Alec

McLeish needs to find a system and a first eleven that are more adept at finding space in the final third, and so far he is struggling. But no more or no less than the previous two managers - and anyone that thinks differently has a very cosy revisionist view of history.

And anyone that thinks that McLiesh has a scooby about how to set up a front 6 is equally misguided IMO having watched the first 5 games.

I couldn't say with any great confidence that he will, and nor am I suggesting that McLeish is the right man for the job now any more than he was in the summer. But the recent performances at VP against Wolves and Newcastle are ones that we have seen so many times over the last five or six years that those stating the lack of creativity or service to the forwards is a new problem are simply wrong. And it's worth pointing out that both O'Neill and Houllier had greater resources at their disposal to rectify it. In other words, this doesn't have to be another stick to beat McLeish with.

Its the story of our lives...We purchase a top quality goal scorer and then the manager that knows how to use him, is forced to retire through injury..

Let's get something straight as so many of our short-sighted, narrow-minded, agenda-packing 'supporters' are always so keen to contextualise the bad form of one player as being symptomatic of something else (chiefly, McLeish's appointment as manager). Darren Bent is exactly the same player this season as he was last season, and many more prior to that.

Houllier was no better at using him than McLeish, Steve Bruce, Martin Jol or Alan Curbishley (only Redknapp has ever seriously misused the player by way of his public admonishing). Contrary to popular belief, Bent doens't put away nine out of ten chances - he has always missed as many as he's scored. His goal-scoring form tends to come in fits and starts and when he's on fire, he's really on fire. Anyone who actually goes to the games will recall his performances last season against Fulham (h), Blackpool (a), Bolton (a), Wolves (h), Newcastle (h), Wigan (h) to name but a few that were pretty much identical to his performances so far this season, including Saturday's. His injury is no doubt not helping matters, but he missed similar chances or got the ball stuck under his feet or got his first touch wrong in just the same manner last term as we have seen on occasion this season. He was just as isolated and starved of chances when Houllier was deploying him up front with other other players (especially Young and Agbonlahor) out of position and numerous games went by without any kind of service.

His current loss of form will be temporary and is no more down to McLeish than his impressive run of goals was down to McAllister during the final weeks of last season.

Could we be more creative? Absolutely. Could service to him be improved? Unquestionably. Would he still rather have Ashley Young in the team than Charles N'Zogbia? Of course.

But these are all problems that would've needed addressing this season with the personnel we have regardless of the manager. McLeish needs to find a system and a first eleven that are more adept at finding space in the final third, and so far he is struggling. But no more or no less than the previous two managers - and anyone that thinks differently has a very cosy revisionist view of history.

Thought he played reasonably well too. Just can't understand the formation today - I've liked the way we've set up 4-2-3-1 so far this season and have thought for a while that all we needed to do was replace Heskey with Bannan (or possibly Ireland) in the central role between midfield and Bent and we would see that little more cohesion in our play. With Heskey injured and Bannan starting, I just don't understand why we shifted to a very flat 4-4-2 with Bannan stranded out wide on the right. He tried to make the best of things but he's always going to be less effective if not in the middle.

I have defended McLeish on these boards on a number of issues and always try to see the reason behind certain decisions, even if I don't agree with them, but the tactics and formation were all wrong today and he has to take the blame for that.

Looking forward to this - seems like it's been a long three weeks since the Wolves game. We need to be targetting four points from this game and the next fixture away at QPR - get them and I think McLeish can reflect on a very positive start.

With Heskey and Jenas sidelined, I'd expect the following;

......................Given.......................

Hutton....Collins......Dunne...Warnock

.............Petrov......Delph.................

N'Zogbia........Bannan......Agbonlahor

......................Bent.........................

Will be tight - despite Newcastle's lack of firepower, Pardew has got them considerably more organised than they were when he took over. Think we'll edge it 1-0 or 2-0.

I'm of the school of thought that captains should be defenders or midfielders. Never comfortable seeing a GK or a striker take the armband.

