Stevo985 Posted July 31, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted July 31, 2013 How are Liverpool not doing it? Their biggest signings under Rogers are typically still under 10m and not household names. Spurs and Arsenal also traditionally don't spend big money and pay big wages (though this window seems to have changed things). They normally go for up and coming youth stars from Southhampton (Bale, Walcott, Oxlay) or Croatia/France etc As Zatman has pointed out, they've signed plenty of big names for big money. That's not the "Dortmund model" as I understand it. In fact I'd say signing Daniel Sturridge for £12m is the opposite of it. That's more like the Martin O'Neill model. Again I'm not saying that's a bad thing for Liverpool, I'm just saying I don't see it as the same as how we're approaching things. I actually didn't see Arsenal in your post so yeah I'd agree that the way they do things (or certainly used to) is very much the same thing. No arguments there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArteSuave Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Chelsea have bought Oscar, Hazard, Lukaku, Schurrle, Azpilicueta, Courtois, De Bruyne etc. I suppose they too are following the Dortmund model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted July 31, 2013 Moderator Share Posted July 31, 2013 As I have not seen him specifically say so anywhere I would like you to ask him to what extent he is deliberately and conciously following the Dortmund model.(Which I am all for as it happens).Ta !He was asked about it on the Sky Sports Football show when he was a guest. It was just before the CL final (BVB v BM) so they were discussing Dortmund's model and then they went to Lambert about how he's doing things similarly at Villa. He acknowledged the influence he got over there and went on about how their approach was a way for clubs like us to progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Chelsea have bought Oscar, Hazard, Lukaku, Schurrle, Azpilicueta, Courtois, De Bruyne etc. I suppose they too are following the Dortmund model? That is exactly my point. Everyone is trying to do it. It's not like we have stumbled on to a secret formula for success known only by ourselves and Dortmund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boskos Angel Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Im going this year and i went last year too, tbf Lambert did his best to answer most questions in depth and he also answered a lot of questions i thought he would "skirt" around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Why are you wearing football shoes at the games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArteSuave Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Chelsea have bought Oscar, Hazard, Lukaku, Schurrle, Azpilicueta, Courtois, De Bruyne etc. I suppose they too are following the Dortmund model? That is exactly my point. Everyone is trying to do it. It's not like we have stumbled on to a secret formula for success known only by ourselves and Dortmund. Everyone is trying to buy talented players and mould them into a team, the magical Dortmund model was to do this with unheralded players on low wages for small sums. Liverpool and Chelsea are paying through the arse for highly rated players. That is a different method IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 The thing is though, every club who can't afford to buy their way to the top claim to be following the "Dortmund model". Go onto the Liverpool forums and their fans also talk about how Brendan Rogers is following the Dortmund model. Spurs fans talk about doing it, Arsenal fans as well and probably even teams like Swansea would be hoping to emulate the recent (affordable)success of Dortmund. Pretty much every side in the league, bar the oil rich teams, wants to buy up and coming hungry young talent whilst they are still cheap and develop them into a top team. We don't have some sort of secret plan there, it is how all clubs want to operate. The difference being that the proof is in the pudding when it comes to us. We are buying those young motivated players instead of paying big money for big players. Liverpool, Spurs and even Swansea certainly aren't doing that. It may not be a secret, but of the teams you've mentioned I'd say we're the only team doing it. (I'm not saying we'll succeed) By that logic Dortmund aint following the Dortmund model either, guess someone should tell them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Dortmund have evolved their model though. they are only buying players from the money they have earned from sales. Id still imagine their highest salary is about 40-45k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted July 31, 2013 Moderator Share Posted July 31, 2013 Exactly Zatman. The model is a way of progressing your club. It's obvious that once you get to a certain stage of development as a club via that model that you might modify it to suit your new landscape. