Zatman Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 2 hours ago, BOF said: Please please please happen. Losing Kane and hiring Roberto Martinez. What odds on relegation? Bringing Big Sam in at Christmas to fix the damage 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted May 25, 2021 Moderator Share Posted May 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, Zatman said: Bringing Big Sam in at Christmas to fix the damage Well it makes sense. He has never been relega... oh hang on. EDIT : Actually he'll be at Crystal Palace by then trying to get them out of the relegation zone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 These things drive me mad, of course it’s the Scum but still. They seem to write them for all the sides “If [manager] gets these [lots of very expensive and completely unrealistic] signings they’ll be great”. Poch isn’t even their manager, yet he’s got a water right plan to get them back into the champions league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted May 25, 2021 Moderator Share Posted May 25, 2021 18 minutes ago, Genie said: These things drive me mad, of course it’s the Scum but still. They seem to write them for all the sides “If [manager] gets these [lots of very expensive and completely unrealistic] signings they’ll be great”. Poch isn’t even their manager, yet he’s got a water right plan to get them back into the champions league Well I'm as much Spurs' manager as he is, so I'll have a go. Dearest Daniel, snogs, can I have Lewandowski, De Bruyne, Grealish, Ruben Dias and Koulibaly please. I'll try and be top 4. Kthxbye. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Keyblade Posted May 25, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 25, 2021 9 hours ago, Genie said: Exactly! It’s funny how some coaches get this reputation as being top drawer with little to support it. Despite having a pair of attackers that cost £400m, one of those probably the best player on the planet right now, they only scored 5 more goals than Lyon who finished 4th. There's his 5 years at Spurs as evidence, not to mention his time at Southampton where he took them from relegation candidates to European contenders in 1 season. He completely transformed Spurs into title contenders, got them to a CL final despite them never passing the QF stage in their history as well as 2 other cup finals. All on a relative shoestring budget compared to their rivals (like literally a fraction of most of their spending). They spent 386m during his 5 years there, for comparison, this is what their rivals spent in that time period: Man City: 973m Man Utd: 819m Chelsea: 791m (transfer embargo for 1 year) Liverpool: 640 Arsenal: 585 Everton: 538 Spurs: 386 In that time they had an average finish of 3rd, which puts them 2nd behind City for the average finishes among that lot in that time. For reference: Man City: 2.5 Spurs: 3 Arsenal: 4.5 Liverpool: 4.5 United: 4.75 Chelsea: 4.75 Everton: 8.5 His job at Spurs was honestly nothing short of remarkable. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Keyblade said: His job at Spurs was honestly nothing short of remarkable. He improved them slightly, it’s not like other managers who have completely changed a teams fortunes over a few seasons (Eddie Howe, Sean Dyche, even Roy at Palace). Average position over Poch’s 5 seasons at Spurs was 3.4 The previous 5 years average at 4.8. Harry finished 4th twice in 3 seasons with them. Good manager, not great or remarkable imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 Just now, Genie said: He improved them slightly, it’s not like other managers who have completely changed a teams fortunes over a few seasons (Eddie Howe, Sean Dyche, even Roy at Palace). Average position over Poch’s 5 seasons at Spurs was 3.4 The previous 5 years average at 4.8. Harry finished 4th twice in 3 seasons with them. Good manager, not great or remarkable imo. This is the kind of thing someone would say when they don't know the context of the scope of the rebuild he had to undertake. They still had Redknapp era geriatrics like Kaboul and Dawson at the heart of their defence as well Edabayor that all needed replacing as well as complete dud signings like Chiriches, Paulinho and Soldado. Any Spurs fan will tell you that the magnitude of the rebuild after AVB and Sherwood was enormous. And they did it with a comparable miniscule budget. That they came out the other side of it a better team in just 2 seasons is remarkable. Even assuming for argument's sake that he took over a good squad and didn't need to rebuild, actually having upward mobility while spending considerably less than their rivals is still a very impressive feat. They were never title contenders before Pochettino. The best they did was scrape into 4th place on the final day once under Redknapp, and again a couple of years later (but they