babyblue

On 12/06/2023 at 09:29, babyblue said:

Poor as in loads of mistakes, slow to get back, slow to get forward, or frankly just anonymous a lot of the time. Numbers can mask a performance can't they, does popping up with something good in the 80th minute when already 4-0 down and stat padding, does that make it a good performance?

On 12/06/2023 at 09:39, babyblue said:

With respect, that's really not saying much considering everyone outside perhaps Maddison was total and utter dog sh***. Plus, whoscored is frankly nonsense and massively padded out towards attackers. The amount of times I've seen someone fluke an assist or goal off their arse after a terrible performance and get MOTM is laughable. 

 

On 12/06/2023 at 09:43, babyblue said:

With respect, that's really not the case in terms of discussing his performances. I've tried to remain completely level headed here about when he's been good, when he's been bad and I hope my posts reflect that. He genuinely hasn't been very good, sure you'll have the odd flash here or there. But it's really mirrored his performances for Belgium where he's been criticised quote a bit also, also at Monaco. 

That's not to say he won't be good, he's 100% got it within him. He had an amazing 18 months over a couple of spells where he was genuinely brilliant. Plus... it's a free transfer, yeah he'll get a nice pay packet and bonus. But it's still a good deal, even if he ends up being a squad player. 

Tried to warn people and got shouted down. 

I really don't know what his issue is, he's got ability without question. Perhaps he's just one of those players that doesn't really want to be a footballer and it's just a job. 

2 hours ago, S-Platt said:

Yeah but if Maddison could take a penalty like Tielemans you would still be in The Prem  

Didn't he miss his last few also!

10 hours ago, briny_ear said:

I usually give Villatalk a miss during the summer months precisely because of the sort of chat we have seen a lot of in this thread - knee-jerk negativity about any signing, a rather bizarre sense of entitlement, and barrack-room scouting talk.

This signing has come quite early so I haven’t shut down yet and I am suitably depressed by many of the comments I have been unfortunate to catch. One thing that may be new is the excessive and lengthy quoting of opinions from other fan sites which are presented as authoritative - does this normally happen?

Leicester fans are quite understandably borderline insane with anger and hurt at their sudden ejection from the premier league and are clearly lashing out in all directions. Quite why anyone would take anything they say seriously I am not sure.

For the first time in years and years we have owners, a scouting set up and a manager who appear to know what they are doing and give us real hope for the future. Looks like some Villa fans have yet to adjust to this new reality and are still in hand wringing mode. 

 

With respect, that's really not the case in terms of discussing his performances. I've tried to remain completely level headed here about when he's been good, when he's been bad and I hope my posts reflect that. He genuinely hasn't been very good, sure you'll have the odd flash here or there. But it's really mirrored his performances for Belgium where he's been criticised quote a bit also, also at Monaco. 

That's not to say he won't be good, he's 100% got it within him. He had an amazing 18 months over a couple of spells where he was genuinely brilliant. Plus... it's a free transfer, yeah he'll get a nice pay packet and bonus. But it's still a good deal, even if he ends up being a squad player. 

20 hours ago, Brumstopdogs said:

Seems like after Maddison he was one of their best players last season (going by FotMob and whoscored.com rather than a lot of Leicester fans).

The common theme is that although he is talented his fitness has been a big problem for him.

We've seen the miracles Emery has worked with our current squad and even McGinn looks a 90 minute player now where as under previous managers he often looked knacked after an hour.

If anyone can get the best out of Tielemans then it will be Unai. Also, given the quality we have in midfield already Tielemans will have to be playing well to get in the team. UTV!

With respect, that's really not saying much considering everyone outside perhaps Maddison was total and utter dog sh***. Plus, whoscored is frankly nonsense and massively padded out towards attackers. The amount of times I've seen someone fluke an assist or goal off their arse after a terrible performance and get MOTM is laughable. 

14 hours ago, tomsky_11 said:

Poor in what sense? I've not watched any of him expect when against Villa so hard to judge for me on anything other than the data and how it compares to our current midfield. We are being told by Leicester fans who have watched him he's been poor recently. To me from the numbers it looks more like a deeper role leading to less attacking impact. But even still he's still hitting pretty decent numbers in terms of ball progression and chance creation, and looks reasonable defensively too.

Sure, the numbers say he's never hit the heights of that first six months with you. But then the numbers he put up then were exceptional. He's dropped off to a level that is still pretty good from what I can see.

I'd guess we are likely to see him predominantly in the McGinn role under Emery, which for the most part has been the advanced right side of a box midfield 4. So more license to drift into the attacking 3rd and penalty box (mostly in the inside right channel)and attempt to create chances or take chances with low risk of being caught out with Kamara and Luiz deeper in the midfield.

He could also end up in the deeper Luiz role, though he's unlikely to be ahead of Luiz so that would probably mean Luiz taking the more advanced position, or it being cover in case Luiz was ever out.

