Rovers13 Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 It's a tough question to answer because I don't think Jose could do Lamberts job and maybe vice versa. I've noticed a few have Holloway and Di Canio above Steve Bruce for instance, I find that quite frankly rediculous, and I have no idea how good a manager Martinez is. See to me this is a really good point. I think Mourinho is good and flexible enough that he could manage at a lower level, but could you really see AVB doing well in the championship or with a lower premier league team? Or Wenger at this point? I'm not so sure, and I think people always act like managing a top club and winning is doing a better job than managing a bottom dweller and getting mid table, when its not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 (edited) I personally think it is pretty ridiculous having Paul Lambert at 4th, when all he has done is 12th with Norwich and 15th with Villa. I can certainly say he is a prospect for the future, he is certainly one where it is hard to judge how good he will become - but last season at Villa was extremely poor and many managers would have gotten the sack for what he did. Saying that, if he gives us the same stuff this season he rightfully will be sacked and I don't think many clubs would take a chance on him in 2014/2015. I mean, how can you say he is the 4th best when in two last seasons his teams have let in 130 goals combined? If you decide to play attacking football and you let in 69 goals you have not done a very good job since you don't score many at the right end, and that nearly killed us. Add a few exceptionally naive formations, when we let in 15 goals in three matches against Chelsea, Spurs and Wigan and you clearly don't have a top 4-manager at all. I don't want to hear any excuses of how poor our team is/was, because a good manager would find exactly what our weaknesses and strengths are, and then use them in our favor. If the team is leaking goals, you have to tighten things up and play safer. A poor team will always score 40-45 goals regardless of any formation, but the key is then to let in some 50 goals and not 70! A good manager uses what he has at his disposal at any given time, Mourinho wouldn't play possession with our team last season - but we would have finished with more points, more goals scored and a lot less shipped in at the back. Look at Allardyce, he took West Ham to 10th, letting in "only" 53 goals compared to our 69. Sure only a few points ahead of us, but those points are vital and they were always ahead. What he did last season was much, much better than Lambert and we all know Allardyce has been in the top 10 with Bolton several times. So again, how can anyone put Lambert in top 4 and Allardyce in the bottom 10 and tier 4 and so on? Makes absolutely no sense at all. Results are clear; Lambert has thus far failed at Villa - his ideology is very healthy and now he must deliver the results. In my humble opinion, and I really hope he makes it. I like Paul Lambert, I have nothing against him since we could have been presented with managers like Mark Hughes, Chris Hughton, Tony Pulis, Alan Pardew and the lot. Lambert, as of now, is not "better" than any of these managers - I do not for one second think that managers like Hughton or Pulis would have done any worse than Lambert last season. What we are holding on to is the promise for the future, and that is it. Lambert did remotely (15th vs. 16th) better than Alex McLeish, Chris Hughton did better than Lambert at Norwich in their dreaded second season. Hughton epitomizes what I believe is the typical mediocre, lower-half manager. How can anyone with solid evidence say Lambert is better than Hughton based on recent results? I really doubt Lambert would be 4th in average if you asked every other fan of every other club in the Premier League. Like I said, Lambert has promise, but he has to deliver or else he is out just like every other manager is +/- 3 years at this club. Martin O'Neill was untouchable in his second season here, then one year later he was gone like yesterday's garbage. Lambert, for me, is just like Villa next season in the table. In a list of all the managers, he ranges somewhere between 9th and 15th in the league in terms of ability. One thing is promise and ideology, results matters the most every time. It's hard to judge a man when WE have him, he is OUR manager right now, and when it comes to future promise there are few I would swap him with. Edited August 16, 2013 by Papillon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 It's a tough question to answer because I don't think Jose could do Lamberts job and maybe vice versa. I've noticed a few have Holloway and Di Canio above Steve Bruce for instance, I find that quite frankly rediculous, and I have no idea how good a manager Martinez is. See to me this is a really good point. I think Mourinho is good and flexible enough that he could manage at a lower level, but could you really see AVB doing well in the championship or with a lower premier league team? Or Wenger at this point? I'm not so sure, and I think people always act like managing a top club and winning is doing a better job than managing a bottom dweller and getting mid table, when its not really. AVB seems like a very tactical and down to earth