Speculation Hiroshi Kiyotake

[VillaChris]

I'm really struggling to see how Kiyotake (or any other 'no.10') would fit into a current team. We ended the system playing 433, with Gabby and Andi either side of Benteke and a midfield 3 of Westwood, Sylla, & Delph. He won't replace Benteke, and I would suspect he's unlike to be pushed into a wider role that either Gabby or Andi were playing.

 

In theory he could play in the middle of midfield at the expense of one of Westwood, Sylla or Delph, in a 4231 formation, but playing that many attacking players would leave the middle of midfield rather exposed.

 

So for those reasons, I'm out - and can't see it happening.

 

End of the day if we're going to progress from eternal relegation battles eventually we're going to need a wee bit more creativity and actually some goals from our central midfield before too long.

 

I think Westwood is a class act and Delphy and Sylla both played very well at the end of the season but I think it's a case of either or with those two.

 

I agree I'm not sure we would get away with it playing the top teams (although Lambert strangely seems to like playing more attack minded teams against the top 6) but I'm pretty sure home games against bottom half teams like Palace and Hull we could do it no problem, we certainly need to win more home games.

[Philosopher]

 

I'm really struggling to see how Kiyotake (or any other 'no.10') would fit into a current team. We ended the system playing 433, with Gabby and Andi either side of Benteke and a midfield 3 of Westwood, Sylla, & Delph. He won't replace Benteke, and I would suspect he's unlike to be pushed into a wider role that either Gabby or Andi were playing.

 

In theory he could play in the middle of midfield at the expense of one of Westwood, Sylla or Delph, in a 4231 formation, but playing that many attacking players would leave the middle of midfield rather exposed.

 

So for those reasons, I'm out - and can't see it happening.

 

It'd have to see Andi and Gabby tracking back regularly (which, to be fair, they do anyway) but possibly sticking to wider positions more often, to open up space in the middle when attacking.  For that reason, maybe we'll see someone like Tonev feature quite frequently out wide.

 

But, for the reasons you've stated, I can't see Lambert busting a gut (or paying over the odds) as we have a decent system already.  Another option in central midfield would be welcome though, and I'd prefer to see an attacking one having brought the much-needed Sylla for the defensive role earlier this year.

 

This is thing though, Kiyotake isn't really a traditional number ten that with float around in the hole.  He will be expected to occupy the central midfield position and rather than look to get beyond the other midfielders and get in the box, look to probe with pentrating through balls and otherwise keep possession and spread the play. Basically the way Bannan should have played (and occassionally for a few minutes here and there did)! One of his midfield partners would be expected to make runs beyond him (rather than this role being assigned to one it will most likely be shared with them taking turns to make the forward runs). Delph, Sylla, Westwood and Bacuna are all capable of this. Kiyotake will also be expected to take the set pieces as we really need a quality set piece taker.

[poitier]

 

I think Westwood is a class act and Delphy and Sylla both played very well at the end of the season but I think it's a case of either or with those two.

 

 

Westwood was subbed off a few times when we were chasing games, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one to make way for a super creative AM, with Delph and Sylla being the engine.

[VillaChris]

Who knows maybe an attacking creative midfield could push Benteke to 25-30 goals rather than just 20 and Gabby and Weimann to 15 goals rather than just 10 each.

 

There's over 50 goals right there so it would require an even worse defensive collapse than last season for us still not to be winning many games.

[SeattleVillan]

 

 

I think Westwood is a class act and Delphy and Sylla both played very well at the end of the season but I think it's a case of either or with those two.

 

 

Westwood was subbed off a few times when we were chasing games, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one to make way for a super creative AM, with Delph and Sylla being the engine.

 

i think you're off on that one...westwood appears to be the one staple in midfield

[Philosopher]

I think a playmaker is to improve our performances at home as our preferred midfield and forward lacks the bit of creativity, awareness and guile to unlock a stubborn defence.  Plus we need to keep possession better to build pressure our opponents, so a playmaker will help in this regard. I reckon away from home and against the top 6 Sylla, Westwood and Delph will be the first choice, but at home against similar ability or weaker opponents Kiyotake would come in for one of the three, also would be used away against defensive teams and lower league opposition in the cups. That if we were to sign him.

[poitier]

 

 

 

I think Westwood is a class act and Delphy and Sylla both played very well at the end of the season but I think it's a case of either or with those two.

 

 

Westwood was subbed off a few times when we were chasing games, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one to make way for a super creative AM, with Delph and Sylla being the engine.