If Houllier and Duverne's training was too difficult for him, maybe he approached it all wrong. I think he tried to get a posse to go against the system, trying to draw up other players to go against the ethos Houllier was trying to instill..Or to go behind Houllier's back slagging him off to Lerner and board..

I have plenty of criticisms of Dunne and feel he is very lucky to still be at the Club after last season's performances, but these kind of conspiracy theories are pure hokum.

The real reason that Dunne and his other defenders had such issues with Houllier last season was not so much down to the fitness regime (though I will acknowledge that Dunne was said to have been one of those that felt the physicality of certain sessions was too extreme for mid-season) but the total lack of a defensive plan that would've addressed the ongoing confusion between zonal and man-marking systems that continued to plague us throughout the season. Whatever I may think of Dunne as a person, he knows his business as a defender so I can only imagine how frustrating it must've been for the Club's defensive players to labour under such an inept approach to defending by the manager and his coaches when the problems going unaddressed were so glaringly obvious.

Comparatively, McLeish's pragmatism - and, dare I say it, professionalism - have clearly been adopted by the players who once again look like a cohesive unit at the back.

But, to bring this back on to the topic at hand, Petrov remains the only choice as Club captain and his steadying influence during good times and bad is something that Dunne has never been especially reknowned for.

too small, too lightweight.

fellaini bossed midfield on saturday only because of sharp elbows, height and strength.

It would be very interesting to see Fellaini lining up for Villa in the role Heskey currently plays.

I think Bannan and Delph would work well with a combative midfielder in there too. I just think all these players need a midfielder that does the nitty gritty stuff and the dirty work in the team. Petrov is too slow and cant cover the ground, so it forces other players to track back all the time and we lose our balance. With a combative midfielder the rest of team could hold its shape a bit better.

Completely agree. I would have loved us to bring in Mulumbu over the summer but we obviously didn't. I believe Clark could do this, in the way that Phil Jones did for Blackburn, and his inclusion would also replace Heskey's aerial presence in both defence and attack.

I also think that Herd could potentially do this and also provide aerial cover. His performance against Wolves shows how strong he is and how much energy he has.

The biggest difference with Everton at the weekend, IMO, was their energy in CM. Petrov just doesn't have this and hasn't since he has been at VP.

You're possibly right about Clark and I can see that he has the potential to develop into a midfielder the same way that Gareth Barry did. Ultimately, we don't know if McLeish or anyone else at the Club has this in mind for him, but if they did I would suggest that he would have to line up alongside Petrov for the foreseeable future rather than Delph. The latter always talks about the way Petrov helps him through games and how much he relies on the elder player's presence and guidance - Clark would require the same, if not more.

Without it, we would be out-muscled to an even larger degree than we were at times on Saturday. We simply can't have an entire midfield of young players learning as they go.

I think he has joined a team where he is having to work for the ball more.

Don't fall into the trap of confusing Wigan's 'pretty' football with dominating possession. They are a lightweight outfit who spend more of the game chasing the ball than playing with it due to their own lack of an effective holding player/ball-winner in midfield. You may be quite right in that N'Zogbia is having to work harder now, but as much for the team as for the ball - expectations are higher here and chipping in with a few fancy dribbles alone is not going to cut it. I think he will become a better player for developing other aspects of his game here but clearly he is still very much adjusting.

Petrov was poor against Everton and his goal kinda saved him. But our midfield was eaten alive by Everton, they played rings around us. I dont know what the answer is because we dont really have anyone that can replace Petrov in the squad, unless we give Clark a run out in DM and give Dunne the captaincy. Clark will offer more drive and energy, he will also cover more ground.

I would love to see a CM of

------------ Clark ------------

------------------ Delph -----

----- SI ----------------------

given a chance in a proper game.

Only if you want to get annihilated.