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Chelsea have bought Oscar, Hazard, Lukaku, Schurrle, Azpilicueta, Courtois, De Bruyne etc. I suppose they too are following the Dortmund model? That is exactly my point. Everyone is trying to do it. It's not like we have stumbled on to a secret formula for success known only by ourselves and Dortmund. For a combined price of over 100 million. Think you're missing the point here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArteSuave Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 By that logic Dortmund aint following the Dortmund model either, guess someone should tell them Eh? Dortmund have moved on. They're one of the big boys now, that's the point. They knocked out Real and reached the CL final with a team bought for little (except Reus) despite repeatedly having their best player stolen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 That is true. However, Dortmund's low wage/low fee model was forced on them by the dire state of their finances at the time rather than being an active strategy they chose to employ. Now they are richer they are spending big money again and offering much bigger wages. There is not a secret formula, missed by all other managers, where by if you spend small fees and low wages you somehow end up with a better team than other teams who spent big fees and larger wages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArteSuave Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Unless I'm mistaken, nobody thinks there's a secret formula. It's just one of many philosophies that a club can choose to follow. It's a difficult method as it requires excellent scouting, but it's the one that I'm happiest with. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted July 31, 2013 Moderator Share Posted July 31, 2013 The other criteria of the model is buying almost exclusively young. The model creates stars by buying young, cheap talent usually from lower leagues. What most managers do is the 3-year model where they'll buy established stars too for more money on bigger wages. That's the norm because you're buying ready-made players that can hit the ground running. Probably because it's sensible for them to plan for a typical 3-year cycle in their current employ. The pure Dortmund model is high risk as we saw last season, and a poorer manager would've taken us down. That's why I think fewer clubs adopt it. But we'll hopefully see the benefits of it now that we've had our season of initial pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Unless I'm mistaken, nobody thinks there's a secret formula. It's just one of many philosophies that a club can choose to follow. It's a difficult method as it requires excellent scouting, but it's the one that I'm happiest with. Yes but then all success requires excellent scouting. Otherwise you either massivly over pay or end up buying flops. I would suggest that the Dortmund model also requires a large slice of luck. Dortmund had a crop of youth players come through who were comaparable to Man United's Giggs/Scholes/Beckham group and at a time when they had little money to buy bigger name players to stand in their way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 This whole Dortmund model runs soo much deeper than just buyin a few young players and Lambert won't be able to do anything by his own. If we are to follow in the footsteps of Dortmund it will have to be through Lerner reshaping the whole club. I recommend reading these 2 articles from 2010 & late 2012 if you alredy haven't http://swissramble.blogspot.se/2010/10/borussia-dortmunds-road-to-recovery.html http://swissramble.blogspot.se/2012/10/borussia-dortmund-back-in-game.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArteSuave Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I agree that luck is necessary. It's a high risk strategy, but its most definitely distinct from what the likes of Chelsea and Liverpool are currently doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted July 31, 2013 Moderator Share Posted July 31, 2013 I would suggest that the Dortmund model also requires a large slice of luck.No I think you were right the first time. It just requires excellent scouting and trust in your own judgement as a manager. I'd also say it is a system/philosophy that requires an excellent manager to make it work because (and this might be why you're saying luck is required) you don't know how easily these youngsters will cope playing in what is presumably a higher level than they're used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 (edited) Unless I'm mistaken, nobody thinks there's a secret formula. It's just one of many philosophies that a club can choose to follow. It's a difficult method as it requires excellent scouting, but it's the one that I'm happiest with. Yes but then all success requires excellent scouting. Otherwise you either massivly over pay or end up buying flops. I would suggest that the Dortmund model also requires a large slice of luck. Dortmund had a crop of youth players come through who were comaparable to Man United's Giggs/Scholes/Beckham group and at a time when they had little money to buy bigger name players to stand in their way. also not true only Gotze, Schmelzer, Sahin and Reus came through their setup and they had to buy Reus back Edited July 31, 2013 by Zatman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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