Speculation Hiroshi Kiyotake

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

They want 16£ for him

 

 

If your source is that speculation article from NBC, I think youll find the price quoted was 16 million $ (Dollars), not pounds.

[HeyAnty]

 

I think we only really need to shift Bent in order to see some movement. That wage is a huge stumbling block imo.

According to Joe Kinnear at Newcastle, they had met with Bent's representative's last week and agreed things from that point of view, and they were currently in negotiations with Villa about a transfer fee. I think Bent will go, but later in the window as one of the parties (maybe us, maybe Newc or Fulham) compromise and do the deal. It will probably be in the last week of the window, maybe even deadline day. We will have some deals lined up in case it happens late, assuming we want to re-invest in the squad at that point. So what I am saying is that I think we won't see a Kiyotake or AM signing until very late in the window, similar to the Benteke deal last summer.

 

You fail to mention they bid 2 million for him after the talks and were told were to go.  Newcastle fans were going mad as they also knew it was a joke and that Fulham would prob get him.

[Morpheus]

 

What i mean is this.

 

 

 

Manager has identified a player he wants. He then presents that target to the board. The board or CE approach the club the player plays for and his agent. We are quoted a price. The board then informs the manager of the price and that he can have that player.

 

Do you think the manager would turn that player down on the basis of thinking that the price is too much even though his chairman has said ok to the deal?

 

Yes.

 

I admire your faith mate i really do but i doubt most managers would have such consideration if they really wanted the player.

[Big_John_10]

If Villa have given out massive contracts again after whats the equivalent to 5 mins of premier league experience then they have leant nothing.

What should they have done then?

[Stevo985]

 

 

What i mean is this.

 

 

 

Manager has identified a player he wants. He then presents that target to the board. The board or CE approach the club the player plays for and his agent. We are quoted a price. The board then informs the manager of the price and that he can have that player.

 

Do you think the manager would turn that player down on the basis of thinking that the price is too much even though his chairman has said ok to the deal?

 

Yes.

 

I admire your faith mate i really do but i doubt most managers would have such consideration if they really wanted the player.

 

Why?

 

The board don't know as much about football as Lambert does, especially when the players he signs are these people we've never heard of from abroad.

 

If it happens the way you say it does, where Lambert just says "I want to buy Helenius please" and they just go away and negotiate with the selling club, how do the board know what they're aiming at. The selling club could say £500k or £25million. The board wouldn't know if that was good or bad?

 

It's Lambert (and his team) that have scouted this player and know how much he's worth and/or how much they're willing to pay. The board don't know **** all. The might have to approve the eventual amount we spend, but I don't for one second believe they just trot off with a name and figure it out themselves.

 

So if it happens the way you say it does, and Lambert told the board, I want Hiro Kitoyake, and the board went off, negotiated and came back and said "They want £20 million [or whatever], and we're ok with that", then yes. I believe in that situation Paul Lambert would say no. Because he knows (I assume) that that is way too much for the player and we'd be spunking money up the wall.

 

 

After all the complaints we had about MON's spending, paying over the odds for players and paying wages that players were undeserving of, and where that approach got us, I find it shocking that people seem to be just saying "**** it, pay whatever they want, get him in, it doesn't matter"

 

That's no longer the club's approach, and it certainly doesn't appear to be Lambert's approach.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Stevo985

[SikhInTrinity]

Great post Stevo.

[Morpheus]

 

 

 

What i mean is this.

 

 

 

Manager has identified a player he wants. He then presents that target to the board. The board or CE approach the club the player plays for and his agent. We are quoted a price. The board then informs the manager of the price and that he can have that player.

 

Do you think the manager would turn that player down on the basis of thinking that the price is too much even though his chairman has said ok to the deal?

 

Yes.

 

I admire your faith mate i really do but i doubt most managers would have such consideration if they really wanted the player.

 

Why?

 

The board don't know as much about football as Lambert does, especially when the players he signs are these people we've never heard of from abroad.

 

If it happens the way you say it does, where Lambert just says "I want to buy Helenius please" and they just go away and negotiate with the selling club, how do the board know what they're aiming at. The selling club could say £500k or £25million. The board wouldn't know if that was good or bad?

 

It's Lambert (and his team) that have scouted this player and know how much he's worth and/or how much they're willing to pay. The board don't know **** all. The might have to approve the eventual amount we spend, but I don't for one second believe they just trot off with a name and figure it out themselves.

 

So if it happens the way you say it does, and Lambert told the board, I want Hiro Kitoyake, and the board went off, negotiated and came back and said "They want £20 million [or whatever], and we're ok with that", then yes. I believe in that situation Paul Lambert would say no. Because he knows (I assume) that that is way too much for the player and we'd be spunking money up the wall.

 

 

After all the complaints we had about MON's spending, paying over the odds for players and paying wages that players were undeserving of, and where that approach got us, I find it shocking that people seem to be just saying "**** it, pay whatever they want, get him in, it doesn't matter"

 

That's no longer the club's approach, and it certainly doesn't appear to be Lambert's approach.

 

Where have i said that its fine for our club to return to the MON era which you are alluding to? You have gone off in a tangent which has nothing to do with my original post.

 

My point was that if our club or any club for that matter says yes to an identified target most managers are unlikely then to say no.

 

That target in the first place would be a realistic target given that our present manager would be aware of the financial constraints within the club so your Helenius example at 25m is irrelevant as is your example concerning Kitoyate at 20m.

[Stevo985]

Was gonna write a big response but can't be arsed.

 

Would Lambert say no to a player if he thought he was overpriced, even if the board were happy to pay it?

 

Yes he would. That's what I believe. If you don't then fine. I tried to explain that in my previous post, if it didn't work then so be it. 

[NeilS]

 

 

I think we only really need to shift Bent in order to see some movement. That wage is a huge stumbling block imo.

According to Joe Kinnear at Newcastle, they had met with Bent's representative's last week and agreed things from that point of view, and they were currently in negotiations with Villa about a transfer fee. I think Bent will go, but later in the window as one of the parties (maybe us, maybe Newc or Fulham) compromise and do the deal. It will probably be in the last week of the window, maybe even deadline day. We will have some deals lined up in case it happens late, assuming we want to re-invest in the squad at that point. So what I am saying is that I think we won't see a Kiyotake or AM signing until very late in the window, similar to the Benteke deal last summer.

 

You fail to mention they bid 2 million for him after the talks and were told were to go.  Newcastle fans were going mad as they also knew it was a joke and that Fulham would prob get him.

 

I missed that, I hadn't realised they had even lodged a bid. I thought Fulham were the only team that had bid so far (£4m ish?), which was rejected. I was on holiday last week, so missed a lot of information from the internet and had to rely on snippets from SSN.

 

From what you say, It looks more likely that Fulham will be the team to make the effort, just remains to be seen how much they want him, and how much we want rid of him?

[SikhInTrinity]

 

 

 

 

What i mean is this.

 

 

 

Manager has identified a player he wants. He then presents that target to the board. The board or CE approach the club the player plays for and his agent. We are quoted a price. The board then informs the manager of the price and that he can have that player.

 

Do you think the manager would turn that player down on the basis of thinking that the price is too much even though his chairman has said ok to the deal?

 

Yes.

 

I admire your faith mate i really do but i doubt most managers would have such consideration if they really wanted the player.

 

Why?

 

The board don't know as much about football as Lambert does, especially when the players he signs are these people we've never heard of from abroad.

 

If it happens the way you say it does, where Lambert just says "I want to buy Helenius please" and they just go away and negotiate with the selling club, how do the board know what they're aiming at. The selling club could say £500k or £25million. The board wouldn't know if that was good or bad?