He cant play in the system McLeish plays..He has just left a club that are built to play passing football, by working the ball through the team, spreading it out wide etc...Bent and N'Zogbia will struggle at hoof ball. We need to start playing the game, passing more to bring N'Zogbia and Bent into the game more.

I don't often say this but I agree with you.

I don't think this is the case - as others have alluded, N'Zogbia isn't necessarily one to receive the ball and immediately look to cross. That wasn't the way Wigan set up last season - he played in virtually the same position, drifting in from the right, dribbling and working the ball on to his left foot when in range. The formation that we've started with is fine, in and of itself, and one that should play to N'Zogbia's strengths.

That he isn't firing at the moment is down to three things in my opinion; firstly, he's now a much smaller fish in a much bigger pond and every attack is not designed to feed the ball to him as there are other attacking players just as key to us; secondly, I think the current formation is seeing us work the ball into much more promising central positions than I've seen us do under either of the last two managers due to the way our forward line is so interchangeable as opposed to the flat 4-4-2 we have been generally used to, but unfortunately Heskey is the weak link in that despite his impressive work-rate and above-par performances on a personal level this season, he slows the play down too much and can't keep the ball moving to the likes of N'Zogbia, Agbonlahor or Bent as quickly as a specialist 'no. 10' would; thirdly, his work-rate and determination to find form has been underwhelming to put it politely. Agbonlahor has started the season very well operating in the same role on the other side of the pitch but his work ethic is always evident and ensures he makes a contribution even when out of form.

We knew we were getting a different type of player in N'Zogbia and McLeish will no doubt have to decide what is the best way to manage him. Personally, I would take him out of the side for a couple of games and let him try and make an impact in the last twenty minutes of matches to re-discover last season's form. Albrighton's exquisite cross for the second goal on Saturday was easily the best we have seen from any Villa player this season and we shouldn't be afraid to freshen things up. With Heskey limping off, hopefully we will also see Jenas or Ireland brought in to add a little more fluidity which would help as well.

But overall, our formation isn't the problem and shouldn't be preventing N'Zogbia from playing well - the player needs to dig himself out of this rut and, in all fairness, I think he will.

All I can say is please do that every week Stan!

Rode our luck, Everton were the better team and had the greater possession, but two two great goals and we come away with a great point - and one which I would've been happy to settle for beforehand.

I know it's the same scoreline as in this fixture last year, but it could easily be viewed in a different light. Back in April, Everton's season was drawing to a comfortable close and we got two goals out of very little to put ourselves in front. We couldn't hold out for the win but it was a decent result all the same. Everton HAD to come out and take the game to us today after their dismal start to the season and they put us under a lot of pressure, going in front twice. I don't think we would've clawed our way back on two occasions last season under Houllier so hopefully the fact that we have done so today - whilst never really putting together any prolonged spells of pressure or moving the ball fluidly - is a sign that the team in mentally and physically getting stronger under McLeish (props also to the manager for making the changes he did). Like others have said, there seems like there is a lot of work to be done in order to get the team creating more (maybe Jenas will add a little more composure in vital areas in this regard), but this is a good result.

Great goal from Stan, and outstanding work from Gabby both in the build-up to his goal and the finish - a classic striker's goal. Well done to Marc Albrighton for also putting in probably the best cross we've seen from a Villa player this season.

Is McLeish getting the best out of Darren Bent? And does McLeish understand what the player can do? Ive not seen any evidence so far since McLeish took over to suggest he does. Yet this is what Houllier had to say;

“Bent’s goal ratio speak for itself and he’s a good man too,” said Houllier. “I think he will improve because he listens. If you give him a few tips and a few details he’ll try to get on to that.

“His movement is outstanding. If you press the red button when you watch Sky to follow the movement of a player then you should watch Bent because he gives a lesson to other strikers. It shows what a centre-forward can do during a game and he’s very good at it.

“I think he’s improved since he’s been at Villa. He’s more aware of his duties, he’s not just a fox in the box.

“The way he links with the other players and his movement.

