Grunthos

Obviously an excellent effort by the team. Lots of energy, great teamwork.

Some thoughts on what was addressed this evening:

“Carlos Cuellar is shite”

Well, no. You can’t seriously make this claim. The man is an excellent, excellent 1v1 defender. He has the strength and pace to cope with any forward at this level.

“Carlos Cuellar should be a regular starter for us long-term”

I can’t agree with this end, either. His passing is abysmal. Highly competent when the play is clear and the ball is in front of him, he too often fails when he is asked to defend in a scramble. An excellent #3 center back, but not a first XI guy where we’re trying to go.

“Brad Friedel ought to be replaced by Guzan sooner rather than later”

Um, no. Reports of Friedel’s demise are greatly exaggerated.

“We should play 4-5-1 regularly”

At least when we’re talking about the 4-5-1 we saw tonight, no. This was an excellent call for this type of game, against a classier opponent on the road. We saw some really impressive defensive midfield play, with NRC, Petrov, and Sidwell covering for each other in an energetic dance that may not be considered the beautiful game, but certainly brought its own charm. But… those same three players are too erratic in the offensive half to allow us to play this way all the time. This was a 1-1 game, but we got the benefit of an OG and a stupid, stupid tackle by Gerrard in the box. Aside from that relative good fortune, we just weren’t any kind of serious threat in the attacking third for most of the match.

“Vindication for Martin O’Neill”

Not quite. The team he has assembled so far has a limited ceiling. Most every player we fielded tonight has some significant flaw that holds them back from consistent success. Petrov doesn’t have enough pace in transition to dictate play as a Gerrard, Fabregas, or Lampard can. Sidwell’s inconsistency has been remarked upon elsewhere. Agbonlahor never has developed truly top-flight technique. NRC’s enthusiasm remains a double-edged sword. Cuellar I discussed above. The team still lacks elements of class that are needed if we want to enjoy this kind of result on a week in, week out basis.

“Liverpool are a bunch of precious prima donnas with no shame”

Absolutely spot on. Couldn’t agree more.

At what point would you start to re-think your position on Martin O'Neill?

For my own part, I re-think it all the time. But my position hasn't changed much over the first three years. I don't think much of what MON has done during that time has been particularly surprising. His tactical preferences are what I expected to see given his past record, his transfers have been solid but (Young excepted) not particularly brilliant, and the team has progressed to where I figured it would be (in general) at this stage.

I think what you are asking is, at what point does my hope that he can lead us to the promised land die? Well, that won't be dead in two weeks regardless of what personnel do or do not arrive. I'm not sure where the breaking point would be, but it would involve one of the following elements:

- Anything resembling a relegation battle beyond October.

- As blandy says, the departure of core players under most any circumstances (barring silly money offers from the sheiks that would allow the club to reinvest in even better talent)

- If it becomes clear (and I don't believe it yet has) that MON thinks certain combinations of tactics and personnel are the best he can do, when in fact they aren't good enough. My biggest worry on this score over the last two years has been a pervasive sense that O'Neill will continue to try to play a direct, fast-paced game without procuring defenders, especially fullbacks, who can pass the ball. I've had to suspend judgement on that one because of the profound delay in procuring any fullbacks at all. But there are equivalent concerns that could arise in midfield and up front. Many others on this board have decided they know that MON is a failure in one or more of these areas, but I just don't see that the evidence is there to support such a conclusion, yet. Should we reach that point... yes, then I'll be "re-thinking" my position.

How far does your support go at a critical time in our (and other teams') chase for the top 4?

I understand this question to mean: given the oil money flowing into the game, do I feel that we need to be faster on the trigger with our manager to keep pace? Does our quest for the top end limit my patience? I do not believe that this is a critical time in that sense, and so I will not cut this manager, or any manager, less slack to support some misguided sense of crisis.

What does Martin have to do (or not do) before you begin allowing yourself to think 'Hold on a second Martin sort it out'?

