WaccoeOnline

1 hour ago, DaveAV1 said:

You make a good point when you say that he employed people to run the club. I believe they are also culpable. But when you own anything, the buck stops at you. When you employ people you still have a responsibility for their performance. You can’t just walk away from responsibility. You take the praise for the success, you have to take the flack for failure. 

As for if we had won the play off final everything would be fine, I’m not so sure. I believe that would have papered over the cracks. We may not be having this conversation now, but at some point in the future we probably would. Poor business is poor business no matter what level you’re at. With the money washing about the Premier League, I shudder to think the kind of debt the clowns running the club, Xia being at the head, would have got us into. We’re up to our necks in it now, we may have drowned without trace in a sea of debt in a year or two had we been promoted to “The Promised Land”. 

The debt for share swap Xia did the day before the playoff finals suggests he was planning a quick flip to another owner had you gone up, netting Tony a good few quid in the process.  That’s what he was counting on, and in all likelihood it would all have turned out ok had the ball landed on the black not the red.  He isn’t/wasn’t into Villa for the long haul but as a short term gamble which has  - sadly for the fans more than anything - gone badly wrong.  

46 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Is anyone still pretending the guy is in any position to fund the club? 

Obviously it remains a mystery as to whether he's just broke, or whether there's anything to the claims he just can't get money out of China, but that's pretty inconsequential really. 

I thought the latter point was settled some time ago?  China relaxed currency curbs nearly a year ago.  The excuse that he "can't get funds out of China" is bizarre invention.

He may have severe cashflow problems, given that the biggest of his Chinese companies (such as they are) have been losing money for years.  Indeed its questionable given his recent statements (and what you've suffered since he took over) whether he has any money at all in the conventional sense.  But if he had ready money, there is nothing that would stop him from bringing it from China to the UK to meet end of month financial deadlines (as opposed to - say - mortgaging future transfer income)

Still you have to admire Xia for his academic achievements, at least.  I'm sure as he struggles with funding crises in China and Birmingham, his degree in landscape architecture will come in super handily.

26 minutes ago, Zatman said:

but they were good players you lost. Players mentioned above are a pile of shit or old and probably we will have pay to get rid of them

Point is we had to pay royally to get rid of our good players.  Imagine if Spurs took Grealish and you had to pay 30% of his wages as well, so the deal cost more than the transfer fee over time.  But you were forced to say yes to meet cash flow requirements.  That’s the sorts of deals we ended up signing.

How much will you have to pay to get rid of your terrible ones?  If McCormack is unsellable, would it be worth paying up his contract at 85% of its value in outstanding wages if payments were staged?  Cos that’s the sort of deal you might end up having to do.

1 hour ago, hippo said:

He had been trying to sell the club for a number years before he officially put it up for sale. Like Xia now his asking price was to high initially. Randy took a massive loss on Villa, but he purchased us with solid cash - whilst it may have been painful to lose all the cash - the cash was his to lose.

I believe to a greater or lesser extent Xia used borrowed cash, a realistic sale price for the club now wouldn't cover that borrowing, Xia can not afford to sell us IMO thats the only reason he is still here.

3 options:-

1. Out of the blue some someone offers £80m for a club that might at best be worth £40m

2.We go into administration and Xia is forced to sell

3.The club becomes so poor and so loss making - that xia cuts his losses and lowers the asking price

Sadly 2 & 3 are much more likely than 1 !

 

As you say, a lot depends on whether Xia is prepared to write off whatever he has put into the club and walk away with a quid in exchange for someone else taking on the debt or wants to hang on as long as possible whilst hoping a bigger fool comes along.  The longer he hangs on the less will be left for the next owner to work with and the longer and more expensive the climb back.

It is entirely possible (and indeed probable) that selling at a massive loss is no worse for Xia than selling/hocking whatever isn’t nailed down to delay what will become an inevitable admin.  And at least the latter offers him the remote chance of something/someone turning up to save him and (if he is that way inclined - our “bad” owners tended to be)  a bit of time to do some side deals to extract what he can from what’s left of the club to slightly mitigate his losses.  Side deals on a Villa Park sale, that sort of thing.

