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Hiroshi Kiyotake


KjParton
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No i'm not saying that 'the manager doesn't make value judgements about a player's worth.' What i am saying is that if the manager really wants the player, the selling club won't budge on the asking price and the buying club are willing to meet that price then it's unlikely that the manager will then say no to the board.

 

The manager and the owner would sit down together and make a list of players and the top price they think each player is worth. If the club can get him for under that price then great, if not they move on to a different target.

 

It seems pretty likely that the manager valued this player at X amount but were quoted more than they thought he was worth so have moved on. 

 

There is also the distinct possibility that Lambert felt it was good value for the player but was rebuffed on the finance?

 

 

I don't think anybody has explicitly said that isn't at least a possibility? Or that wages aren't the defining factor (more likely IMO).

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Like several good managers at Chelsea for instance who didn't bat an eyelid at prices paid or Ferguson who never overpaid for a player because he wanted him or maybe Madrid who are supposedly going to pay 90 plus million for Bale to try and match Barca but maybe the manager wouldn't pay it because he is over priced?

 

See what i mean Stevo. You are attaching some form of phantom morality to a football manager. If the money is there to spend, he will spend it on the players he wants even if it means paying extra to get that player and football history is littered with it.

 

Just because Lambert is the manager of our club it wouldn't make him behave much differently from the rest of the managerial fraternity when presented with the right finance.

 

You've just named three clubs who don't populate the same stratosphere as we do, or Spurs for that matter. Two clubs with very defined budgets with two clever managers at the helm willing to work within those budgets and understanding that what they spend today has a knock on effect that spreads way beyond tomorrow.

 

Your point is mind boggling.  

 

his point sounds like a twisted defence of MON to me!

just because he didn't know the value of players doesn't mean our current manager doesn't. as for picking out three of the richest clubs in the world to compare our transfer spend with? wtf? apart from that being incredibly mental, abrahamovic is said to have signed a couple of players himself going over his managers head, real have definitely (apart from mourinho seemingly) been firmly in the "head coach" and not manager boat and the signings at best are made with a consultation with the coach, definitely not like it is over here. ferguson and united?! really?

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No i'm not saying that 'the manager doesn't make value judgements about a player's worth.' What i am saying is that if the manager really wants the player, the selling club won't budge on the asking price and the buying club are willing to meet that price then it's unlikely that the manager will then say no to the board.

 

The manager and the owner would sit down together and make a list of players and the top price they think each player is worth. If the club can get him for under that price then great, if not they move on to a different target.

 

It seems pretty likely that the manager valued this player at X amount but were quoted more than they thought he was worth so have moved on. 

 

There is also the distinct possibility that Lambert felt it was good value for the player but was rebuffed on the finance?

 

 

Nothing Lambert has said so far indicates a rift with the owner over finance, on this transfer or otherwise. In fact Lambert has consistently said all window he has been backed for his targets. I am not going to assume there was a problem between the owner and manager on this transfer without evidence. 

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its in the title.....Paul Lambert -Football Manager

 

If HE feels he has to manage the wage bill or if he feels Nuremburg are asking too much. He will act accordingly.

 

These things are not so one dimensional as some of us fans think and all the factors are a "moving feast"

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I think PL seems to be the exact type of manager who can like a player but feel the cost doesn't equal value. I seem to recall him joking about being nervous about the benteke transfer fee last year and the big sum. Not knocking MON but he spent that on Curtis Davies or Coker without blinking.

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I think PL seems to be the exact type of manager who can like a player but feel the cost doesn't equal value. I seem to recall him joking about being nervous about the benteke transfer fee last year and the big sum. Not knocking MON but he spent that on Curtis Davies or Coker without blinking.

To be fair to O'Neill I don't think he didn't consider the players he was buying, I just think he's got really poor judgement.

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From the videos I have seen Kiyo  reminds me of Modric and perhaps a little faster. We have been sadly lacking for set piece plays since Barry and Young left and there is no  doubt that Kiyo has some talent there.

 

The one thing I  have liked about him though that stands out  for me is the exuberance and joy that he shows  in his play.

However, at the moment he is  still under contract with FCN and understandably  they don't want him to leave. They allegedly put a valuation on him  that would discourage a number of teams  from pursuit.

 

Rumours abound about  Kiyos  own  wishes but regardless of  social media anecdotes, the question to settle is whether Kiyo  would add much more  to what we may already have on our squad. Tonev may already be an option as a  No. 10. Delph seems to be an older wiser more confident player and Sylla keeps improving  every game. We haven't seen the top side  of  Westwood for  that matter. So what would  tip the balance if we assume there  could be a Villa interest? For me it is probably  going to be down to being able to negotiate   with   FCN for a fair  valuation on the contract side of things. On the playing side I would  think that the addition of Kiyos  set piece  skills would tip the scales.

 

So for me, If  the  rumours that we are in for  Kiyo  and he is interested  are true then I would  applaud Lambert if he signs the lad.

 

There may well be a few other irons in the  fire apart  from  Kiyotake. I wouldnt be surprised if we  signed a couple more players before the window ends. Maybe even sooner  if the possible Bent  sale  is  concluded.

 

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Like several good managers at Chelsea for instance who didn't bat an eyelid at prices paid or Ferguson who never overpaid for a player because he wanted him or maybe Madrid who are supposedly going to pay 90 plus million for Bale to try and match Barca but maybe the manager wouldn't pay it because he is over priced?

