Jump to content

Rugby: General Chat


MessiWillSignForVilla

Recommended Posts

 

this idea to have an Anglo-French cup instead of Heineken Cup is absolute terrible decision for the sport

 

From a Pro12 point of view, possibly. But from the view of the Premiership and Top14, it'll be much fairer. The Heineken cup currently gives an advantage to the Pro12 teams as they don't have to worry about qualification for the competition and can rest players in the League to save them for Europe. But French and English teams need to get the top half of their domestic league so need to be trying to win every single game. Although this isn't to important towards the start of the season, towards the end when it gets to the quarters, teams in the Pro12 don't need to worry about where they finish in the league (unless it's in the play-offs) so can just concentrate on the Heineken/Amlin, whereas Anglo/French teams need to worry about European qualification, Play-offs and Relegation as well as the Heineken/Amlin, so have to really spread themselves.

 

The ERC refused to budge on the qualification issue, so the RFU and FFR (or whoever made the decisions) have had to force the issue. Pro12 teams will be able to participate still, so it's not as if you'll have the Heineken and this Anglo-French Cup.

 

 

but this was never a problem when English and French teams were dominating ;). Does it really give an advantage as Welsh and Scottish teams always struggle

 

I think an Anglo-French Cup will be bad for ratings as French teams will crush competition and also bad for local businesses as Irish teams bring a big away following and think the Welsh do as well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

this idea to have an Anglo-French cup instead of Heineken Cup is absolute terrible decision for the sport

 

From a Pro12 point of view, possibly. But from the view of the Premiership and Top14, it'll be much fairer. The Heineken cup currently gives an advantage to the Pro12 teams as they don't have to worry about qualification for the competition and can rest players in the League to save them for Europe. But French and English teams need to get the top half of their domestic league so need to be trying to win every single game. Although this isn't to important towards the start of the season, towards the end when it gets to the quarters, teams in the Pro12 don't need to worry about where they finish in the league (unless it's in the play-offs) so can just concentrate on the Heineken/Amlin, whereas Anglo/French teams need to worry about European qualification, Play-offs and Relegation as well as the Heineken/Amlin, so have to really spread themselves.

 

The ERC refused to budge on the qualification issue, so the RFU and FFR (or whoever made the decisions) have had to force the issue. Pro12 teams will be able to participate still, so it's not as if you'll have the Heineken and this Anglo-French Cup.

 

 

but this was never a problem when English and French teams were dominating ;). Does it really give an advantage as Welsh and Scottish teams always struggle

 

I think an Anglo-French Cup will be bad for ratings as French teams will crush competition and also bad for local businesses as Irish teams bring a big away following and think the Welsh do as well

 

 

No, it wasn't much of an issue 5-10 years ago and the English and French teams were more than happy, the main issue though is more to do with the amount of qualification places each country gets, which give a slight advantage to Pro12 teams.

 

The Heineken is currently a 24 team competition, and to qualify you have to either; finish in the top 6 of the Aviva (or win the Anglo-Welsh Cup), finish in the top 6 of the Top14, finish top 3 of the Irish/Welsh teams, or be Scottish/Italian. Which is not fair as only 2 teams from the Pro12 will not qualify. The new proposed format consists of 20 teams (20 in second tier also), and to qualify you have to; finish top 6 in the Aviva/Top14/Pro12, and the last two places are given to the countries of the teams that win the Heineken/Amlin equivalents. Everyone else goes into the second tier competition (with two teams from a third tier, consisting of teams from countries like Romania and Portugal, filling the last two places). A much fairer qualification system.

 

The new competion will not be exclusively English and French, the Pro12 has been invited to join also, a lot of the format is based on the presumption that it will. The French teams probably will crush the competition, as they currently are in the Heineken. It's essentially the Heineken, but without the ERC as they refused to listen to France and England's ideas to make the qualification process fairer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

England get 6 places, France get 6 places , Ireland get 3 places, Wales get 3 places and Scotland and Italy get 2 places. This has nothing to do with qualification; it has to all to do how the money is carved up. France and England spread it between all the teams in the league. The Celtic nations have regions so it is spread amongst fewer teams so the regions are better funded. England and France want a bigger share of the money as they think they are the big draws, the only problem is that more viewers watch games involving Munster and Leinster. The pro 12 have already said it will not join it, it is brinkmanship. You have to look at the bigger picture, if you exclude Italy and one of the Scottish teams from the top level completion how will that affect the 6 nations, surely it is better for Italian players to get some more exposure at the top level which could help the Italian national team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

England get 6 places, France get 6 places , Ireland get 3 places, Wales get 3 places and Scotland and Italy get 2 places. This has nothing to do with qualification; it has to all to do how the money is carved up. France and England spread it between all the teams in the league. The Celtic nations have regions so it is spread amongst fewer teams so the regions are better funded. England and France want a bigger share of the money as they think they are the big draws, the only problem is that more viewers watch games involving Munster and Leinster. The pro 12 have already said it will not join it, it is brinkmanship. You have to look at the bigger picture, if you exclude Italy and one of the Scottish teams from the top level completion how will that affect the 6 nations, surely it is better for Italian players to get some more exposure at the top level which could help the Italian national team.