Poor as in loads of mistakes, slow to get back, slow to get forward, or frankly just anonymous a lot of the time. Numbers can mask a performance can't they, does popping up with something good in the 80th minute when already 4-0 down and stat padding, does that make it a good performance?

1 hour ago, tomsky_11 said:

How much is his change in perceived performance at Leicester down to tactical changes impacting him and his role? And the performance of the rest of the team?

There's a pretty noticable difference in his areas of operation at Leicester between his earlier and later seasons. Far more touches and tackles in the defensive and middle 3rds in the last two seasons, far more in the attacking 3rd in the seasons before that. Alongside this, other indicators of a switch to a less attacking, more defensive role - in the last two seasons, far more shots blocked, more tackles (and noticably better success in them), fewer progressive passes received (but more possession), fewer miscontrols and being dispossessed, more fouls, but also less fouled himself despite more possession, improved short and medium range passing but worse long range, fewer shots and on average further from goal, with npxG per shot halved from his first to last season.

Even seeming to play this deeper role, he's still been putting up decent shot creation numbers and getting the ball into dangerous areas through passing far more often than any of our current midfield. And his assist numbers dropped off far more at Leicester than the volume and quality of his chance creation did, so is this impacted more by the players he had around him?

It seems to me like he'll come into our side most likely in the current McGinn role on the advanced right side of our midfield 4, and therefore operate in areas more like I suspect he was utilised early on at Leicester, in a team performing towards the higher end of the table. If indeed his ability in possession and as a goal threat hasn't changed and we can utilise him higher up the field, I don't see why we can't get goal and assist numbers from him similar to his most productive periods at Leicester.

To potential add that to our squad while saving potenitally £5-10M a season on paying a fee for an equivalent player is great business for us.

He has had poor seasons even in a more attacking position. But his and our best football was played with him and Maddison as 8’s with Ndidi holding. Later on when Rodgers shit the bed, it was more Maddison as a 10 and Ndidi and Tielemans behind. 

1 hour ago, Tom13 said:

Is this about Tielemans? He only had one loan there before going perm didn't he? So how was he brilliant and poor?

Read it again

1 hour ago, TRO said:

And thats the essence of the whole scenario.....what he has done with Leicester, is in a different team to us, and subsequently he was subjected to their ills.

We took a chance on Emi Martinez, and look at how that turned out......players respond to their surroundings, some more than others....some get motivated by a move away.

We as Villa fans don't know, which Youri Tielemans we will get, but he is 26 and potentially in his prime, on a free transfer......what is there not to like from our point of view.

I understand the disappointment the Leicester fans feel, after relegation, but it wasn't a last minute thing, it was coming.......but my advice is not to blame other clubs for doing their job, for their clubs......Blame your club for not doing their job, for you.

Ps If Youri plays poor, he won't get in the team, its not complicated.

I don’t think anyone but a couple of idiots bares villa any bad will in this scenario. 

1 hour ago, PaulC said:

I have faith that Emery will make him consistently good. We have good choices in midfield, hes going to have to be consistently very good to get in the team.

That’s what he needs, he coasted here without proper competition.

9 minutes ago, Adam2003 said:

Last year I hear, but the summer of 2022 I’m reading articles touting him as the best midfielder in the league and he won your Player of the Year Award - do you just mean his attitude of not signing a new deal?
 

Also he got his massive move away, he’s just joined a CL club a couple of years early

That was the year before, Maddison was player of the season last year and this year…. Well I couldn’t even tell you if we had the award.

As I said a few times it went:

Brilliant during last loan.

Poor season by loan standards.

Brilliant season (Player of season year).

Poor season by previous standards.

Poor season by previous standards.

23 minutes ago, StanBalaban said:

I think we shouldn't ignore the effect on YT of playing for a manager that has run out of ideas and, as a consequence, constantly being on the end of shit results. As fans, we only get to see the player's output on match day, but look how good footballers have suffered in that past.

The counter point to that is that he was poor in his second season when we were playing well as a team and finished 5th.

His form was up and down here as I said, as it was elsewhere.

2 hours ago, Follyfoot said:

Are you saying he’s a bad egg and possible poison in the dressing room?
 

On a sidenote, I hope you keep Deano, he will get you up no problem especially with the links that Shakey already has 

I don’t think he’s like that, more a case of people see a player not 100% committed and angling for a move away, it impacts them also. 

On 09/06/2023 at 12:07, lexicon said:

I don't think it's a slur to play on the counter but that's essentially how Barnes plays, is it not? Looking to get in behind/on the shoulder and use his pace etc. I don't mean to be disrespectful to the guy as I'm not saying he's bad or anything, it's just that we need a player who will be happy to play deeper sometimes too, hold up the ball and play a lot of passes at times, as we probe their defence. We need someone who is more of a team player than Barnes IMO.

As I said, we’ve not played that way for 5 years. So how’s he got all the goals and assists if that’s the only way he plays?

18 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

I believe he’s a good option for a club aiming to be consistently mid table. But, he’s an expensive option. I’m absolutely positive there are players across the continent that can do what he does for half the price and on half the money.