If that’s the case it could get messy very soon and makes getting a Xia out campaign up and running a priority.  Personal shaming and financial pressure are the only two weapons you have.  Whilst we couldn’t get a boycott of games going on a scale we tried.  Anything that brings financial matters to a head sooner rather than later can only be a good thing for you.  A swift admin might be better for you than Xia selling all your assets leaving an absolute wreck behind for whoever steps in eventually to sort things out.

For those of you who can be bothered to register at www.waccoe.com and want to check out how we ran our campaign against Cellino from our message board, have a read of these threads for a few ideas about getting your Xia out campaign going.
 

Edit: apols for rules breach - apparently I can't post links without including quotes of material.  Didn't realist that was a rule here.  Don't want to spam you with endless content.  if you want direct links to the content PM me or @hooter  

35 minutes ago, dounavilla said:

走出夏

" Get Out Xia" banner.

alternative:

 

庸医

"Charlaten" 

 

or maybe :

 

你说谎的推特不合身的西装穿着

"you lying tweeting bad fitting suit wearing conman"

So now hire all the ad signage around Villa Park with unflattering photos of him and those slogans

3 minutes ago, hooter said:

 

Bates was an object lesson in "creative loans", largely because most banks had no interest in lending to him.

Debt accrued to strange unidentifiable BVI-based vehicles, and latterly all manner of "pay day loans for corporate entities" companies when hocking future ticket and catering income.

GFH were if anything worse, they just loaded the club with punitive debt owed to them, if the club "owes" Xia as well as others it obviously explains why a. he won't sell yet , and b. he'll sell anything or anyone he can, at any half decent price, if he gets cash up front to keep the club running whilst it simultaneously sells other assets to "repay it's debt to him".

Once the virus is embedded in a football club, the lack of clarity and "delayed accountability" that companies house rules allow mean it is a bastard of a task to work out what damage is being done before it is too late, with an eye to our many scars I'd suggest assume the worst until he can prove you wrong, and do anything you can to unsettle and eventually remove him.

Sadly you'll find loads of your fanbase just won't or can't understand what is happening, and the battle is to get them onside so as you have strength in numbers.

The worst case, based on what we sufffered is that as Xia is now “acting CEO” as he claims, that will come at some considerable cost in “management expenses”, with extra on top to cover the considerable expertise brought to the table by the 29 year old Loughborough sports studies graduate.  And that’s before payments are made for the weapons grade HR skills that professor woman is contributing to the business. 

As you point out, the trick GFH perfected to maximize income from that scam was buying us with our own debt.  Then making us borrow more (from a company they happened to own) to cover those management fees, whilst starving us of cash to pay wages and pitch maintenance, etc.  at the time my back of envelope calculations suggested they’d made a profit on their acquisition just through that, which made whatever they got for the wreck of the club they left behind a bonus.  This meant that the next owner (utter loon that he was) was already doomed to fail whether or not he was competent (he wasn’t) as the debt around the clubs neck was somewhere close to our total value.  A shame he somehow was conned into not doing due diligence prior to purchase...

Bates’ wheeze was to create internal markets in which the club paid other entities owned by him for stuff most other clubs got for free internal or even raised cash from.  Like Leeds United paying Yorkshire Radio for the right to broadcast our games (rather than the other way around).  Or building contracts for work to the ground that were so excessive in value you wondered whether some of the money made its way back somehow as part of the deal (of course maybe he was just terrible at negotiating building contracts..)

Do still think there is money for Xia to make out of the car crash by selling assets (like the ground) at under value to BVI entities with penal rent back arrangements and a cash kick back on the side.  He may just lack the expertise in structuring it.  I know of a currently under employed sports investor in Cornwall who might be willing to help if asked...

5 minutes ago, terrytini said:

This is correct.

Misleadingly, the Trust issued a statement saying the ground couldn’t be sold due to it being registered as an “ asset of community value”. The true position is exactly as you’ve stated it......particularly that the owner is under no obligation to sell to any particular party.