 

It's Lambert (and his team) that have scouted this player and know how much he's worth and/or how much they're willing to pay. The board don't know **** all. The might have to approve the eventual amount we spend, but I don't for one second believe they just trot off with a name and figure it out themselves.

 

So if it happens the way you say it does, and Lambert told the board, I want Hiro Kitoyake, and the board went off, negotiated and came back and said "They want £20 million [or whatever], and we're ok with that", then yes. I believe in that situation Paul Lambert would say no. Because he knows (I assume) that that is way too much for the player and we'd be spunking money up the wall.

 

 

After all the complaints we had about MON's spending, paying over the odds for players and paying wages that players were undeserving of, and where that approach got us, I find it shocking that people seem to be just saying "**** it, pay whatever they want, get him in, it doesn't matter"

 

That's no longer the club's approach, and it certainly doesn't appear to be Lambert's approach.

 

Where have i said that its fine for our club to return to the MON era which you are alluding to? You have gone off in a tangent which has nothing to do with my original post.

 

My point was that if our club or any club for that matter says yes to an identified target most managers are unlikely then to say no.

 

That target in the first place would be a realistic target given that our present manager would be aware of the financial constraints within the club so your Helenius example at 25m is irrelevant as is your example concerning Kitoyate at 20m.

 

 

Spurs wanted Benteke, they as in AVB/ Board put a value of 18million on him and would not move from this valuation, hence Benteke decided to stay. Then Spurs go and pay 26million for Soldado, obviously they believed Soldado was worth more due to his experience and he's a Spanish International. So does that mean AVB wasn't backed on a target?

 

Lambert has a figure in mind for Kiyotake and if FCN which they are entitled to do are asking for a range he believes is much higher than what he believes is reasonable that does not mean he is not being backed.

[HeyAnty]

I think we only really need to shift Bent in order to see some movement. That wage is a huge stumbling block imo.

According to Joe Kinnear at Newcastle, they had met with Bent's representative's last week and agreed things from that point of view, and they were currently in negotiations with Villa about a transfer fee. I think Bent will go, but later in the window as one of the parties (maybe us, maybe Newc or Fulham) compromise and do the deal. It will probably be in the last week of the window, maybe even deadline day. We will have some deals lined up in case it happens late, assuming we want to re-invest in the squad at that point. So what I am saying is that I think we won't see a Kiyotake or AM signing until very late in the window, similar to the Benteke deal last summer.

You fail to mention they bid 2 million for him after the talks and were told were to go. Newcastle fans were going mad as they also knew it was a joke and that Fulham would prob get him.

I missed that, I hadn't realised they had even lodged a bid. I thought Fulham were the only team that had bid so far (£4m ish?), which was rejected. I was on holiday last week, so missed a lot of information from the internet and had to rely on snippets from SSN.

From what you say, It looks more likely that Fulham will be the team to make the effort, just remains to be seen how much they want him, and how much we want rid of him?

Well that was from the newcastle forums that info. Id believe they bid 2 mill as they have turned into a joke of a club

[CrackpotForeigner]

The club isn't run on some kind of Neo-Stalinist principle. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that there is two-way dialogue between PL and the board.

 

"Real Madrid have come back and said Ronaldo's ours for 50 mill. Shall we go ahead?"

 

"No, let's leave it, we can probably get Walcott and Kiyotake for that kind of coin."

 

See- simple civilised dialogue between civilised yuman beans.

[EastEndVillan]

I'm really struggling to see how Kiyotake (or any other 'no.10') would fit into a current team. We ended the system playing 433, with Gabby and Andi either side of Benteke and a midfield 3 of Westwood, Sylla, & Delph. He won't replace Benteke, and I would suspect he's unlike to be pushed into a wider role that either Gabby or Andi were playing.

 

In theory he could play in the middle of midfield at the expense of one of Westwood, Sylla or Delph, in a 4231 formation, but playing that many attacking players would leave the middle of midfield rather exposed.

 

So for those reasons, I'm out - and can't see it happening.