“What I like about him is he can play as a holding striker and sometimes he can go in between the defenders, drop deep, run towards goals and push forward.”

Houllier also believes Villa are yet to see the best of Cameroon international midfielder Jean Makoun who arrived with Bent in the January transfer window.

And the former claret and blue boss reckons the coming season will be an important one for the club’s young guns, especially Fabian Delph and Gary Gardner.

“They also have Jean Makoun and they haven’t seen what he can do because he was injured at the end of the season and he is also going to be an asset,” said Houllier.

Birmingham Mail.

Bent looks exactly the same as he did last season - often isolated for long stretches, some decent link play, the odd bad touch, and crucially still as sharp as ever in front of goal. Bent is the kind of player that performs more or less the same no matter which manager or what style of play the team adopts.

If anything, when I think about just how isolated and uninvolved he was during the home games in the second half of last season such as Fulham, Wolves, Newcastle, Wigan and Liverpool, the system we've started with this season so far seems to suggest he's more involved with our general play and linking with the other forwards.

So, sorry but no opportunity for further pro-Houllier McLeish-bashing here.

Didnt Eck get 3 results off Houllier last season at sha when Houllier had a lot better players at his disposal

Correct, and this time last year we were beating off the the likes of Crawley Town to sign Pires, now we're getting proper PL players like Jenas.

The club is now in safer hands IMHO

Whilst I agree the Club is in safer hands now, that's a bit unfair considering he pulled off the best transfer in our recent history with Darren Bent. Getting Kyle Walker in on loan was a smart piece of business as well - I'm sure he would've bought him if that option was there.

Houllier would not have been successful here though, no matter how long he was given to implement his methods.

Good post above..

Houllier is like a 5 star hotelier going to run a 2 star hotel..He has the 5 star standards and can deliver the 5 star service...But unfortunately the old existing staff were too set in their ways of not cleaning the toilets properly or changing sheets properly...Yet Houllier could train the new recruits and young college staff how to change the sheets and clean the toilets but the old timers could never grasp it.. And unfortunately the 5 star Hotelier was never going to drop his standards and say its ok to not clean toilets or change sheets properly..He would continue with his standards and drill it into the old staff that he wants a 5 star service..

Gotta love the irony of all the analogies you could've chosen with which to equate Houllier, you went for one that includes the word 'toilet' three times.

I'm a bit baffled by the people saying we have depth at Right back!

Why? I've got no qualms about playing Chris Herd there in Hutton's absence, and Cuellar is also perfectly capable if McLeish wants to use him that way. Lichaj is fine too.

Compared to the days when Martin O'Neill's choice was between Mellberg and Reo-Coker, the right-back position is certainly not one I'm worried about this season.

but as it stands AM has proved nothing so far and it says alot when his own employers who have just given him a bumper contract refuse to back him

I don't think its a case of them refusing to him because they don't rate his judgment or because of anything he has or hasn't done since taking the job - more a case of him being selected in the first place as someone who would be more content to work under those kind of restrictions, which it now seems evident they were planning to implement for some time.

Some fans knock the Man City line up in the FA Cup, without even realising why he chose that line up..Some fail to see the game was huge opportunity to try out some other players in the squad like Bradley out..The game was a competitive game where he could try out other players in the squad without it risking losing more points in a league game..He was expanding his squad and choices. He needed to see who else could step up if needed..The whole season was being used to build Villa for future...It was a transition season.

The Man City line-up was down to the fact that Houllier didn't think any team he put out could win the game and was content to save senior players for the league rather than make any attempt to compete. It was waving the white flag of surrender before the players even took to the field and that was the day I finally lost all patience with him. There was absolutely no need to rest players that, at the time, had only one other fixture to play within three weeks. It was nothing to do with the future. Many of the players had played before and we know the ones who have promise and those that are plainly not good enough. It was a disgraceful show of contempt for the Club and the supporters, especially those that paid to go up there. Any manager that doesn't believe Aston Villa are able to compete for the FA Cup, or that any trophy should not be treated as a priority, does not deserve to be in the job, simple as.