 

It doesn't have nothing to do with Qualification though. Money is also a big factor in it yes, but I don't really know enough about that side to really comment on it.

 

Where have the Pro12 said they wouldn't join it? I've not seen anything about that so would be interested to read it :) Do you really think if the French and English clubs broke away, the Pro12 teams would keep playing in the Heineken and Amlin? Of course they wouldn't, it'd be a huge waste of time, it'd just be a cup competition for the Pro12. They'd eventually join as I'd imagine the Heineken is the biggest money spinner for the top clubs.

 

Of course most people watch Leinster and Munster, they're two of the best sides in Europe. But outside of those two, teams like Tigers, Quins, Sarries, Saints, Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont and this season Racing Metro are the big draws. Ulster and possibly Cardiff or Ospreys are the only other clubs in the Pro12 that could get close to those teams, but the rest don't even get close. 50% of teams from England and France go into the Heineken, yet last year 90% of Pro12 teams were in it, and you could argue the all round draw of the teams is much bigger in England and France, with teams like Wasps, Stade Francais, Perpingan, and Gloucester failing to qualify for the Heineken.

 

The new format doesn't exclude Italian and Scottish teams either, it forces them to perform well to get into the top European competition, not just exist. That would actually improve Scotland and Italy's national sides, as their teams have to do well at domestic level to compete with the best. Last season Zebre lost every single game, yet they're in the Heineken this year. It's better to reward teams for doing well and forcing them to improve, than sticking them with the big boys and just hoping they improve. Both Scotland and Italy's national sides consist mainly of the players playing for the teams doing well domestically, teams that are improving as they try force their way up the table. Also the better players for both sides play in either France or England. For Scotland and Italy to improve, it is better for them that their clubs earn the right to be in the top European competition and do well domestically first, rather than just being put in their.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Roger Lewis has come out and said the pro 12 teams will not join the break away.  If you want a european competition than you need teams from across Europe.  The Itailian sides have no chance of getting in the top 6 of the pro 12, not unless they pack the teams full of imports from SA and NZ.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Roger Lewis has come out and said the pro 12 teams will not join the break away.  If you want a european competition than you need teams from across Europe.  The Itailian sides have no chance of getting in the top 6 of the pro 12, not unless they pack the teams full of imports from SA and NZ.   

 

I can't find anywhere where Roger Lewis has said they won't join, just that he thinks a new competition shouldn't be considered, and it shouldn't. If the ERC had agreed to change the format of the Heienken to have fairer qualification (and financial payouts, which again, I know little about) then this new competition wouldn't even be considered.

 

Indeed, a European competition needs teams from across Europe, which is why I prefer the new, proposed format which includes a 20 team third tier competition consisting of teams from Romania, Georgia, Portugal, Russia and Spain, with two of the teams qualifying for the second tier.

 

Also, Italian teams do not have no chance of getting top 6 in the Pro12, Treviso finished 7th, four points behind 6th last season, and they only have 5 non-Italian players. They could certainly get into that top 6.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Heineken Cup kicks off tomorrow with Ulster v Tigers on Sky Sports 1 at 8pm (Connacht v Sarries and Toulouse v Zebre on Red Button), and with no Villa to watch, I'll probably try catch all the games, as I don't really care for England that much anymore.

 

Despite my Tigers bias, I reckon Ulster will just about win the first game, Leicester tend to not do too well away from home in Europe. Some other interesting match ups over the rest of the weekend to, personally looking forward to Edinburgh v Munster, Ospreys V Leinster and Racing v Clermont, I reckon they could turn out to be good games. I'm especially looking forward to seeing Racing's new superstar team they built this summer.

 

Watched Bath a couple times this season too, and George Ford looks to have really upped his game, I wasn't overly impressed whilst he was at Tigers, but he's putting some form together that could see him fight for the 10 spot during the six nations, or at least a place in the squad. He's only 20 too so could be fighting with Burns for the spot as future 10 as Flood is getting towards the end of his career now, and the less said about Farrell the better (though he's most likely to inexplicably be nailed on 10 for the next 5-6 years) 

 

 

EDIT: Removed last paragraph, no point for it anymore.