missed out on the CL due to Chelsea winning it). Under Poch they mounted serious title challenges, once in 2015/16 and again in 2016/17 where they finished 2nd with 86 points and a +60 goal difference. Only 2 teams in PL history have ever done better as runner ups: Liverpool's crazy 97 point season in 18/19, and United in 2011/12 when they lost out to City on goal difference with that famous Aguero goal. For reference, that would have been enough to win the league this season ahead of City on goal difference. It's more than just a "slight" improvement, let's be honest here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) I don’t think Pochettino ‘transformed’ Spurs, they were a good side before he went there and were a good side when he left. A transformation is Moyes and West Ham, going from 16th to 6th in a season. Edited May 25, 2021 by bannedfromHandV 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 Just now, bannedfromHandV said: I don’t think Pochettino ‘transformed’ Spurs, they were a good side before he went there and were a good side when he left. A transformation is Moyes and West Ham, going from 17th to 6th in a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 Semantics. Going from an ageing top 5/6 club to title contenders while lowering the average age of the squad to the lowest in the league on a relatively low budget is impressive regardless of what word you would use to call the jump. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Genie said: He improved them slightly, it’s not like other managers who have completely changed a teams fortunes over a few seasons (Eddie Howe, Sean Dyche, even Roy at Palace). Average position over Poch’s 5 seasons at Spurs was 3.4 The previous 5 years average at 4.8. Harry finished 4th twice in 3 seasons with them. Good manager, not great or remarkable imo. Yes Redknapp did very well with them aswell, took over a very dysfunctional squad and got them quickly back into top 6 (although it was largely re-signing players they've previously sold like Defoe IIRC). So hang on Poch didn't do that well at Spurs as they'd finished 4th about 5 years previously yet some guy called Genie said Mourinho was doing o.k hovering between 6th-8th and bombing out of cup competitions in hilarious fashion because well it's Spurs and what else can he do there? Have I got that one right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 8 minutes ago, Keyblade said: Semantics. Going from an ageing top 5/6 club to title contenders while lowering the average age of the squad to the lowest in the league on a relatively low budget is impressive regardless of what word you would use to call the jump. To help your argument a little bit, Spurs had just had a season of Vilas Boas and Tim Sherwood managing them so you can imagine the sort of chaos their squad was in! They were in post Bale malaise aswell so think it will be similar to what the new manager inherits this summer with Kane leaving. When Pochettino took over they had likes of Younes Kaboul, Paulinho, Adebayor, Andros Townsend all either being disrupted influences in dressing room or not doing anywhere enough on the pitch. Think he gave a few of them chances during his first season but bombed them during 2015 and freshened up the team. They then finished 3rd and 2nd so was very impressive body of work for those years. Always think that Real Madrid game they won in late 2017 was when they probably peaked under Poch and was slow decline afterwards and them losing the CL final the following season just meant half their squad wanted to leave or lose motivation, very similar game to us losing the 2000 fa cup final and long term knock down in status that did to us. I'd be amazed if Spurs appoint anyone this summer that gets them to the heights Poch did in next 5 season as they're in a very similar situation now to summer 2014. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, VillaChris said: Yes Redknapp did very well with them aswell, took over a very dysfunctional squad and got them quickly back into top 6 (although it was largely re-signing players they've previously sold like Defoe IIRC). So hang on Poch didn't do that well at Spurs as they'd finished 4th about 5 years previously yet some guy called Genie said Mourinho was doing o.k hovering between 6th-8th and bombing out of cup competitions in hilarious fashion because well it's Spurs and what else can he do there? Have I got that one right? Hmmm I think you’re putting 2 and 2 together and getting 76 I’ve said Poch is a good manager for slightly improving the 5 year average of his tenure versus the 5 years before. He improved them by 1 and a bit league places. Not sure what that has to do with Jose Mourinho who guided Spurs to a cup final, and into Europe. Sacking him possibly cost them an extremely rare piece of silverware. Maybe you could say Jose slightly