Apart from engineering another extended losing streak, the main thing that might bring me up short would be his particular choice of player, should he acquire a 'signature' transfer. So far, he has stuck to making strong bids for good-but-not-great players who fit his desired system. If he splashed out really big money (and in the current market, we're talking 20M plus), and bought a player who didn't expand the squad's range of talent... then I'd be seriously looking at running up the white flag.

Football isn't nearly as complicated as you suggest

If it weren't as complicated as gmvillan suggests, Wimbledon would be one of the Big 4.

Good Lord, yes.

Well said, sir.

My experience was very similar to leviramsey's, except that I actually thought that supporting a club with a "history of success but wasn't that successful of late and was unlikely to be relegated anytime soon" would allow me to support Sheffield Wednesday (in 1996) and then Leeds United (in 1999). Silly me. So Villa have been my third choice, and it's completely been a "third time's the charm" situation. But in retrospect, it was also a choice I was looking to make and yet couldn't. Which is a due to a personal quirk.

For me, while I won't bandwagon and choose a team that is currently successful, it's not so much a case of hating glory-hunting. I wouldn't feel like the team's narrative was my own to enjoy. Joining in after the team has achieved success means that I wasn't a part of that achievement, even in the virtual sense that a fan enjoys. But then, I also can't commit to a team in the way that many do, where I will love them unconditionally. I'll love them and care about them if they lose, that's part of the territory. What I won't tolerate is bad management. Which is why I dodged the Villa in 1996, in 1999, and again when Leeds went down in 2003 and I was left stranded. There was no way I would root for a club run the way Doug Ellis ran this one. I jumped on board as soon as Randy and Martin took over, and that was about as ideal a chance as I will ever get, smart management but absolutely no guarantees of success. But if this ownership is succeeded by the equivalent of John Ashley and Dennis Wise, well, at the very least I'll become dormant, and stop watching the games.

When I go to a soccer bar here in the DC area, I am invariably the only Villa fan present. Or so it seems; I haven't the extra money to invest in replica kit or other such frivolities, and I'm not the type to scream out at every goal... maybe there are other Villans there who are also laying low? But on those few occasions where my affiliation is recognized, it is met with confusion instead of derision. Most, I think, cannot fathom *not* bandwagoning... or if they won't bandwagon, then they choose to follow Fulham (because of Fulham's frequent investment in US national team players).

It's a strange path. But I'm enjoying it tremendously.

Thanks for responding, General. Best wishes for your father's health, old age is a hard fight even for the toughest soldiers!

General,

First off, may I add myself to the list of those amazed by how well Randy and the board run this club. Aston Villa is now a top-class organization, one of the best in sport. Thank you!

While we are paying attention to NOTW, this article indicates the Premier League is (unsurprisingly) taking action against illegal internet feeds of live matches. In and of itself, I have no problem there - these are pirated streams, what do the website proprietors expect, love and kisses? However, as a US resident with no cable subscription (and no need for one except in pursuit of the Villa), I find myself in the same boat as many other fans around the world: if we want to watch the games, we often have no option but to search for a dodgy stream from, say, Singapore. I subscribe to Setanta's broadband service, but that only gets me perhaps a third of Villa's matches... otherwise it's off to the free, low-quality, illegal feed sites. Or, in many cases, I have to give up and miss the game.

Are you aware of any serious discussions or efforts on the part of the league, the FA, or within AVFC to work toward positive solutions for global fans, i.e. providing broadband subscription services through club websites or through the league's broadcast partners? Right now, it seems that the league is content to rely on their existing, exclusive arrangements with TV and cable providers, while ignoring any potential for capturing internet revenue. There's a large worldwide market that Premier League clubs could be accessing with decend broadband subscription services, but so far the message is, "Overpay for cable! And if your country's providers don't give you decent Premier League coverage, tough!"

Twenty years down the line, cable TV will be obsolete. I am well aware that internet broadcasting presents problems and issues, but they need to be tackled if clubs want to serve and grow the fan base. Are there plans or discussions within AVFC as to how to deal with internet video? Are you hearing anything from the league other than, "protect our existing partners' rights?"