 

See what i mean Stevo. You are attaching some form of phantom morality to a football manager. If the money is there to spend, he will spend it on the players he wants even if it means paying extra to get that player and football history is littered with it.

 

Just because Lambert is the manager of our club it wouldn't make him behave much differently from the rest of the managerial fraternity when presented with the right finance.

No I absolutely don't.

 

You're missing the point, and making new ones. I'm done trying to explain it. Everybody else gets it. You can remain the exception.

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in my eyes it is so clear that we NEED to sign this fella. Purely on his set pieces alone. Im sick of those floating corners. Our set pieces are shit. We may even learn how to defend them better in training when he whips them in.

 

He can also be creative and spot a pass/through ball and from what i have seen of him he tracks back and defends quite well too.

 

Must sign.

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I cannot understand why some the players we have cannot whip in the corners and free kicks. Surely if they were told to do so, as professional footballers, they should be able to do it. It should not be beyond their capabilities. Do they not even practice this? It seems so blindingly obvious. Did we not score from a  corner that Westwood whipped in? Not using this as an argument for not getting Kiyotake in, by the way. I do think we need a quality AM.

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Like several good managers at Chelsea for instance who didn't bat an eyelid at prices paid or Ferguson who never overpaid for a player because he wanted him or maybe Madrid who are supposedly going to pay 90 plus million for Bale to try and match Barca but maybe the manager wouldn't pay it because he is over priced?

 

See what i mean Stevo. You are attaching some form of phantom morality to a football manager. If the money is there to spend, he will spend it on the players he wants even if it means paying extra to get that player and football history is littered with it.

 

Just because Lambert is the manager of our club it wouldn't make him behave much differently from the rest of the managerial fraternity when presented with the right finance.

 

You've just named three clubs who don't populate the same stratosphere as we do, or Spurs for that matter. Two clubs with very defined budgets with two clever managers at the helm willing to work within those budgets and understanding that what they spend today has a knock on effect that spreads way beyond tomorrow.

 

Your point is mind boggling.  

 

My post was in reference to stevo's reply in which he stated 'he wouldn't act differently to other managers. He'd act the same as the good ones.'

 

His reply was an unconditional generalisation and i replied with the same.

 

Concerning clubs with different budgets. Please note the bolded text in my above post.

 

Come the end of the window with clubs needing players do you not think that to get the reluctant selling club to release that player the buying club will have to over pay to get the player whether it be Madrid, Arsenal, Spurs Man U or any other club for that matter who have the money?

 

I believe that Lambert would do the same if he thought the said player would benefit the team.

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To me, he'd another option and we can't have enough of those. I don't see him as some kind of wonderkid, because if he was then clubs would be tripping over each other to sign him. But, his skills might give Lambert the versatility he needs to switch play, without compromising the attack. Also, you can't over-emphasise our desperate need for a set-piece taker and Kiyotake looks to have what it takes in that dept.

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Like several good managers at Chelsea for instance who didn't bat an eyelid at prices paid or Ferguson who never overpaid for a player because he wanted him or maybe Madrid who are supposedly going to pay 90 plus million for Bale to try and match Barca but maybe the manager wouldn't pay it because he is over priced?

 

See what i mean Stevo. You are attaching some form of phantom morality to a football manager. If the money is there to spend, he will spend it on the players he wants even if it means paying extra to get that player and football history is littered with it.

 

Just because Lambert is the manager of our club it wouldn't make him behave much differently from the rest of the managerial fraternity when presented with the right finance.

No I absolutely don't.

 

You're missing the point, and making new ones. I'm done trying to explain it. Everybody else gets it. You can remain the exception.

 

No stevo i'm not missing the point at all and i'm not 'making new ones' either. My points are relative to one another and if as you say 'everybody else gets it' it doesn't necessarily make it right as we've seen before on VT. Its just different opinions on the subject in hand and as i've tried to show i feel previous history with transfers substantiates my point more so than yours.

 

I'm going to leave it at that.

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Our corners have been shite since Young left, would be great to have a decent set piece expert in the squad.

 

they werent really great when he was here either, I remember some of his deliveries near the end were hopeless. they became shit when Laursen left as he would attack anything in the air

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We probably have the best part of £300k a week ( £15m a year ) sat with the bomb squad at the moment that aren't in the managers plans so it wouldn't surprise me if Lerner gave PL the go ahead to try and sign Kiyotake once we've shifted one or 2. There's still nearly a month of the window left ( last month is usually busiest too ) so why don't we all just play nicely and see how it pans out eh ?

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Our corners have been shite since Young left, would be great to have a decent set piece expert in the squad.

 

they werent really great when he was here either, I remember some of his deliveries near the end were hopeless. they became shit when Laursen left as he would attack anything in the air

 

Agree Zatman quite often Young's delivery was over hit which Man U have now probably found out.

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Our corners have been shite since Young left, would be great to have a decent set piece expert in the squad.

 

they werent really great when he was here either, I remember some of his deliveries near the end were hopeless. they became shit when Laursen left as he would attack anything in the air

Agree Zatman quite often Young's delivery was over hit which Man U have now probably found out.

I'd rather have Young's corners and set pieces to the complete and utter shite we have served up now.

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