 

i think you're off on that one...westwood appears to be the one staple in midfield

 

Yes, for the most part I agree, but I think in the circumstances where we supposedly need this super AM, ie teams sitting deep, he may be sacrificed.

 

I can't really see us attracting a quality AM anyway unless we are offering them a lot of game time, so I would be very surprised if this happens.

[K-Carlsen]

Found an interesting report on him on bundesligafanatic.com. Highlighted what seems to be his main quality (based on vids i've seen as well):

 

Hiroshi Kiyotake: In many ways, Kiyotake’s career has been a delayed version of Kagawa’s. Cerezo Osaka bought him in 2010 as a replacement for Kagawa, who was heading for Dortmund. Two years later, Kiyotake arrived in Germany himself, just after Kagawa had packed up and left for Manchester United. So far, in his first season in the Bundesliga, Kiyotake has been exceptional. The 23 year-old has started all 16 league games for Nürnberg, and is tied for the team lead with three goals. He has also recorded five assists, tied for seventh most in the league. What has been particularly impressive about his performances has been his set-piece delivery. Time and again, his free-kicks and corners are sent into the box with swerve and pinpoint accuracy, creating havoc for opposing defenses. His delivery together with his creativity in the middle of the park have been on delightful display this season, as he has created 76 chances for Der Club. For the second half of the season, he will have to keep up the good performances if Nürnberg are to climb up a tight middle of the table (relegation will probably not be a worry with the likes of Hoffenheim, Augsburg, and Greuther Fürth below them). If he keeps going at this rate, he may follow the Kagawa path once again to a Champions League team.

 

Looks like the right player for us, doesn't he?

[Condimentalist]

That was what struck me most when I watched the video of him actually. His set pieces are amazing, which alone is worth several goals a season, especially with the likes of Benteke in the box. 

[Philosopher]

Found an interesting report on him on bundesligafanatic.com. Highlighted what seems to be his main quality (based on vids i've seen as well):

 

Hiroshi Kiyotake: In many ways, Kiyotake’s career has been a delayed version of Kagawa’s. Cerezo Osaka bought him in 2010 as a replacement for Kagawa, who was heading for Dortmund. Two years later, Kiyotake arrived in Germany himself, just after Kagawa had packed up and left for Manchester United. So far, in his first season in the Bundesliga, Kiyotake has been exceptional. The 23 year-old has started all 16 league games for Nürnberg, and is tied for the team lead with three goals. He has also recorded five assists, tied for seventh most in the league. What has been particularly impressive about his performances has been his set-piece delivery. Time and again, his free-kicks and corners are sent into the box with swerve and pinpoint accuracy, creating havoc for opposing defenses. His delivery together with his creativity in the middle of the park have been on delightful display this season, as he has created 76 chances for Der Club. For the second half of the season, he will have to keep up the good performances if Nürnberg are to climb up a tight middle of the table (relegation will probably not be a worry with the likes of Hoffenheim, Augsburg, and Greuther Fürth below them). If he keeps going at this rate, he may follow the Kagawa path once again to a Champions League team.

 

Looks like the right player for us, doesn't he?

Exactly he is a creative central midfield playmaker with great set piece delivery which is exactly what we are lacking. Not a no 10 attacking mid (although he can play in that position). From what I have seen of him he is best when carrying the ball from deep and looking for the killer ball. Think Jack Wilshere type dictating from central midfield with precise passing, awareness and ability to retain possession under pressure.

[vandaq]

Need moar silly rumors and itks

[Morpheus]

 

 

Was gonna write a big response but can't be arsed.

 

Would Lambert say no to a player if he thought he was overpriced, even if the board were happy to pay it?

 

Yes he would. That's what I believe. If you don't then fine. I tried to explain that in my previous post, if it didn't work then so be it. 

If it was a player he wanted and it was within the club's budget then definitely yes.

 

You and others seem to think that Lambert has a halo around his head in that he would act differently to other managers in the same situation.

 

 

Villas-Boas also pulled out of paying £25m for Benteke when his board are clearly prepared to pay £26m for a striker (they just paid that much for Soldado). 

 

I guess AVB must also have a halo round his head?

 

You know this how exactly?

 

More about having a head on his shoulders than a halo on his head.

Based on what?

[LondonLax]

 

 

 

Was gonna write a big response but can't be arsed.

 

Would Lambert say no to a player if he thought he was overpriced, even if the board were happy to pay it?

 

Yes he would. That's what I believe. If you don't then fine. I tried to explain that in my previous post, if it didn't work then so be it. 