Thanks again, for your attention and your tireless efforts on behalf of the club!

RIP Gareth. Shouldn't be too hard to do on the Scousers' bench. After all, what could be more restful than watching your pal Stevie G play right wing? Just don't pay any attention to Torres, and you'll be all right.

Oh, and that bit about never walking alone? You might be thinking about taking advantage of that sentiment, but I would suggest instead focusing on the attractions of never walking at all. Especially with splinters stuck in the back of your thighs.

Condolences to the fam, and all that.

OK, I just watched the match. That was crap. Having got that out of the way...

And to attract the players to be good enough, to get some consistency, we need European football.

John, you keep claiming this. It simply isn't true. Europe makes it easier, no argument there. But it is not the only factor.

I really don't follow the sentiment (expressed by you and many others) that the club's position is somehow precarious, that if we don't secure Europe now!, if we don't grab the ultra-best players now!, then everything is just going to collapse into mediocrity. This club is much, much more resilient than that. Indeed, Villa would never have survived the Ellis years without that resilience.

I don't think Barry and Bouma are leaving, and I don't think we're going to have zero impact signings this summer... but even if all of that comes to pass, we will be fine!

This ownership group is *obviously* not stupid, and they *obviously* have significant financial resources. Maybe Randy can spend 50 million this summer, or maybe he can only afford 20. Maybe Barry and Bouma will be back, or maybe we'll be working to integrate a new core. One thing is absolutely clear: DOUG ELLIS ISN"T IN CHARGE OF THIS CLUB ANYMORE. Why keep floundering in unwarranted despair, as if he were still running the show? None of this was ever going to come easily.

I just cannot see the basis for thinking that "back to square one" has any chance of being a reasonable description of our condition come September.

That's overly harsh, shortshady. I thought it captured the mood rather well.

I'm really unclear on Alex McLeish's career plan here.

1. Manage Rangers.

2. Manage Scotland, bringing them out of the wilderness and back into the respectable ranks of competitive international football.

3. Take out a rusty knife and commit ritual career suicide, bleeding all over the St. Andrews cross in the process, by taking the Sty job, apparently for the sole benefit of being able to list "Premier League manager" on his resume, if only for a six month span.

4. ???

5. Profit!

Have I got it right?

General, the professionalism, dedication, and intelligence of Randy's management team continues to impress at every turn. Yesterday's VP was an impressive sight and sound, and it will only get better! Please enjoy your day off - the progress so far is amazing in itself and you deserve the break.

I had two scouts sitting next to me and both remarked after the game that they were "unaware that Villa had so much speed."

I rather got the impression that Jose Mourinho was also surprised. Chelsea seemed to think they could beat us for pace at both ends, and it just wasn't going to happen for them.

All I can say at this point is: Those of you who argue that the sky is falling, that MON is a clueless fool, and that the club is purely treading water on the pitch... well, you're being very selective with your evidence. And the next couple of years will bear that out. I, for one, am not going to spend my time pissing into the tide trying to convnce the lemmings otherwise.

Are things perfect? No. But the club is in good hands. On and off the pitch.

Yes, it's obvious that we're done signing quality players. The transfer window is actually over. Other clubs move quickly because they are sharper than us, couldn't possibly be because they aren't doing their due diligence in the recruitment or negotiation processes. O'Neill is refusing to sign players that have jumped to other clubs out of sloth, stupidity, and inexperience. The club has seen no improvement in squad quality over the last 12 months - I mean, who would seriously trade a group of overaged and/or unmotivated and/or mediocre players [baros, Hendrie, Djemba-Djemba, Angel, Hughes, McCann, and Samuel] for younger and/or better talents[Petrov, Young, Carew, Maloney, Reo-Coker, and Harewood]?

I've suggested this in prior posts, but I'll make a bald statement here: Villa fans as a whole have the psychology of abused children. The mismanagement of the club for over two decades has left many of you without any capacity for trust. If things aren't going perfectly, then the abuse must be returning. If promises aren't kept immediately, now, now, now!, then faith has been broken. Bill Simmons, after surveying the league supporters last year, called Villa's "the most miserable, self-loathing fan base in the Premier League." Despite massive positives, y'all continue to live up to that reputation.