person, so he could have done it IMO. He is very respected by every other manager and is always very reflected in his interviews, which tells the story of a person not thinking he is better than the rest. Same with Mourinho (not down to earth obviously), the guy is just incredibly tactical and he would have gotten great results with lesser teams if his motivation was there. (Which is unthinkable of course, but this is hypothetical after all). I mean, why would Mourinho or Wenger by worse than let's say Steve Bruce or Ian Holloway when they are obviously much better at every aspect of the game? And which manager would give the players at any club the highest motivation to do well? I am pretty sure every Championship-player would thrive when they have Mourinho as their boss as opposed to some two-bob journeyman. It is hard to compare though; the best managers are in charge of the best teams because they have proved that they deserve it. It is a totally different ball-game though, and it will be very interesting to see how Moyes copes next season. He has earned his wings the hard way, doing consistently well with a team like Everton. Now he is at Man U, where his authority will be undermined, there are lots more politics going on and there are superstars in his team unlike any he had at Everton. And what about the squad? 15 squad-players he has to juggle around, trying to make them happy even though they are not playing every game. Ferguson managed that because he is an unique manager, but can Moyes keep Nani, Hernandez, Anderson and all the others happy all the time? He has do adapt, he must learn from the process instead of just shaping things like they were at Everton - because if he does that he will be out within two years. At Everton he could lose at home to Wigan and then lose away to Newcastle without any newspaper giving a damn. If he does that at Man U, he will be crucified and compared to Ferguson in every single newspaper in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shillzz Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 (edited) You'd have to say Lambert made his own success to while Rodgers was really only finishing what Martinez started at Swansea. Pretty much this. But more than that, infact. Swansea's footballing philosophy actually goes far back beyond Martinez and Rodgers. It is a philosophy that has been in place for a number of years, and runs through the club at all levels. Managers at all levels are carefully selected to buy into their footballing ways, and pick up where the last manager left off. Players are carefully selected for their ability to play 'the Swansea way', even the goalkeeper was bought (partly) because of his ball playing ability. Which is why Liverpool's appointment of Rodgers was particularly ill founded. They thought that just because they poached their manager, they would all of a sudden start playing Swansea's possession football. It takes much more than one man. Anyway: Best manager would be Mourinho Most overrated would be Moyes (Unless we're talking about Villa fans, in which case Lambert) Most underrated would be the painfully unfashionable Allardyce Worst would be Hughes or Di Canio How is Moyes overrated? His Everton team consistently finished higher than sides with more money and even got top four once. He's always done a solid job, I'm not sure how he's overrated. At this point he's probably underrated because everyone seems to think he'll fail at Man U. Agree on Mourinho and Allardyce though. Overrated because he got the best job in football, but isn't the best manager in football. Nowhere near infact. Therefore the Manchester United board, atleast, over rate him. Edited August 16, 2013 by Shillzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 It's a hard one with Moyes, he has done fantastically with Everton, but I'm still not convinced he is the man for utd. But then anyone taking over fergie is on a hiding to nothing..think he has been surprised by a few things,not least that he hadn't been able to get who he wants.. Honestly think he thought making signings would be easy as everyone wants to join utd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Moyes is just a stop gap. Mourinho will be at Manchester United within three years. He's not going now because lets face it, he can't win if he is the man who follows Fergie. If he is the man who follows the man who **** up after Fergie left then winning over the parts of the Old Trafford crowd who just don't like him will be much easier. Mourinho will engineer a falling out with Abramovich in his third season at Chelsea and walk into Old Trafford as a white knight within a matter of months. To make a James Bond reference, David Moyes is George Lazenby. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Agree with that. I think they should have hired someone like Meulensteen as interim manager, then sack him and bring Moyes in next summer. Fall-out guy check, new guy with lower expectations check. A bit like McLeish really, the expectations here when Lambert came were close to zero. We would have accepted everything, in fact we really did. Sure there were cries of sacking him when we went on that "run" against Chelsea, Spurs and Wigan, but not anywhere near what it could have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 Fulham fans calling for Jol's head on saturday. Nice to see they have noticed how poor he actually is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theunderstudy Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 Fulham fans calling for Jol's head on saturday. Nice to see they have noticed how poor he actually is Some of our fans appear to be calling for Lambert's too mind.