If it was a player he wanted and it was within the club's budget then definitely yes.

 

You and others seem to think that Lambert has a halo around his head in that he would act differently to other managers in the same situation.

 

 

Villas-Boas also pulled out of paying £25m for Benteke when his board are clearly prepared to pay £26m for a striker (they just paid that much for Soldado). 

 

I guess AVB must also have a halo round his head?

 

You know this how exactly?

 

 

 

 

Benteke is still here and Soldado moved to Spurs for £26m. 

 

A manager will have his own idea of how much a player is worth. For all we know Lambert may have thought Kiyotake was worth £4-5m and when he was quoted double that decided they were taking the piss out of the club. Even if the owner was willing to pay it it would represent a poor use of the clubs resources so we move on. 

 

You must be crazy if you think the manager doesn't make value judgments about a players worth and turn down a player even if the owner would have backed the move. 

[Morpheus]

Benteke still being here doesn't prove that Villas-Boas pulled out of paying 25m for him nor does it prove that Spurs were actually in for him at all.

 

No i'm not saying that 'the manager doesn't make value judgements about a player's worth.' What i am saying is that if the manager really wants the player, the selling club won't budge on the asking price and the buying club are willing to meet that price then it's unlikely that the manager will then say no to the board.

[LondonLax]

No i'm not saying that 'the manager doesn't make value judgements about a player's worth.' What i am saying is that if the manager really wants the player, the selling club won't budge on the asking price and the buying club are willing to meet that price then it's unlikely that the manager will then say no to the board.

 

The manager and the owner would sit down together and make a list of players and the top price they think each player is worth. If the club can get him for under that price then great, if not they move on to a different target.

 

It seems pretty likely that the manager valued this player at X amount but were quoted more than they thought he was worth so have moved on. 

[Stevo985]

 

Was gonna write a big response but can't be arsed.

 

Would Lambert say no to a player if he thought he was overpriced, even if the board were happy to pay it?

 

Yes he would. That's what I believe. If you don't then fine. I tried to explain that in my previous post, if it didn't work then so be it. 

If it was a player he wanted and it was within the club's budget then definitely yes.

 

You and others seem to think that Lambert has a halo around his head in that he would act differently to other managers in the same situation.

 

He wouldn't act differently to other managers.

 

He'd act the same as the good ones.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Stevo985

[Morpheus]

Like several good managers at Chelsea for instance who didn't bat an eyelid at prices paid or Ferguson who never overpaid for a player because he wanted him or maybe Madrid who are supposedly going to pay 90 plus million for Bale to try and match Barca but maybe the manager wouldn't pay it because he is over priced?

 

See what i mean Stevo. You are attaching some form of phantom morality to a football manager. If the money is there to spend, he will spend it on the players he wants even if it means paying extra to get that player and football history is littered with it.

 

Just because Lambert is the manager of our club it wouldn't make him behave much differently from the rest of the managerial fraternity when presented with the right finance.

[VillaChris]

Our corners have been shite since Young left, would be great to have a decent set piece expert in the squad.

[Morpheus]

 

No i'm not saying that 'the manager doesn't make value judgements about a player's worth.' What i am saying is that if the manager really wants the player, the selling club won't budge on the asking price and the buying club are willing to meet that price then it's unlikely that the manager will then say no to the board.

 

The manager and the owner would sit down together and make a list of players and the top price they think each player is worth. If the club can get him for under that price then great, if not they move on to a different target.

 

It seems pretty likely that the manager valued this player at X amount but were quoted more than they thought he was worth so have moved on. 

 

There is also the distinct possibility that Lambert felt it was good value for the player but was rebuffed on the finance?

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Like several good managers at Chelsea for instance who didn't bat an eyelid at prices paid or Ferguson who never overpaid for a player because he wanted him or maybe Madrid who are supposedly going to pay 90 plus million for Bale to try and match Barca but maybe the manager wouldn't pay it because he is over priced?

 

See what i mean Stevo. You are attaching some form of phantom morality to a football manager. If the money is there to spend, he will spend it on the players he wants even if it means paying extra to get that player and football history is littered with it.

 

Just because Lambert is the manager of our club it wouldn't make him behave much differently from the rest of the managerial fraternity when presented with the right finance.

 

You've just named three clubs who don't populate the same stratosphere as we do, or Spurs for that matter. Two clubs with very defined budgets with two clever managers at the helm willing to work within those budgets and understanding that what they spend today has a knock on effect that spreads way beyond tomorrow.

 

Your point is mind boggling.