Now, as has been noted elsewhere, it's not as if you don't have the right, and it's not as if you don't have good reason - Deadly Doug kept me away from this club for several years despite a complete lack of serious alternatives, so I sympathize as much as I can for someone who wasn't actually suffering through the rot. But... the negativity on this board is getting poisonous at times. I suppose there's nothing to be done at this point except wait for the management to prove you wrong, if they can. If you can't stop viewing every piece of news in its most negative light, then taking a step back and being less passionate for a while might be a very good idea.

You know, people really need to get a grip.

I'm no great fan of Harewood - I think he's properly placed as a squad player at this level. But there are two things about this transfer that make it something of a coup for us:

1. Strikers who can play a power game, score some goals, *and* have decent pace for the Premier League level do not grow on trees. While Harewood doesn't have all the attributes required to be a top shelf starter, he is not devoid of important talents.

2. We just brought in those talents AS A BACKUP TO CAREW. This, IMO, was the second-hardest task facing MON this summer (right back is #1). We are basing our attack around Big John, and we need someone similar to deputize if (when) he gets injured or when the fixtures come too close together. Harewood is about the best you could ask for in this regard. He has similar capabilities (without the flair, admittedly, but what do you want exactly?), he has scored at this level of play, he's under 30, and he didn't cost the moon.

For those of you who think this reflects badly on the club's ambition, I ask you: if we're willing to lay out 4 million for a solid backup, what do you think we're going to see within the next six weeks as we fill out the starting squad?

Many Villa fans appear to be unable to place trust in MON's acumen after so many years of threadbare management at Villa Park. He would have to be a total idiot to let a half-dozen squad members depart from a thin squad and then not bring in as many or more replacements. Of which Harewood, it appears, will be one. I'm not excited by Harewood, but not every signing has to be Ronaldinho.

My word to the panicky would be, "U turn if you want to."

O'Neill being sure of his targets probably won't equate to everything happening in July, at least in this instance. We have too many players to buy. Even if we acquired (for example) NRC, Taylor, Douglas, and Kightly in the next two weeks, that would still leave us looking for a striker, a right back, and at least one other squad player.

But I agree in general, no reason to expect MON to rush each deal. I think we'll only see NRC within the next 10 days.

Liverpool have slapped a £12million price tag on the unsettled striker

Too much. Too much by a good sight, with his baggage.

Maybe his Mrs was horrified by the prospect of five more years in Portsmouth.

I can't see either why people yourself included can't diverge the happenings on the field from what's happening off it.

Whilst I accept they impinge on each other neither is completely dependent on the other.

It's not clear to me where any serious poster here has shown an inability to diverge on-field and off-field happenings. You keep working yourself up with false dichotomies, to wit:

- If one is not hopping mad and blaming only the manager about the team tactics used to date,

- If one thinks that the transfers of the last nine months have better than no value,

- If one believes that the club was not in a position to play well this year regardless of manager appointed

... then one must be hopelessly, stupidly blinded by a halo of MON invincibility. You erect this straw man, paint many posters (deserved or not) as adherents of this extreme view, attack it vigorously and sometimes viciously, and then wonder why people get (rhetorically) upset.

I find your last post quite reasonable. MON does have to prove that he can take this club where we want it to go, and he has not proven that to date. I don't find his on-field choices to date necessarily stupid or uneconomical or lazy or uninformed or narrow-minded or favoritist or whatever, but that doesn't mean that I think his on-field choices have been brilliant. There's a lot of work to be done here. It's possible that he'll fail miserably. It's possible that he'll only be a partial success, and that someone else will have to take up the reins and carry the team to the top.

The surface euphoria isn't nearly as much of a problem as you are making it out to be. It's really that simple.

You see Malcolm, whilst I disagree with alot of that post, your sentiments and reasoning are clear. Many of your other posts have been diluted with sly digs and sweeping statements which don't make clear what the reason for your position is.