under achieved, but not massively. Same for Poch, he pushed the needle on a little bit, but not massively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, Genie said: Hmmm I think you’re putting 2 and 2 together and getting 76 I’ve said Poch is a good manager for slightly improving the 5 year average of his tenure versus the 5 years before. He improved them by 1 and a bit league places. Not sure what that has to do with Jose Mourinho who guided Spurs to a cup final, and into Europe. Sacking him possibly cost them an extremely rare piece of silverware. Maybe you could say Jose slightly under achieved, but not massively. Same for Poch, he pushed the needle on a little bit, but not massively. Winning the league cup final was never going to get Kane to stay so while nice one for their fans would've meant little to club in long run (e.g Juande Ramos winning it in 2008). Us getting to it last season was a better achievement given all Mourinho had to do was beat Chelsea (fair enough but I presume they didn't put their full 11 out due to how early in the season it was) Stoke CIty and Brentford. That's it as they have a bye in another round due to Orient squad having covid. Spurs went out of FA cup conceding 5 at Everton and need I say more about the Zagreb exit, disaster given that has CL place as pot of gold at end of it so to me those are the cup competitions you judge Mourinho on (just as Poch had a bad knack of losing cup semi finals which would be my big criticism of him rather than league performances). Just an odd metric to me, Pochettinho does 3rd, 2nd, 3rd and 4th and it's alright. 18 months into his reign Mourinho has Spurs on course for probably 8th or 9th finish if he'd completely the full season and no problem can be found. Not even bringing 19/20 into discussion given he took over mid season but just checked and after he won his first game at West Ham they were above Man. United in the table who eventually finished 3rd so it wasn't completely impossible task even if very difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 15 minutes ago, VillaChris said: To help your argument a little bit, Spurs had just had a season of Vilas Boas and Tim Sherwood managing them so you can imagine the sort of chaos their squad was in! They were in post Bale malaise aswell so think it will be similar to what the new manager inherits this summer with Kane leaving. When Pochettino took over they had likes of Younes Kaboul, Paulinho, Adebayor, Andros Townsend all either being disrupted influences in dressing room or not doing anywhere enough on the pitch. Think he gave a few of them chances during his first season but bombed them during 2015 and freshened up the team. They then finished 3rd and 2nd so was very impressive body of work for those years. Always think that Real Madrid game they won in late 2017 was when they probably peaked under Poch and was slow decline afterwards and them losing the CL final the following season just meant half their squad wanted to leave or lose motivation, very similar game to us losing the 2000 fa cup final and long term knock down in status that did to us. I'd be amazed if Spurs appoint anyone this summer that gets them to the heights Poch did in next 5 season as they're in a very similar situation now to summer 2014. Seriously, it was looking really bleak for them that summer 2014. As bad as it is for them now if not worse. They absolutely flubbed the Bale money for starters, and 2013-14 was the worst season for them since the Martin Jol days at least. The football uner AVB was Lambert-tier. It was better under Sherwood, but as we would lamentably come to find out, he was a madman who was playing a midfield of Sigurdsson - Eriksen against teams like Liverpool (and getting walloped) . That they managed to turn around that car crash was a minor miracle. This isn't even getting into his ability of improving players. From his Southampton days with the likes of Lallana, Schneiderlin, Rodriguez etc. At Spurs he turned Eriksen into a truly world class playmaker, second only to De Bruyne in the world. Harry Kane went from multiple failed loans at lower league clubs to quickly becoming the world's second best if not best striker. He signed Dele Alli from League One and turned him into an elite attacking midfielder. 