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 yeah true but Fulham fans rarely do anything offensive or angry. They could probably even put up with McLeish football and not moan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviramsey Posted September 18, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted September 18, 2013 tbh, every game Fulham plays in the PL is probably considered a blessing by all but their youngest fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark8691 Posted September 19, 2013 Author Share Posted September 19, 2013 stopped reading at Martin Jol number 4. the man is a fraud as a manager and has no idea how to build a squad or teams to defend. to have him ahead of Laudrup, AVB, Pellegrini, even Allardyce and Hughes is shocking Fulham fans calling for Jol's head on saturday. Nice to see they have noticed how poor he actually is Wow, this really has got your back up hasn't it. Relax, it's not important. As i said when i created this list. I did it mainly based on what they have achieved in England. That is why Jol is high in the list i created. I accept he is no 'great' manager. I'd say he's competent-good these days. I accept he looks out of place in that list. But many of the managers below him haven't proved a thing yet in this league and quite a few have relegation on their CV's. And i also admitted to some ignorance of the foreign managers.. I wouldn't say he is failing with Fulham either (yet). Fulham are a small club and just playing premier league football is a relative success. There are many bigger clubs lower down the trough. Fulham fans should accept mid-table and the lower half as success really. Anyway, it's really not worth sweating about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Just seen this thread but how exactly did the OP have Laudrup below Pardew?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Agreed, Laudrup at 14th was a ridiculous mark when he actually advanced Swansea last season from what they achieved under Rodgers which was no mean feat with not much money to spend. Similar Lambert being in the top 5 was a very generous mark, please don't tell me some of those who marked him that high are the same ones writing off our season after the Newcastle game. And BOF, Mark Hughes bottom really? Started off well at Stoke and has achieved top 10 finishes at Fulham and Blackburn. I thought he was unlucky at Man. City as the expectations at that club changed overnight so really the only black mark would be his ill-fated spell at QPR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 who should be bottom villachris? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I can't say I'm a great fan of Steve Bruce tbh. He seems to do well for a short time and then his teams go on long winless runs and eventually get relegated, it happened at SHA and I think it would've happened at Sunderland. I also think Steve Clarke has been massively found out at WBA, his record since the new year is abysmal. I suppose you'd put Hughton in that category aswell but I actually quite like him, probably in the category of excellent championship manager, maybe not quite a premier league manager that Mick McCarthy was always pidgeon holed in and I think Holloway aswell. Last season Pulis, MON and McDermott would've been bottom three for me....well after Hughes got his P45. Previous season McLeish would've been the equivilant of the season Derby had in 07-08. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 It's quite difficult to say is the worst as quite a lot in the league are unproven really. Holloway has to be a contender though, have never rated him as a manager since he relegated a good Leicester team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnbull Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I must say that I wouldn't be too put out if Michael Laudrup ever became Villa manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Was just thinking about it in 11/12 Steve Kean could probably have rivalled McLeish as the worst manager in the league. You also had a passed it MON at Sunderland and Pulis. Terry Connor was also in employment for three months... The premier league has a lot more depth in terms of good management than even two seasons ago.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers13 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Was just thinking about it in 11/12 Steve Kean could probably have rivalled McLeish as the worst manager in the league. You also had a passed it MON at Sunderland and Pulis. Terry Connor was also in employment for three months... The premier league has a lot more depth in terms of good management than even two seasons ago.... Steve kean rivalling McLeish? Hahahahahahahahahahagahahahhahahahahahahahha I understand McLeish was bad even terrible but Kean was on a whole different level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts