PB

It's been a long time since I wanted a player to make it as much as I want this one to. Don't know why, just something about the boy

I'm not ron's biggest fan. This club has a long tradition of excellent center backs and I don't think vlaar is in the class of what went before. A good world cup in a back 3 doesn't change that. However, selling him at this moment would be a very bad decision. He represents all the meagre leadership we have

But compared to the names JulieB mentioned they were not known hot prospects, which was the point he was making.

For example Gareth Bale was wanted by spurs and manchester united and went for big money.

Theo was one of the hotest prospects in football at the time he moved to arsenal.

Comparing our signings to the ones she mentioned is pointless.

Right, but Gareth Bale is an interesting case isnt he, because for his first, 2 years at Spurs he was a total joke player. Everyone used to really take the piss. He played 24 games for Spurs in those 2 years without ending up on the winning side even once. I can imagine that Spurs fans were thinking at the time that was £7m totally down the toilet.

BUt, the key thing I guess is that at the time he was a teenager, and teenagers with talent will grow if given time and nurturing. So I guess those writing off Lambert's kids after a few months might like to look to the example of Gareth Bale. if you spend decent money on decent prospects there is always a good chance you will end of with a prized asset as long as you handle him right

Tancredi Palmeri ‏@tancredipalmeri

Aston Villa contacted Inter to ask about Coutinho. No bid made, but has been mentioned a possible 10m € offer

JESUS CHRIST

The guy is an Italian TV Correspondent....

I'm sorry for dreaming but if we got Coutinho then we would be onto a winner.... the attacking talent we crave!

3 goals in 21 for Inter, but we'll let him off because he's only a kid (20) and clearly has room to grow.

Im just a bit puzzled as to how people are raving about him, when he's been nothing but a bit part player since coming to Europe. I will confess to not having watched him play, but as he's only played five games this season I dont suppose Im on my own.

So whats the big deal? At 10m Euros he seems the right kind of price, assuming he is really worth "wetting your pants over", or whatever the saying is. is it just because he's a Brazilian playing (occasionally) for inter? Does that make him brilliant by default?

but they were also considered hot prospects at the time

bennett, lowton and bowery, nobody had heard of them

Really?

One of them is an England U-21 player. I would imagine the England U-21 team is a fairly good place to start looking for hot prospects, although I accept that lots fo them dont make it.

Lowton, who has p[played just about every game this season, is proof perhaps that you dont need to be a name. I think he looks like a Premiership standard player to me, he is certainly (imo anyway) the best full back at the club and we have three full international full backs

PB I get your point but we also have a sizeable income to pay for the ongoing wage costs so it's not imperative that there is a re-sale value at the end of the contract.

The issue of sustainability is more about having a manageable cost (mainly wage) income ratio so that we can make an operating profit.

Yeah, I know, but the point remains. Spending £10m plus massive wages on a player of Lescott's age would be madness, and repeating the mistakes we have made so many times in recent years. Is he really *that* good? Yes, he is alot better than our current defence but frankly thats not saying very much.

At half the price he'd be a steal. On loan he'd be absolutely great, take your hand off

£10m plus £60k per week? I just think its a shocking waste of money, when there are surely much better deals to be had

. I think you are struggling to see the wood for trees. Here's how it works, good players win games, winning games generates money. Money used to make the team better and so on.

We're not exactly signing up the 'masters' team. We''re linked with a quality experienced player in a position were crying out for.

But surely you can see they dont generate as much money as they cost? If they did, we'd be rolling in cash. Yeah, you can get away with the odd one if you are incredibly lucky, but I dont see the point in spending all that money on Lescott when there are similar players five or six younger that we could get for the same sort of money if we looked a bit harder. Its not like lescott is a brilliant player - yes he would improve us, of course, but is he really worth such an astronomical cost?

I know he's just signed a new contract so will be going nowhere, but if we were talking about £10m or even £15m for Shawcross I'd be all over it like a rash. Five years younger, and to be honest, quite a bit better.

Exactly and it seems to be because of Lerner.

When Doug included wages when talking about how much spent he was mocked and laughed at.

Now we don't want a player if it might cost Lerner a bit on wages. Now we seem to really care about these extra costs when defending the amount of backing the manager gets.

Slightly different, don t you think?

Doug would say, we're going to spend £20m this summer with the specific intention of misleading the fans to think he meant on transfer fees. Then he'd spend £6m, and then claim he meant to include wages in the figure, sorry if he didnt make that clear.

But when you are trying to rationally discuss the cost of a player, you have to include his wages, for one very simple reason. Wages are the real cost.

Again, I would have thought that fans of this club would just understand that after what we've been through. Another major reason that we are where we are is stupid wage offers to the likes of Given, Dunne and a whole army of others. But look, if it doesnt suit your argument, go ahead and ignore it. Pretend we can just go out and pay any amount of wages. But really, we all know a free transfer on a 5 year contract at 60k per week costs £15m, exactly the same as a player who costs £9m in transfers on 40k a week for 3 years. If they both get sold for £10m at the end of their contracts we havent made a profit on either - they have still both cost us £5m each.