Regardless, we’re aiming to break the top 6 consistently and we’ve got Ramsey who plays in a similar position and is better. 

Im of the opinion we’ll need better than Harvey Barnes to finish in the top 6 next season. 

Absolutely fine about ‘missing out’ here. 

We finished top 5 twice and won an FA Cup with him in the team and contributing a lot. His assists and goal contributions are some of the "best of the rest". He needs challenging and a decent coach, he's been able to coast under Rodgers because we've had nobody else and Rodgers couldn't help a player tactically in a million years. 

I suppose somewhat similar to Tielemans, who on his day is a player who can turn a mid table team into a top 6 contender. But they need pushing and the right management, and competition for places.

18 hours ago, lexicon said:

No, I'm the same because his style doesn't suit the way we play our overall game. It's also why I don't think we'll be after him - his skillset is just counter attacking football, as the Leicester fan who came on here detailed. We need a player who can do more than just that. 

Harsh, we haven't played counter attacking football for 5 years or more. 

Barnes requires a top class coach to work with him and help him, he has a huge amount of ability but he's lacking a number of things that CAN be coached. 

On 07/06/2023 at 12:35, QldVilla said:

Maybe you should reread my posts, I said there were numerous reasons, one being the lack of money for transfers.

Which had nothing to do with it. He spent in January on HIS targets and we got worse, as we have done every time he's bought players pretty much. 

31 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

So it’s the owners fault for being asleep at the wheel and allowing the manager to be reckless with the clubs structures. Thanks for the clarification.

Did I say they weren't? I've said already on here they should have sacked him a long time ago, and for that they are culpable. But the notion we are where we are, because we didn't spend one summer is ludicrous. We're where we are because of Rodger's and their inability to act on his nonsense.

13 hours ago, av1 said:

Thanks for the response mate. But I guess that poses then another question. 
 

You’ve made your fellings known about Rodger’s in the same way we feel about Gerrard. But how do you apportion the blame? The manger was a prat but surely if  the good players you have down tools then that is a problem with them? 
 

Mods I know we have a Leicester thread so I’m not trying to go OT, but I ask the question because it’s a concern I have about this particular player. 

Do you blame yourself at work if the culture there is shite, the managers are all shite and you go into work not feeling wanted and you can't wait to get out the door? Or do you blame those who made you feel like that. 

Now I'm sure most of us have professional pride in what we do and still try our best. But at that level, if you aren't at 100% it can make a massive difference. 

59 minutes ago, av1 said:

I disagree mate. Under Gerrard the players simply looked as though they didn’t know what they were meant to be doing (like their manager) rather than downing tools. 
 

I don’t know, @babyblue might tell me I’m talking complete nonsense, but their attitude just looked really bad to me on the few times I watched them. 

Correct, too many players had checked out and the rest were totally demoralised by Rodgers. 

5 minutes ago, Jono62 said:

@babyblue How do you think Smith did while in charge?

I think we improved, which isn't difficult from the utter buffoon who we had in charge before. 

Unfortunately, I don't think he came in with a singular game plan. Some games we were hung ho, other games ultra defensive. It wasn't particularly cohesive in terms of thinking. 

He didn't have enough time though really, by that point we'd been drained of almost all confidence by Rodgers. So really hard to come to any conclusive argument for or against him. 

On 30/05/2023 at 12:02, villa89 said:

7th highest wage bill in the league and 9 first team players out of contract. An owner who has severe financial issues. Not going to be a good few years for them. Needed to sack BRodge a lot sooner.

Don't think it was ever 7th highest, Everton were always ahead of us. We started cutting back a season or so back due to the FFP changes on the horizon, so it was already coming down. Factor into that all players have a 50% relegation wage drop and the 9 players being out of contract is a god send. It means ALL of those high wages are off the books instantly. 

Not sure why you think the owners have money issues, they just wrote off £200m debt and were still pressing ahead with a massive ground revamp and the surrounding areas. Of course there were covid issues, but it had no impact on us financially. That was about us being at the top of our limit already in terms of what we could spend and pass FFP. 

Agree on Rodgers, absolute shit show that bloke and sticking with him when it was obvious to all fans sealed our fate. I lay the blame almost entirely at his door, despite his PR team wanting everyone to think otherwise. 

7 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

If that was true it would be reflective of his whole career, not a season where the club was relegated. The whole evidence shows a player who was a regular starter for a Belgium team which was ranked No 1 in the world for 4 years straight, played regularly in European competition and won an FA. Cup and Community Shield

Monaco fans hated him, here he had a good 18 months. Outside of that he's also been poor. I seriously think he has a motivation problem. 

7 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

The club sold their best players the last 4 seasons and never replaced them, the club turned off the tap, didn’t sign the players the manager wanted, but the blame rests with Tielemans? 

Eh... if you think this is what's happened to us and what's been the problem, I'm sorry but you're taking your information from the wrong people.