If I was Xia and looking to make what I could out of this shambles drawing on historic precedent, I'd put VP on the market now to get the 6 month clock ticking asap and then sell at a £10m discount to market value to whatever BVI owner fancied extracting rent for the next 20 years, whilst pocketing a £5m facilitation fee through a side deal - either openly for "consultancy" or via a payment to another BVI registered shell.    In fact, I might even set up my own BVI company to do that deal, appointing another one as an "agent" and copping a 25% fee for facilitating the sale, smuggling both cash and assets out of the club at well under value before the club gets anywhere near admin.  That way I'd have Villa Park plus £5m (or whatever) of the sale price rebated back to me before anyone could join the dots.  Might then sell the BVI holding company for a multiple of the rent income, which would bypass that difficult community asset nonsense and win me some more money.  Might even start to get close to recouping whatever minimal cash I put in to get the club in the first place.  What do you reckon @hooter?  Reckon if Xia isnt up for it, there are people we know who would be.  Has anyone got Hisham on the phone recently?  Or Stanley?

27 minutes ago, hooter said:

I think VP is classed as an asset of community value, our Trust managed to get the same status for Elland Road.

If so, my understanding is it gives partial protection, it can't be sold on without "the community" (in our case I believe that means the Supporters trust) being given 6 months (I think ) to try and come up with a bid to buy it.

I don't think there is any obligation to accept that bid, even if it matches any other, but the long and short of it is you'd get plenty of notice if there was a plan to sell the ground, whereas ours just passed into the hands of an unknown BVI entity almost overnight back in the day.

I cant remember whether this has any impact on it being used as security against debt.  Presumably if its effectively mortgaged, a sale could be forced with the bank effectively choosing the next owner.

tbh I've always been wary of a supporters trust (or local council) owning a ground without owning the club, as the scope for game playing around rent, etc - and bad owners blaming good fans for their own ineptitude is too great.  Ideally ground and club should go hand in hand.  Our particular adventures around ground ownership you wouldn't want to wish on anyone however  

15 minutes ago, eholm said:

IMO, Absolutely no chance he ever attends VP again. I cannot see him ever returning to the UK. He may we’ll be a complete fraud and a liar.....but he’s not stupid. 

Surely now he’s become not just owner but acting CEO he’ll be in and out of Villa Park every day  

11 minutes ago, Dick said:

You must have missed the Lerner-out campaign we put together on this forum.

Think at the time we probably thought you were lucky to have Lerner compared to the filth in charge of our club 

11 minutes ago, TheEgo said:

I followed it with interest and only wish our fan base could manage to collaberate, sadly it's far too busy taking pot shots at one another after years of divide and conquer. Apathy is the main emotion of many. A dangerous mindset.

The truth is most of our fans were apathetic or actively collaborated with the crooks wrecking us turning on their own trying to save the club.  Was prob only 3000 or so hardcore, mostly originally off our messageboard but also organising via twitter, who got behind the campaign.  And maybe only 10-20 getting properly stuck into organising, leafleting, poster campaigns, media, etc.  But sometimes that’s all it takes.  And when a few hundred lads online one evening can raise £10k just like that - and then week after week to keep stunts and campaigns going, you’ve a chance.

Sad fact is a lot of our “fans” would abuse the protestors - singing “support the club or xxxx off home” when protests started, etc.  probably the majority of our fans were like yours, but even worse were like that over 10-15 years.  Even set up their own pro-owner group “In Massimo We Trust” to coordinate vile attacks and smears on those pushing for change.

Thankfully enough good lads were willing to stand up and be counted enough to keep our self respect.  Even if some had their lives disrupted and pulled apart as a result of the sacrifices they made and how far the quislings and collaborators in our fanbase were willing to go to turn on their own rather than on the vile scum who owned us.

Stories could be told.  And some will never be forgiven.  But more important were those who put lives on hold to try to make a difference.  Am sure with support as large as yours you can find their like and galvanize more, if you choose to.

4 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

With all due respect, I hadn’t heard of all that media pressure you put on Cellino and I’m from Birmingham. So whether it reached Italy seems unlikely. As other posters, with Chinese connections  have said, we ain’t big news over there and reaching the Chinese media is hopeful at best. 

