BOF Posted February 9, 2007 Author Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2007 how can it be genetic, if any of your ancestors were gay you wouldn't exist That's been answered. Two blondes can give birth to a brunette. Genetics isn't as simple as 'what went before shall be from now on'. ok, but what if blondes were far more likely to reproduce than brunettes; eventually brunettes would die out, and yet there is a steady increase in homosexuality. There is a steady increase in admitting it. It was still rampant in the 50's but no-one talked about it or admitted it. It was all hush hush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablopicasso Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 how can it be genetic, if any of your ancestors were gay you wouldn't exist gay people existed long into the past, however, wether it was socially acceptable, is a reason why we didnt hear much about it... when it was socially acceptable in history, eg, the romans, greeks, present day, etc, then we hear about it more so... but it wasnt so long ago that it was a prisonable offence in this country, therefore, you wouldnt have heard many people shouting from the rooftops that they were a puff.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity-Tom Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Homosexuality actually carries the death penalty in some countries still today! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfcinwales Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Its a long and complex question with an even longer answer I'd guess, no one yet has found. Where do Bisexuals fit as far as the question goes, I wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted February 9, 2007 Author Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2007 I was thinking of that Malcolm and I think with them it is choice, as they effectively can do either. So it will be essentially external influences and them that dictates it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 9, 2007 Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2007 If it's a matter of choice, as some claim, then perhaps they could prove this by choosing to be gay themselves? Obviously, (I imagine), they would reply "don't be so daft I don't want to be Gay" - in other words they are unable to choose to be Gay, because something is stopping them making that decision. They can't actually choose to be gay. "Yes I could choose to, I just don't want to choose to" - Your mind is not wired up to allow you to choose, ergo, you cannot choose. You have the right to choose, theoretically you might claim you could choose, but in practice you can't. There's no such thing as free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 9, 2007 Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2007 Its a long and complex question with an even longer answer I'd guess, no one yet has found. Where do Bisexuals fit as far as the question goes, I wonder. Oi bugger off back to Villa Ta;lk and start an argument in there But as it happens its the Bi thing that makes me think its not all nature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheriffvilla Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 I can't see how it is a choice. The writer of this post gets some freaky thoughts in his head & certainly doesn't choose to have them (I will leave that there :shock: :winkold:) I have no idea why I am attracted to women and not men, why I prefer tall women, why I prefer brunettes, and whatever else. From a scientific point of view it possibly is a long, complicate and unsolved issue. But for a man like me, it's damn simple - you are what you are, end of! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 There's no such thing as free will. Yes there is but don't make me find the last post where we had this debate and resort to copy and paste :-) though your toaster post does deserve another airing .... they would reply "don't be so daft I don't want to be Gay" - in other words they are unable to choose to be Gay, because something is stopping them making that decision. They can't actually choose to be gay. whilst I can see your argument to my eye it's kind of flawed (but I could be having another dim moment) swap "gay" for "serial killer" in your example .. "don't be so daft I don't want to be a serial killer " - in other words they are unable to choose to be a serial killer , because something is stopping them making that decision. They can't actually choose to be a serial killer. in which case what makes a person a serial killer ? surely it comes down to choice ? or are we now looking at a serial killer gene , to go with our Gay gene ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant(aka_eddy) Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Definitely not a choice. That doesnt necessarily mean it is pre-determined or genetic, though that also cannot be discounted entirely. As someone put it so well on the adoption thread - If it was in fact a choice, why would anyone have made it when they would have faced so much adversity in the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 But for a man like me, it's damn simple - you are what you are, end of! yes but were you born as the " what you are ", or was your life shaped by events and influences , what \who made you support Villa for example , what made you choose that bit of totty for your Avatar (who is she btw , i feel the need to research her on the web ) what if you were a soldier for 30 years and one day decided you want to be a pacifist and refuse to fight having maybe already killed 30+ men prior to this point ..who are you then ?? were you born a pacifist or born a non pacifist , and how did you change if you are born " what you are " ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant(aka_eddy) Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Definitely not a choice. That doesnt necessarily mean it is pre-determined or genetic, though that also cannot be discounted entirely. As someone put it so well on the adoption thread - If it was in fact a choice, why would anyone have made it when they would have faced so much adversity in the past? Dont really know why i'm quoting myself but when i wrote that i was thinking that it is entirelly possible it is a product of nurture. I.e. environmentally learned. Basically I dont know why people are gay but I dont think it's a choice. But it's just occured to me that in fact entirely the opposite could be happening. What happens when you put two hamsters - brother and sister i might add - in a cage long term. They ****. Were the Romans