Money from finishing higher in the league. Improved money through sponsorship, merchandise sales and other avenues when your team is performing better.

Do we not have the 7th highest income in the league? There really should be only a handful of clubs that can easily out spend us.

We seem to have accepted Lerner's lack of spending as some sort of realistic place where this club should be.

We couldn't continue the spending under MoN but signing the odd player like Lescott and replacing them a few years later shouldn't be a massive issue for us.

Not at all.it has nothing to do with ambition, and I think you know that really

Look, Id say to lambert go out, find a £10m centre back if thats what you want. Pay him £60k a week if thats what he wants. Spend £20m if you like, the amount is unimportant

On this condition

Make as sure as you can be that during his time here he improves us as team, and himself as an individual, and we will get a resale value on him that represents value.

Whats the problem with that? Surely that makes a million times more sense than throwing money away

I don't think anyone would ever argue that we need better value for money than NRC.

That doesn't mean that experienced quality players can't come under this category.

IU absolutely agree. Its just Lescott is too old for the money. It would be dead money. get him in on loan by all means, hes axactly what we need, but buy him? no thanks

I thought football was about winning games.

Yes, of course.

But what have we learned form the last 20 years since we last challenged for the title?

Its not about winning just the next game, or winning for a short time, its about building a team that can win in a sustainable way.. This kind of short term signing is suicidal.

We cant go on spending big money on short term signings, our football club and its current state is proof positive that this strategy doesnt work. If we spend substantial sums of money, it must be on players that we wont lose out on in the long term. We just arent a big or rich enough club to be able to do that. If we carry on doing what we have been for the last 20 years we WILL go down sooner or later, sooner to be honest., it is a totally unsustainable way to run a football club. The only reason we havent gone down already by following this strategy is Randy lerner pumping in £200m, without that we'd have gone 5 years ago. We have to do something different. The post I quoted explains exactly why what we are doing now is the ONLY viable sustainable way to do it.

Im not saying we shouldnt spend big money. I'm not saying we shouldn't pay big wages. Im not saying we shouldnt buy experienced players. But when we do, we have to be as certain as we can that we will get that money back. Why? So we can afford to spend the same amount of money on his replacement. Sending £10m plus wages on lescott is money down the toilet. As a club we will never see that £10m again.

How then do you propose we pay for his replacement in 3-4 years when he leaves? Where will the money come from? Isnt this where we've been? isnt this why we have a team now of kids? Because for the last five years in particular we pissed all our money away on short term signings. I cant believe anyone twho has seen us play this season hinks thats any kind of strategy for our future. Surely we, of all clubs, are walking proof why that simply doesnt work.

We have to do something different or we have no long term future

We made a net loss of £19 million on Reo-Coker for fees and wages. .............

This is what I hope the club's "new philosophy" is all about. It's not about picking a team of lower league players. It's about finding value for money and players that will give everything to succeed at the club, that depend as much on taking the chance the club is giving them as we do on them coming good.

What an absolutely top class, brilliant piece of quality analysis. Well bloody done that man for truth speaking of the highest order

Brad made a bad mistake for Bale's first goal, but otherwise he has been huge. He needs more protection mind, or we might find his confidence getting shot. We cant expect to keep on making 10 saves a half.

But Given? No thanks

He has never recovered from his injury has he? Still, hes only a kid, Him and Ashley are the same age more or less. Loan him out, see if he develops

I hope he gets a start. Playing Holman up front just didnt work

Im going to be honest, I just dont understand how villa fans can take a set of stats and try and make villa look as bad as possible using those stats, and have a go at anyone who tries to see positive things in those figures.

Isnt that a bit weird? is it just me or shouldnt that be the other way around?

I just dont get it. If you feel this way about the club then really,whats the point?

I'll tell you something. The wins at Norwich and Liverpool,which have been trashed on here as us being outclassed or meaningless, are two of the best days Ive had supporting Villa in many years. You know what else? I'm not alone. 3,500 travelled to Swindon on a wet Tuesday. 4500 travelled for hours across foggy England to see us at Norwich and gave one of the best away fan "performances" of the season. You can try and tell them that those games were meaningless if you like, but I can absolutely tell you that every villa fan there had a fantastic night, as we did at Swindon, as we did at Liverpool. Ouclassed? My arse.

Those days we had real pride in our team, a young vibrant, exciting villa team.made up mostly of players we produced ourselves, a proper aston villa team, going to two tough away games and producing massive results, and people on here have the balls to try and make that meaningless because it doesnt suit their arguments to see the truth of it that those who were there know. Those of you trying to make those wins small? Well, its your loss, you are so wrapped up in your misery that you missed out on two absolutely fantastic nights, I loved it, really loved it, was so excited by those games. And thats the way it should be right? Im a Villa fan, I should love us going away to a cup QF and winning. I should love us going to Anfield and winning. Thats part of the bloody job description. Not to sit behind your computer and try and pick holes in it. Whats the point?

Yeah, so things have gone badly wrong last couple of games, and yes that has hurt, but what do you expect? We have been outclassed by two of the best teams in the country .. and yet, for the last 10 mins of the Spurs game the whole Holte (well those who were left) stood as one and supported the team and manager, despite the scoreline. Me? I stand with them. Those of you who want to sit here and wallow in your misery, as I said, its you thats missing out.