However something must have worked, so fair play. 

To be fair we weren’t aiming for the Brimningham press but we did make it all over the national tabloids, particularly with the projection stunt.  And into his local papers in Italy.  But the insulting posters all round the ground were as effective in making him uncomfortable and unhappy.  

Heres a bit of the coverage

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/leeds-united-fans-step-up-campaign-against-massimo-cellino-with-elland-road-protest-a6876701.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/leeds-fans-hire-for-sale-8006230

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/15/leeds-fans-protest-massimo-cellino-reading

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/494804/Leeds-fans-protest-Massimo-Cellino-images-projected-Elland-Road

of course at the time you were probably still enjoying your football, no need to pay attention to a northern club on its knees...

43 minutes ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

 

Until that, I'd happily be part and chip in on a massive Xia out campain with a demand to sell us to responsible owners. 

If you need help on the mechanics, I'm sure @hooter or me could put you in touch with the lads who ran the campaign to get Massimo Cellino (Time To Go Massimo) out of the club - the stuff he linked to in his recent post.  Wasn't just laser projections on stands during televised games, we hired all the commercial billboards round the ground and put up signs denouncing him (its less expensive than you think), as well as the usual demos, marches, etc.  The aim was to cause maximum embarrassment and discomfort for him all the time to the point where it reduced the threshold at which, when other stuff turned against him, he would throw in the towel.  Aim was to reach the Italian (but in your case the Chinese) press as much as UK and local audiences to make him look an embarrassment back at home as much as he was at Leeds.

Took a lot of coordination and a fair whack of cash.  We used Waccoe - our equivalent of VillaTalk - to raise cash to help kickstart some of it.  The projections cost close to £10k, but we raised that in less than 12hrs on waccoe from board members.  Other stuff not so expensive, and we used board members with graphic design skills, lawyers on the board offering time for free, etc.  Also created huge amounts of memes, photoshops, etc that could be used on twitter to rile and annoy him and his supporters.  I'm sure theres a lot that could be shared if you wanted it.

Its pretty clear now that Xia doesn’t have the sources of cash to fund your club and probably never has.  The money that has gone into Villa since his purchase has all been parachute payments, fresh debt or asset sales.

If he wants to hold on for it’s for a couple of reasons (1) he can’t afford to sell at the loss he would have to sell at, it would wipe him out given that his Chinese interests are all **** as well; and (2) given that he might as well cling on in the hope something turns up.  

The likely (if grim) truth for you guys is that catastrophic administration at Villa is no worse for Xia than a sale at fair value so for him the rational thing to do is keep his claws in on the off chance someone turns up to offer more than take the club and it’s debts off him for a penny (or whatever your real net worth is at the moment).  Of course his ideal scenario is that someone buys a minority stake in the club in exchange for injecting a load of cash.  But only another delusional lunatic would buy in on those terms.  And you don’t need another delusional lunatic owner.

So you sell Grealish and Chester for the highest upfront fee you can manage as distressed sellers.  Perhaps £15m in total, which should enable you to make it through to October at their current burn rate. Given loans have all disappeared off, it doesnt leave you with much of a team.  You can’t afford to sack Bruce so he’ll hang around until a better offer comes in or go through the motions.  In the meantime the club’s infrastructure will be gutted - didn’t another senior backroom guy leave today/yesterday?And I guess you hope that what turns up isn’t mid season meltdown, relegation and admin...:( 

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

https://villaleaks.com/china-xia-publicly-rebuked/

Not sure how reliable. If it is, he continues to look like a liar and untrustworthy. 

Just a good experiment though. Poor Tony.

Interesting article, though sad experience of dishonest and incompetent owners at Leeds suggests the wrong question is being asked.

The article speculates as to what the censure might mean for Xia’s ability to access more investment from China.  

Reckon the bigger question is “if he would lie and falsify this sort of stuff in China, what might he be lying about and falsifying in relation to Aston Villa’s business affairs and financial situation, and how might that impact on the club if/when it comes out?”

1 hour ago, rubberman said:

I wonder what he's holding out for... Presumably as he has turned down £40m for 51%, it's either £80+ for everything or £40m for 49% and keeping control. Getting back what he paid would save face I guess. 

