring when it came McLeish's unpopularity?

Probably not. Will be interesting what McLeish has to say on the matter if he gets another job.

I was watching SSN earlier and they brought it up again and were going on about how that would've made things hard for him but the guy at Bodymoor made a point of saying that in the end his SHA connections were meaningless as it was the results and standard of football that got fans on his back.

If he was in any way a competent manager, he would have turned round any minority bearing a Blues grudge. A complete red herring. The stats are overwhelming (goals scored / conceded from set pieces / corners, number of draws, number of losses, points accumulated, etc.) and that's before we even get to the fearfully dire approach to playing the game.

As soon as the inevitable Norwich loss was confirmed, he had to go. No owner of AVFC could have it on his record that he allowed a season like that go by without pulling the trigger.

I'm not expecting miracles next season - far from it - but I am looking forward to players playing with optimism and a little bit of freedom. Jeez, we don't ask for much.

Absolutely overjoyed and relieved. After yesterday's result confirmed such a record-breakingly awful season he simply had to go. For the dignity of the club alone, he could never survive such a disastrous season.

Having said that, Randy et al are complicit in this shambles and I think they now see the only way forward is to be magnanimous about that. Season ticket sales will be helped of course. And in a sense he is being made a scapegoat.

The appointment needs to be right this time round. I think the fans can buy into the need for patience if the right moves are made - hence the apparent support for Martinez here last year IIRC. The club statement does seem to suggest humble pie is being eaten and O am hopeful that the next appointment will be a positive one.

Doesn't mean we can compete any time soon though - but that's football.

Also, will the media finally acknowledge that the Blues-link was always a red herring when it came McLeish's unpopularity?

Kudos to McLesih for switching it up at the back. I am assuming L Young wasn't injured and was removed so that Warnock could nullify Hoillet who was killing us on our right. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Not having a pop at McLeish but Young should have been subbed at half time he got injured in the first half and was struggling....Blackburn scored attacking down his side could have cost us the match. Delph will become a Villa legend if he can stay fit!!!

Young was injured. I saw him limping before HT after a particularly nasty challenge off Dunne and he struggled with Hoillet after , who is a very good LW. Luke came out 2nd half looking decidely lack lustre and it was this that gave Hoillet chance to put in a sublime cross which Pederson buried.

Ok, this makes sense. I didn't see the 1st half so hadn't realised he had picked up an injury. It adds up, though, as Hoilett (who is a good player, as you say) got a hell of a lot of joy at the start of the 2nd half and LY was very half-hearted in the challenge leading to the goal.

WHY, maybe AM should have made the switch earlier. He gambled, I guess, and acted swiftly when the gamble failed.