Yes, much of the disagreement around here appears to be based on poor rhetoric (on the part of many posters, not just Malcolm).

I've not got the time or inclination to delve through the internet to find quotes on managers who have had similar quotes and then ruined a club, but I'm sure from Villa memories many remember all those who backed, Taylor, Turner, McNeil, with much the same exhortations most of you are above.

Nor should you. No one is asking you to, because we are all aware that many managers start off poorly because they are poor managers. Most of those gentlemen haven't won trophies and haven't achieved success with previous clubs, either.

Have you ever considered taking any argument in the spirit in which it is offered, rather than reading it in the least charitable light and then attacking it on that basis? My sole point was that you were overreaching (again, rhetorically) by insinuating that the team's poor record to date means we should all be attacking MON for incompetence. Most of us don't agree that the current gameday evidence actually indicates incompetence, but I can see where you're coming from in terms of watching the team perform on the pitch.

It took a while for Bobby Robson to establish himself at Ipswich. His first two seasons were a case of staying up.

In January 1975, Clough made a quick return to management with Nottingham Forest, who at the time were a Second Division side. A year later he was joined by his old assistant Taylor. They transformed the club's fortunes and the first success at the club came in Clough's second full season (1976-77) when they won promotion to the First Division.

Revie was made player-manager in March 1961 at Leeds. Although his tenure didn't get off to a flying start...

Herrera rejoined Stade Français for a third time now as manager. After three seasons with no trophies collected, the club's president opted to sell the franchise. Herrera moved to Spain, where he spent the next six years in minor stints with Real Valladolid, Atlético Madrid, CD Málaga, Deportivo de La Coruña and Sevilla FC, before entering a two year tenure with Lisbon side CF Os Belenenses. Later returning to Spain, he managed giants FC Barcelona, but several problems, including disagreements between him and star player Ladislao Kubala obliged him to leave the club in 1960.

Rijkaard had a disappointing start at Barcelona that saw some sections of the club's fans call for his resignation, and he drew flack from the media when the team lost to Real Madrid in December 2003. Rijkaard's resilience won through and from 2004 onwards, he achieved a massive turnaround, as the team went from strength to strength.

[benitez's] first season in charge of Liverpool was as inconsistent as it was glorious. The Reds' stuttering form in the Premiership was offset by progress in the Champions League. Liverpool would confound the critics in going on to lift the trophy for the fifth time... Benitez's men put in an inept first half display, trailing 3-0 atthe break - a scoreline which was kind to the Premiership team. The manager then made up for his error in team selection by bringing on Dietmar Hamann in place of Steve Finnan to great effect.

Ferguson's intention to leave an Old Trafford legacy got of to a slow start as his attempts to rescue United from the troubled state in which Ron Atkinson had left the club faltered. Ferguson initially appeared to have left his success in Scotland and after three years in the job, despite finishing second behind Liverpool in 1988, chants of 'Fergie out' could be heard emanating from the Old Trafford terraces. But behind the scenes Ferguson was rebuilding the club in minute detail. He had revamped the youth system, a move that would pay huge dividends a few years down the line, and he had stamped out the drinking culture at Old Trafford by shipping out many of the crowd's favourites.

(selections from Soccernet and Wikipedia, for convenience)

We keep trying to get across the idea, but apparently you're unwilling to receive it. A losing record and a difficult stretch in the first managerial year is not proof, nor even necessarily a strong indication, that the manager is incompetent or mediocre or limited or handicapped or whatever. It is no more reasonable to ignore the existing limitations on O'Neill's tenure to date (the transfer window, the revamping of club staff, the middling-at-best talent on hand to start with) than it is to ignore the problems we are seeing on the pitch (Agbonlahor, set piece defending, inconsistency).

Sorry, Malcolm, but your view is unjustifiably negative. The rest of us will continue to wait until we have clearer signs, instead of giving up on this manager and this board so quickly.

I'll believe that when I see it. Just because Beckham got the huge money deal, doesn't mean that every other MLS club is ready to pony up for aging European stars at the present moment.