as fussy as 1970's Britain about homosexuality/bisexuality? Nope. Perhaps from the moment we are born our society represses our urge to **** anything that moves. Less for some of us than others! But seriously, I think thats as likely as anything else. And no, it not confession time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted February 9, 2007 Author Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2007 what made you choose that bit of totty for your Avatar (who is she btw , i feel the need to research her on the web ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablopicasso Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 thats completely different... as you grow and learn about politics, etc, right from wrong, morals, etc, decisions then come into play... as i said, both of my gay brothers have both said they would prefer not to be gay, and one tried to take his own life because he was fighing his natural urges because he didnt want to be gay... in the end, they are the way they were born and for them, its natural to be attracted to men... for me, its natural to be attracted to women... as for the bi sexual comment by malcolm, thats a very good point.. maybe bi sexuals have a mixture of the genes that would predetermine natural sexual preference... something i heard recently, is that we all start out as women in the womb and thats why we all have nipples, despite them being pointless for men... maybe in this stage, some men get too many female genes and that makes them find men attractive and in bi sexual cases, enough for them to find both attractive... and as mentioned previously, its more accepted by society now, therefore, lots more people are admitting their true natural feelings, rather than supressing or hiding it and being miserable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheriffvilla Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 But for a man like me, it's damn simple - you are what you are, end of! yes but were you born as the " what you are ", or was your life shaped by events and influences , what \who made you support Villa for example , what made you choose that bit of totty for your Avatar (who is she btw , i feel the need to research her on the web ) what if you were a soldier for 30 years and one day decided you want to be a pacifist and refuse to fight having maybe already killed 30+ men prior to this point ..who are you then ?? were you born a pacifist or born a non pacifist , and how did you change if you are born " what you are " ?? Well, I'm pretty certain I am 'what I am' through me being that way when I was born. Yes, me being a Villa fan, for example, is something that was drilled into me, but to me my sexuality is no different than the colour of my eyes. Hey, I grew up - and still live - on a council estate, didn't try in school, got drunk for the first time at 10 and took cocaine for the first time at 14. I went to college for about six weeks but left because nearly all my mates were working & could afford to go out up Town & I wanted a piece of that. I now work in a shitty job with crap pay & half the staff above me are idiots. So trust me, I do not pretend to be the smartest bloke on here by any stretch of the imagination. But this just seems SO simple to me. Some things we choose are based on experience out of life, and some things we are born with. Maybe I am wrong, but I daresay no-one will convince me otherwise. On a lighter note, the lady in the avatar is Sarah Chalke. She is an American actress, who I discovered through 'Scrubs', which is one of my favourite TV shows - available on E4, Paramount Comedy 1 or abc1. So now go and learn about her :winkold: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 or maybe the fact than men have their G spot up the rectum means that men were designed \born to be Gay and it's the straight ones that are fighting the urges by falling for women ..maybe the Bible was a mis translation , maybe God really did create Adam and Steve ...(sorry to use that Joke again ,but i do like it) Interesting though that 2/3rds of voters on this topic have voted for something that has absolutely no scientific proof , wonder what results a poll on the existence of God or green men on mars would produce , as evidence would suggest 2/3 rds would say both exist ?? not knocking those that voted BTW , just my surprise at how the voting has gone , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Where do Bisexuals fit as far as the question goes, I wonder. I think trains have special parts of the comaprtment for them, next to the toilets. Seriously though, I can see it would be an entirely natural twist of genetics to throw out the odd gay male. It sort of protects the male line in the community, puts a "fire break" in to say a virus or illness that may have affected straight males. Say in times of wars of old, when homosexuality was frowned upon, then all the straights go out into pitched bloody battles, leaving sets of male genes still alive and safe at home, but in a sort of "time capsuule of their own sexulaity", preserving the genes for a future generation if something happened to all the straight males. Ok, sounds far fetched these days, but it may be a historic thing left over from befre we were even humans, (we are 63% sharing genes with a cabbage, sha supporters possibly even more). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCV Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 I can't see how it is a choice. The writer of this post gets some freaky thoughts in his head & certainly doesn't choose to have them (I will leave that there :shock: :winkold:) I have no idea why I am attracted to women and not men, why I prefer tall women, why I prefer brunettes, and whatever else. From a scientific point of view it possibly is a long, complicate and unsolved issue. But for a man like me, it's damn simple - you are what you are, end of! It is because you are brought up in the norm that is already preset in society. You have all been brought up that men should go with women since childhood. I believe its the environment and experiences that determine your sexuality with a little hint of genetics. about 80% nurture, 20% nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Shakespeare was apparently gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 I feel its mostly to do with Genetics, but that does open a can of worms too, because if the "cure" is found, wouldn't most Gays have the cure? Especailly around the difficult teen years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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