[terrytini]

Think this would be a superb signing.

Surely this shouldn't be held up by having to shift someone first. We've hardly spent ridiculous money this summer, if this is a player lambert wants I would have hoped he'd be able to sign him without having to sell someone first.

This.

 

I dont think he will be coming, or if he is it has nothing to do with who we sell.  Maybe the other Club are doing what we and others have done this year and simply holding out for price.

 

What would be the point of denying ourselves someone the Manager really wants and keeping half a dozen he doesn't want ? (which is what would happen if they didn't go).

 

Surely if he wants him, RL would sanction it regardless.  Whatever we are saying publicly re Bent etc RL must have written off their wages and any possible fees as soon as PL told him they were unwanted.  It wouldn't make any sense not to have done so.

[Morpheus]

Was gonna write a big response but can't be arsed.

 

Would Lambert say no to a player if he thought he was overpriced, even if the board were happy to pay it?

 

Yes he would. That's what I believe. If you don't then fine. I tried to explain that in my previous post, if it didn't work then so be it. 

If it was a player he wanted and it was within the club's budget then definitely yes.

 

You and others seem to think that Lambert has a halo around his head in that he would act differently to other managers in the same situation.

[Dodgyknees]

The nutty one has blocked me on Twitter, for not agreeing with her. Wondering how she will take the Nursey story considering she constantly trolled Twitter about him being the honest one.

Oops.

No need for that - Julie has been part of Villatalk for a long long time - hope you will be big enough to apologies if he joins.

1) She didn't break the news we might sign

2) You haven't seen the abuse she hands out.

[LondonLax]

 

Was gonna write a big response but can't be arsed.

 

Would Lambert say no to a player if he thought he was overpriced, even if the board were happy to pay it?

 

Yes he would. That's what I believe. If you don't then fine. I tried to explain that in my previous post, if it didn't work then so be it. 

If it was a player he wanted and it was within the club's budget then definitely yes.

 

You and others seem to think that Lambert has a halo around his head in that he would act differently to other managers in the same situation.

 

 

Villas-Boas also pulled out of paying £25m for Benteke when his board are clearly prepared to pay £26m for a striker (they just paid that much for Soldado). 

 

I guess AVB must also have a halo round his head?

[CrackpotForeigner]

More about having a head on his shoulders than a halo on his head.

[Troglodyte]

I'm really struggling to see how Kiyotake (or any other 'no.10') would fit into a current team. We ended the system playing 433, with Gabby and Andi either side of Benteke and a midfield 3 of Westwood, Sylla, & Delph. He won't replace Benteke, and I would suspect he's unlike to be pushed into a wider role that either Gabby or Andi were playing.

 

In theory he could play in the middle of midfield at the expense of one of Westwood, Sylla or Delph, in a 4231 formation, but playing that many attacking players would leave the middle of midfield rather exposed.

 

So for those reasons, I'm out - and can't see it happening.

 

It'd have to see Andi and Gabby tracking back regularly (which, to be fair, they do anyway) but possibly sticking to wider positions more often, to open up space in the middle when attacking.  For that reason, maybe we'll see someone like Tonev feature quite frequently out wide.

 

But, for the reasons you've stated, I can't see Lambert busting a gut (or paying over the odds) as we have a decent system already.  Another option in central midfield would be welcome though, and I'd prefer to see an attacking one having brought the much-needed Sylla for the defensive role earlier this year.

[Panto_Villan]

If it was a player he wanted and it was within the club's budget then definitely yes.

 

 

 

You and others seem to think that Lambert has a halo around his head in that he would act differently to other managers in the same situation.

 

 

Is it not conceivable that Lambert has a pot of money to spend and he doesn't want to piss it all up the wall immediately on an overpriced player, because he knows he'll have less money to spend later if he does so? That doesn't mean he's not being backed or has a halo around his head, it just means that he knows there is a finite amount of money available and want to use it wisely.