GH made some **** ups, he also got us playing decent football,

One can only imagine you don't go to the games because for those of us that do, I can promise you there was precious little of this good football you speak of. We created very little, players were out of position, Bent was just as isolated and we were an absolute shambles at the back. Had he have stayed, I don't think any of these things would've changed.

I don't think anyone on here 'hates' Makoun - but at the moment a lot of people remain unconvinced by his ability to play a part for this team.

Ive been away from here for a bit and have been catching up on a few debates, though still keeping full interest on football.

It seems to me a few are getting a bit to carried away with whats happening at our football club, like were the only club tightning our purse strings. selling our best players, losing fans........?

Get a grip lads, look outside the box.

Newcastle.

Everton.

Arsenal.

Just some of the clubs suffering at the moment, no money, lossing best players not wanting to bring in others. I look at these teams and think we are not doing to badly as a club. Look at Arsenal, they are a bigger more successful team than us yes, but are still selling there best players and finding it hard to replace them or release any big trasfer money. Newcastle, well who would want to be a fan of there's at the moment. I look at how people slate Lerner, not speaking, spending lots, and think, my god if any of you were Newcastle fans you would be commiting suicide by now with M Ashley's input into the club.

So on a whole I am feeling postitive about our club and seriously not sure (apart from a thin team) where all this negativity is coming from. I read one post, now we may have sold L Young and I quote, ("This board is an absolute joke and anyone who thinks that they care about the club and not the money is delu") you know who you are, 80% of the Owners are exactly the same, get a grip and lets start supporting our club come rain or shine. UTV

Be careful - talking that kind of sense is likely to influence the more impressionable on here to start looking at things with some perspective.

Good post. Sometimes you really are better off with the devil you know.

Would've liked to see him coming off our bench - seems a bit of a shame but hopefully the extra experience will do him good.

It seems to me that the same people who don't rate Petrov, don't rate Makoun.

Personally, I don't think that they understand how important players like these two are for a team and what they offer.

Personally I think that is a sweeping generalisation that probably isn't accurate.

I can't speak for anyone else but I'm almost never crticial of Petrov and value his contribution to the club and the team. Yet I remain unconvinced about Makoun.

Throw me in the same boat as Trent. Petrov for me as things stand is one of the first names on the team sheet but Makoun as yet to do anything like convince me he is suited to this league.

Add me to this - until we sign a player like Scott Parker, Petrov has to start. He guides players like Delph, Makoun and Bannan through games and though he can frustrate me a lot of the time, he remains very important. I wouldn't regard him as a Captian Marvel type but he exhibits the closest thing we have to leadership too - another reason why he has to continue starting games.

Wow, some of the opinions in here are scary.

Be it writing off Makoun after 7 games or saying he is not a Premier League type of player. The fact that we aren't basing our team around a player like Makoun is why we have been unable to break down rubbish teams at home consistently. Flair players or midfielders who are able to pick a pass are as rare around VP as a fan who doesn't moan.

Not writing him off as such. Just wondering what he offers to the team other than a quick short five yard pass that our other midfielders (Petrov, Delph, Ireland, Bannan) can all complete.

All of these other players mentioned have other attributes that Makoun has not shown as of yet which has worried me about him.

I think it is different as he doesn't touch then pass, he just passes and this is a distinct difference.

The reason being is that split second is the difference between the defender being set to defend or still awkwardly standing or not correctly standing, allowing Bent to get in and that 1 yard ahead. I think that's Makoun gives us or his ability can give us eventually that our other midfielders can't.

The problem with this argument is that Makoun rarely looks to make that kind of killer pass - he is more adept at moving the ball sideways or nudging into the feet of more advanced midfield players. I can't think of any defence-splitting passes he's made since he arrived, with the exception of putting Young through against Wolves at VP in March when he went on to hit the bar.