One day people will ask you where you were when we were shit. I hope you have a clear conscience when you answer.

And that's not very good either.

And surely if you continue to score less and concede more than everyone else those things that do matter will continue to get worse.

not if you concede all your goals in a handful of matches, and are otherwise very good defensively.

As has been said, its better to lose one game 8-0, than 8 games 1-0

All that maters is points, all the rest is bollocks frankly

You couldn't hve put it any simpler. Even the most optimistic people must surely realise that the worst attack + the worst defence = going down.

Erm, if that was true would we not be bottom? how come we're not bottom? there is something wrong with your equation. We score less than anyone else, and concede more, but somehow four teams have a worse record. Why? I'll give you a clue. for the purposes of the league table, losing 8-0 is more or less the same as losing 1-0, or losing 8-7. What natters is games won, drawn and lost

We've only played 19. Could do that after Wigan

We've played 23,

Comparing the first 19 games of this season with last is perfectly valid. It's called like for like comparison or half year report. It shows we've gone backwards but this is not necessarily all Lamberts fault.

Why dont you compare the first ten games of this season to the second ten, and use that to measure whether or not there has been improvement?

I think we all expected better from Lambert, an initial bounce at least even if you don't think he's the answer long term. Anyone saying they saw the first half of the season being this bad is probably lying.

Search my posts, I said pre-season we would be bottom 3 at Christmas improving in the second half of the season to finish lower mid table.

So for me, we're doing ok, above what I expected really.

frankly anyone who thought Lambert could walk in to this mess and sort it out fast didnt quite understand how deep the mess was that he inherited. I think if you search my posts you will also find I have said that once or twice, too

Well I wasn't one of them. Perhaps though some people could see beyond the scoreline at Anfield. We were outplayed and outclassed for large proportions of that game and if it wasn't for Liverpool's ineffectiveness in front of goal we could have been well beaten by half time. The signs were there even then that not all was right with our team.

You really thought we were outclassed at Anfield?

I rest my case m'lord

I see some people have come out of hiding now we've lost a couple

Its only 2 games lads, nothing to see. If we win tomorrow we will be six points clear of the relegation zone with a run of matches ahead that doesnt look all that terrifying.

of course we might lose, and thats a different situation, but can we please accept that if we win this conversation is more or less dead?

"Inevitably there will be some harsh lessons along the way. Villa conceded four goals to Southampton and five to Manchester City, as well as losing after leading Manchester United 2-0. The current run, which has also brought them a Capital One Cup semi-final against Bradford City, suggests that they are quick learners."

Steve Tongue writing in the \independent before the game yesterday. He's right too. Yesterday was a mismatch. I would predict that if we play them again in February at Wembley it will much, much less of a mismatch. Our players have already shown a great capacity for learning from major setbacks. We should be proud of them, I am

That may be so, but I agree with CI's point that losing your top players affects more than just the technical quality of the squad. Luckily PL seems to have a good scouting setup, so we're better off than we have been for years in that sense. But Bentekkers looks like being a hard player to replace cheaply.

Still, let's just enjoy him. If we do have to sell him one day we can then enjoy fantasising about how the money will be spent.

A club like ours is pretty much always going to lose our top players, thats the market we're in. We are, even at our best, a feeder club for the bigger fish. There is no way of changing that really without altering altogether the way the game is financed. Even a much bigger and more successful club like Arsenal is essentially in the same boat - their best players get snapped up once they have proved themselves.

What we have to do is somehow replace those we lose with players of at least equal ability, and thats very difficult. But its not Lerner's fault, thats just the economics of football today. Not much point moaning about it, just make the most of it when the really good players are with us, usually at the very start or very end of their careers. personally, I'm really glads that I've seen Bentekkers in the flesh for Villa, seen him score a couple of goals, the second one at Swindon will live long in my memory. If we lose him in the summer I wont be surprised, and I wont hold it against him. I hope we dont, but thats just the useless optimist in me :-)

What an odd statement.

Just because Guzan has taken his chance, doesn't make Given shit all of a sudden.

Without Given we may wel not be in this league right now. And if anything is his strength, it's shot stopping.

So yeah, I reckon Given may well have saved that shot from Benteke. It was a good strike, but I do think Reina could have gotten across sooner.

We will have to disagree. Given hasnt been a good signing for us, at all, in any way. He is a bit of a dinosaur keeper. Yeah, great reaction saves, but why does he need to keep making reaction saves? Because his command of the area is non existent, he remains rooted to his line. This is why Guzan has replaced him - because Brad comes for crosses, commands his area, and has much, much better distribution, and is much better with his feet. Given wont be Villa's number one keeper again as long as Brad is here

Could Reina have got across? How much of it did he actually see? Reina is a much better keeper than Shay. I find it ironic that a keeper who has let in the goals that Shay has over the past six or eight months (some real proper shockers) has the balls to criticize another keeper for not saving a difficult snap shot. Thats whats bizarre tbh

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