If there are serious talks, there's no way Jack would be cashed in on at this point. Wait and see... 

We got a lot of this at Leeds. Usually it meant someone had come in, looking at the disaster of our books and walking away.  But our glorious owner couldn’t admit to that level of indignity do

Pretended he was swimming in mystery bids which he was always turning down  because they weren’t for the good of the club or weren’t ever quite high enough.

Of course your bids may indeed be real ones....

2 hours ago, dounavilla said:

I'm of the opinion that we need a new owner who has a beard and some money.

Not just stubble , nor a Jedi special, just a full non patchy beard.

This will meet my requirements.

 

Ken Bates

53 minutes ago, snowychap said:

She is Professor.

Is she this professor? https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Yanfang_Gu

If so, her specialism is "Biofilm Formation" - ie managing scum...

3 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Foreign AND a woman?

And largely fictitious CV from the sound of it....

So who is Yanfang Gu - the "executive president" of Shanghai SmartTech Group? and new(ish) director of your club?  Her declared remuneration seems quite low for such an exalted title.  About £35k a year...  https://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/officer-profile/002178ta.SZ/1058649

And what does she know about running football clubs?  

Wow

53 minutes ago, tinker said:

My guess .He's generating shares so he can raise money against those shares. Guess he would use the money to borrow more time for us or to make some money before he runs back to China. With the CEO gone he can do all sorts of questionable things with little or no come back , that's why Wymen had to go, he wouldn't let him do it as it's corrupted. I think he brought us and used us a leverage in other attempted aqusissions, trying to build a paper empire based on the illusion he owns a big football club called Aston Villa . 

Whatever happens hes still a shit owner. He's absent when we appear to be in crisis, his silence is now deafening. We need information more than ever, start of a new season, should be attracting season tickets renewals , sponsorship deals and keeping players happy and aquring new ones.

Business decisions have been terrible from day one. 

 I will be relieved when he's gone but suspect we will be sold to the highest bidder. 

Leeds experience is that when you’re on your uppers financially, the club doesn’t go to the highest bidder but to the bidder most willing to purchase with limited due diligence and/or with minimal indemnities against any possible hidden liabilities turning up in the future.  

From the point of view of the exiting bad owner, they just want the last bit of cash out and no comeback ever again.  The value of the club vs debt is probably close to negative, particularly if retention’s against potential future liabilities are taken into account.  But the bad owner wants/needs cash and the ability to get away fast (and - if they are particularly greedy - undertakings as to a share of any upside if the next owner somehow turns it around).  No responsible business person would ever agree to this so the only potential bidders willing to trade on the terms of the bad owner are people even more reckless, criminal or stupid than the guy selling.  Which is not a good trajectory for any club.

We were eventually saved because a combination of FA/FL personal bans, fan unrest and potential prison in Italy made Cellino a willing seller before he could wreck things in the way he seemed set on.  The cycle of wrecking that started with Bates picking us up when we were in a similar situation to the one you’re in now was broken.  But only after 15 years of wrecking and disaster.

Have to say it’s not looking good at the moment.  A lot rests on whether Xia has any moral compass at all or if he just wants to he away with a few quid in his pocket regardless of the consequences.  If his exit is a messy one it could get very bad indeed.  A professionally run Administration might be the least worst option if it enables you to shed the debt and be bought by someone moderately honest and competent.

11 minutes ago, ViewFromT2 said:

Not sure if it's been mentioned at all....but  allotment of 57m shares was made on 25 May, as were the 69.5m shares in Recon Group UK.

This being THE DAY BEFORE the play off final?......clearly that game was actually irrelevant to whatever Tony is planning?

Suggests he was ready for a quick flip if Villa had gone up, realising his gain and letting someone else in to sort the finances.

The problem was losing that game.  Left a bunch of unnecessary shares and no way to finance the ongoing cash needs of the business.

Think the share issue means less in terms of where you are now than the Macquarie deal does.  Hard to see why anyone would want to buy Villa until the owner was as distressed as possible.  There may be a lot more pain before you get there.