Edited by MessiWillSignForVilla
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Anybody going to the Rugby League World Cup? I am going to the England-Aus, Wales-Italy double header in Cardiff. Plus a opening ceremony all for 20 quid!

FF

 

if your still going beware the Severn Tunnel rail maintenace

 

it's the start of half term, it's Wales v Italy it's England vs Wales and it's the start of Womex Music Festival, so what better time to close the main rail link 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

thought Leinster were very conservative against Castres the other day when they had the game in control but 2 wins from 2 is good start for them in one of toughest pools. 

 

Not sure why they dropped Madigan as I think he's quite good. Ulster have started well too and looked considerably better when Ruan Pienaar came back into the fold.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

thought Leinster were very conservative against Castres the other day when they had the game in control but 2 wins from 2 is good start for them in one of toughest pools. 

 

Not sure why they dropped Madigan as I think he's quite good. Ulster have started well too and looked considerably better when Ruan Pienaar came back into the fold.

 

 

Goppfert is a better 10 that's why Madigan isn't in the side.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like Madigan he has a bit of a self-belief about him you need at no.10 but Gopperth is a good player from what limited games ive seen of him. He is still young and think Gopperth experience is probably winning out at the moment

Link to comment
Share on other sites

think Schmidt(actually typed Kidney 1st time) has faith in him and think will use him as back up to Sexton, hasnt Madigan played centre a few times for LEinster as well so can be an option in there as well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I knew they'd come around eventually...

 

 

 

Heineken Cup: Welsh teams back Anglo-French move

Wales' four rugby regions have backed the Anglo-French plan for a revamped European competition from next season.

Cardiff Blues, Ospreys, Scarlets and Newport Gwent Dragons released a statement via umbrella body, Regional Rugby Wales (RRW).

RRW says some new tournament details need finalising, but added: "It is now clear there are a number of significant advantages to the new competitions."

The Welsh Rugby Union say they are unable to comment at this stage.

Europe's top teams currently compete in the Heineken Cup or second-tier Amlin Challenge Cup.

England's Aviva Premiership clubs and their French Top 14 counterparts announced inJune 2012 their intention to leave the competition organised by European Rugby Cup Ltd (ERC).

ERC is staging a meeting for stakeholders in Dublin on Wednesday but representatives of the English and French clubs are expected to boycott the gathering.

The English and French clubs believe ERC has not made the most of commercial opportunities and that qualification for Europe is skewed in favour of Celtic and Italian teams.

They also believe that tournament funds have not been fairly distributed.

And their contention that Pro12 teams have an unfair advantage in largely not having to battle for European places via that competition has caused simmering resentment for several seasons.

Wales have automatically seen at least three teams enter Europe's top tier, no matter where they finish in the Pro12.

At least three of Ireland's four teams are also guaranteed entry, plus two from each of Scotland and Italy.

The statement read: "Regional Rugby Wales (RRW) on behalf of the four Welsh regions confirms its full support for the proposed new Rugby Champions Cup Competitions.

"Whilst there remain elements of detail to be confirmed, it is now clear that there are a number of significant advantages to the new competitions in equality of governance, format, qualification and distribution across the individual participating clubs.

"Consequently, RRW looks forward to working with the WRU to support their efforts and positive engagement in striving to ensure our teams are involved in strong, valuable European clubs competitions in time for next season."

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24632135

Edited by MessiWillSignForVilla
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Engerland team to play the Aussies looks decent.

 

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Ashton (Saracens), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Lee Dickson (Northampton), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Youngs (Leicester), Dan Cole (Leicester), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Tom Wood (Northampton), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, c), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).

 

Tomkins/Twelvetrees could be a very good partnership. Lawes is in great form too. Plenty of players capable of running rugby.

 

Should be a good game.

 

Really looking forward to how Schmidt sets Ireland up. His Leinster team was outstanding to watch. Unfortunately, Ireland just don't have enough good players. It should be fun though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After last week in Cardiff I'm off to Twickers today to complete the England/Australia double header! Can't wait! Should be a cracker. Wouldn't be surprised to see us get tuned as the Aussie backline looks awesome and I can see them clicking and overwhelming our inexperienced boys. But at the same time, we've got plenty of potential. Who knows.

Gutted that Manu and Corbs are out as they're probably my two favourite players (no homo :) ).

Interested to see Tomkins make his debut after watching his brother last week :). Here's hoping for a reversal of the score line, though!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactly. Correct me if I'm wrong but they picked up a bit towards the end of the Championship as well didn't they? Cooper is back in the team and on form and Folau can be unplayable. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see them both have stormers...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...
Â