74 goal involvements in 137 appearances before he turned 22 is crazy (people seriously forget how good he was). He turned Son into one of the best left sided forwards in Europe. Danny Rose went from a string of unremarkable loans to the best left back in the league etc etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 Yeah Kyle Walker also stepped it up more as think he had a really good season the year after his loan with us (11/12) but then had injury issues and fell off the radar. Trippier came in and did well for a few seasons aswell so with Vertongthen-Toby being world class CB duo they had a very strong backline in those days compared to now which is one area they've massively declined, Eric Dier was even an o.k player in those days aswell. At same time Kane and Son were playing out of their minds start of the season. It was never sustainable but what seemed to spook Mourinho was that freak West Ham 3-3 game and they went from playing a front foot game for 10 games to suddenly ultra defensive from 1-0 up against many average teams (lost points v likes of Palace, Fulham and Wolves over xmas when 1 up with 10 minutes left) and that approach eventually got him the sack. I do think over time Poch would've found a way to get more out of Lo Celso and Ndomble as they are talented players and proven in other leagues so interested what next manager does with those two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, VillaChris said: Just an odd metric to me People can do this all day long. Oh how embarrassing they conceded 5 at Everton (not particularly embarrassing tbh), but what about the 6 they scored at Old Trafford, how many people do that? or 7 in the Europa League? Does that happen every week? Most people would look at Spurs and have then in or around 4th place. Poch averaged a little above that, great. Jose, just below. Neither were radical managers who dramatically improved or ruined Spurs. However, finishing 2nd in France with that squad is a major cause for concern. Edited May 25, 2021 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 Yes they were very good at start of season, I'm not saying they weren't. They were never going to win the league but I dunno falling down from 1st to about 8th in about three months seemed a bit of an issue and the cup exits added to it. Liverpool also had the same fall but they at least rallied and somehow finished 3rd in the end. They sill had Kane and Son around for all but 3 league games in that period so Mourinho just going all out defensive when leading in games basically killed them and cost them around 10 points over the season. That's the thing though, he was supposed to be that step up in mentality from Poch and instead has done some long term damage to the squad that will take a few seasons to fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 Just now, VillaChris said: Yes they were very good at start of season, I'm not saying they weren't. They were never going to win the league but I dunno falling down from 1st to about 8th in about three months seemed a bit of an issue and the cup exits added to it. Liverpool also had the same fall but they at least rallied and somehow finished 3rd in the end. They sill had Kane and Son around for all but 3 league games in that period so Mourinho just going all out defensive when leading in games basically killed them and cost them around 10 points over the season. That's the thing though, he was supposed to be that step up in mentality from Poch and instead has done some long term damage to the squad that will take a few seasons to fix. I think the idea that Spurs not getting over the line was a mentality issue that bringing in Mourinho would solve kind of shows why they're in this position now. It was their lack of squad depth that made them fall short under Poch. In terms of starting XI's, they were probably the best in the league. They had the best defence, a top 2/3 goalkeeper, very solid midfield with Dembele and Wanyama, the best striker in the league, the best or second best playmaker in the league etc. But beyond that, they had almost nothing. I remember an FA Cup semi-final I think it was against Chelsea where the game was in the balance, both teams made subs. Spurs brought on Kyle Walker to play left wing, and Chelsea brought on Eden Hazard. The disparity couldn't have been more apparent then. And that's all on Levy. Incredibly, they didn't buy another player for 18 months after that final. Even still, they somehow got to a CL final in that time. These squad deficiencies isn't something a simple managerial change will fix. Seriously, what the hell is Mourinho supposed to do with Dier and Sanchez at the back? The idea that this team would have won a trophy because their coach is Mourinho is so laughable. They deserve what they're going through now (well not the fans, but Levy and co). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted May 26, 2021 Share Posted May 26, 2021 11 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said: I don’t think Pochettino ‘transformed’ Spurs, they were a good side before he went there and were a good side when he left. A transformation is Moyes and West Ham, going from 16th to 6th in a season. Or, dare I say it, that Dean Smith bloke at Aston Villa, what he has achieved in 2 seasons is quite remarkable 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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