KennyPowers Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 What even is the argument here anyway? It may be a slight notch up from a payday loan company but it's let's face it a pretty shitty sponsor. I bet plenty but gambling has gotten way too far into football. I'd feel better if it was a company I had some respect for like Pinnacle but it's an Asian firm I've never heard of who have no presence in the UK. It stinks a bit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I've been away from the site for a few hours....living, loving....well actually neither of those are strictly true. Anyways... BOF made a good point about Nestle. The 'outrage' on here is kind of an easy target outrage - if you can call a betting site an easy target - but almost akin to Daily Mail outrage. "I've never watched Family Guy but I hear it's full of swears and fart jokes therefore it should be banned". Now, my original point was that IF Dafabet causes that amount of aggrievance, then surely Carlsberg, Nestle, McDonalds, Coca Cola, Apple, Toyota and god knows who else must also invoke the same level of passion, right? What actually seems to transpire, to a handful I must add, is that it's more of a disappointment that it's not a huge brand name that's sponsoring us, and thus playing the gambling site is shit mantra. If a gambling site is big enough for Real Madrid, they're big enough for us imo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennyPowers Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Nestle, Family Guy, Apple, Toyota? I don't have a clue what you are on about. If Dafabet were by far the best offer I understand it but it's disappointing we can't: - yes, get a bigger brand (I have literally never heard of this company and I gamble a fair bit) - get a sponsor with a local connection - get a sponsor we can form a long-term association with - get a sponsor that isn't dedicated to screwing people out of their money 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 How much money are they paying us? Frankly as somebody who gambles a wee bit (and yes I too am in control, isn't that something) I'm not about to be a hypocritical twunt and take the moral high ground. Just tell me how much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) Nestle, Family Guy, Apple, Toyota? I don't have a clue what you are on about. If Dafabet were by far the best offer I understand it but it's disappointing we can't: - yes, get a bigger brand (I have literally never heard of this company and I gamble a fair bit) - get a sponsor with a local connection - get a sponsor we can form a long-term association with - get a sponsor that isn't dedicated to screwing people out of their money You're in la la land chief. How do you think someone could afford the millions needed to sponsor the club without "screwing people out of money"? How many local businesses can you name that would have the financial clout to put up the cash? Global sport, global marketing, global world. Edited June 12, 2013 by bannedfromHandV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCforever1991 Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) Nestle, Family Guy, Apple, Toyota? I don't have a clue what you are on about. If Dafabet were by far the best offer I understand it but it's disappointing we can't: - yes, get a bigger brand (I have literally never heard of this company and I gamble a fair bit) - get a sponsor with a local connection - get a sponsor we can form a long-term association with - get a sponsor that isn't dedicated to screwing people out of their money Every company does this... Edited June 12, 2013 by AVFCforever1991 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted June 13, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2013 Nestle, Family Guy, Apple, Toyota? I don't have a clue what you are on about. If Dafabet were by far the best offer I understand it but it's disappointing we can't: - yes, get a bigger brand (I have literally never heard of this company and I gamble a fair bit) - get a sponsor with a local connection - get a sponsor we can form a long-term association with - get a sponsor that isn't dedicated to screwing people out of their money Every company does this... Exactly. Look hard enough, and every sponsor has something to hate about it. So where do we draw the line? As a family club, an easy rule of thumb is Helen Lovejoy's "won't somebody please think of the children!". That is, if a child were engaged in the activity promoted by your sponsor - would it be grounds for prosecution? Can a child legally engage with a prostitute? Can a child legally drink alcohol? Can a child legally smoke cigarettes? Can a child legally walk into a Casino or place a bet? As such, you could do better than put a porn, alcohol, tobacco or gambling site on the front of your shirt. And that is the only point most of us are trying to get across. While I'm certain it makes good financial sense, it's personally disappointing that Villa signed DaftBet as their sponsor compared to a more "family" or "mainstream" business. Moral high ground? Nope. Do as you will. You don't have a problem with DaftBet? Good for you. As for me, I will show my displeasure by not buying the shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 13, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2013 Nestle, Family Guy, Apple, Toyota? I don't have a clue what you are on about. If Dafabet were by far the best offer I understand it but it's disappointing we can't: - yes, get a bigger brand (I have literally never heard of this company and I gamble a fair bit) - get a sponsor with a local connection - get a sponsor we can form a long-term association with - get a sponsor that isn't dedicated to screwing people out of their money The vast majority of football sponsors aren't "bigger brands" Unless you're a team that will be regularly winning titles and playing in Europe then it's very very seldom that a well established company will sponsor you. They don't need the kind of exposure that comes with sponsoring a team in the bottom half of the premier league. They already get that, there's no benefit to them splashing 8 million quid or whatever on putting their logo on our shirts. The additional exposure is absolutely minimal for them. Any big companies that sponsor football teams do it as a partnership, rather than for exposure. It's so people will then associate their brand with that football team. And as harsh as it is to say it, we aren't the most attractive club to be associated with in that manner. Big companies want to be associated with winning trophies and playing in the CHampions League. The kind of companies that sponsor teams like us are usually startup (ish) companies or companies trying to break into the UK market who need to get their name out there so their brand gets more recognisable. That's why a hell of a lot of time our sponsor is someone we've never heard of. How many of us had ever heard of DWS, 32Red.com, FXPro or Genting before they sponsored us? I'd wager not many. This carries over into the long term association point. Again, the kind of companies that sponsor us are looking for short term exposure. We're not the kind of club you form a long term partnership with as I mentioned above. Again, those kind of clubs are the kind that will be in Europe every year and challenging for trophies. How many teams in the Premier League have had their sponsor for more than a couple of seasons at most? Not many, and the ones that do are the top 6 or 7 clubs. As for the local connection, yeah that would be nice. But would they pay as much as our current sponsor? Probably not. And I'm not sure we're currently in a position where we can turn our nose up at an extra 50% sponsorship every year for the matter of having a local company on our shirts instead of one no-body's heard of. As for your last point? Wake up and smell the coffee, bro. Every company screws people out of money. That's business. And Dafabet are no worse at it than 32Red, Genting, FXPro, or any other betting company we've had as our official betting partner over the past however many years. Banks, insurance groups, beers, gambling sites, loan companies etc. They all sponsor football teams and they all screw customers out of money. Ours is no worse than anyone else's. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) Nestle, Family Guy, Apple, Toyota? I don't have a clue what you are on about. If Dafabet were by far the best offer I understand it but it's disappointing we can't: - yes, get a bigger brand (I have literally never heard of this company and I gamble a fair bit) - get a sponsor with a local connection - get a sponsor we can form a long-term association with - get a sponsor that isn't dedicated to screwing people out of their money Every company does this... Exactly. Look hard enough, and every sponsor has something to hate about it. So where do we draw the line? As a family club, an easy rule of thumb is Helen Lovejoy's "won't somebody please think of the children!". That is, if a child were engaged in the activity promoted by your sponsor - would it be grounds for prosecution? Can a child legally engage with a prostitute? Can a child legally drink alcohol? Can a child legally smoke cigarettes? Can a child legally walk into a Casino or place a bet? As such, you could do better than put a porn, alcohol, tobacco or gambling site on the front of your shirt. And that is the only point most of us are trying to get across. While I'm certain it makes good financial sense, it's personally disappointing that Villa signed DaftBet as their sponsor compared to a more "family" or "mainstream" business. Moral high ground? Nope. Do as you will. You don't have a problem with DaftBet? Good for you. As for me, I will show my displeasure by not buying the shirt. Oz, you at least acknowledge that if you are to object to a gambling site on moral ground, then you should really object to a beer company too. I think it's a lot worse if a fast food site, that specifically targets kids, was on the shirt. Or a company with a terrible human rights record for employees as BOF mentioned, but that's just me. If I'm to be facetious, can a child legally drive a car? No Does irresponsible driving ruin lives? Yes Therefore you'd have to say no to Jaguar / Landrover too right? Because all gambling and booze horror stories come from when abused, not when used responsibly. Edited June 13, 2013 by StanBalaban Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted June 13, 2013 Moderator Share Posted June 13, 2013 Football isn't exactly moral or ethical either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 13, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2013 Therefore you'd have to say no to Jaguar / Landrover too right? Woah woah woah, let's not get too hasty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Therefore you'd have to say no to Jaguar / Landrover too right? Woah woah woah, let's not get too hasty! Of course not, but I was using Oz's rule of thumb to be facetious. I will say that, whilst I don't have kids, I do have a young niece and nephew - both of whom are Villa fans. I'd prefer and welcome them to ask questions about gambling site, or drinking or anything else demmed taboo so that the illicit allure and mystique is subsided through education. Pretending kids aren't exposed to these things is nonsence, so I'd rather they grew up informed and responsible if they choose to partake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) - get a sponsor that isn't dedicated to screwing people out of their money An incorrect statement imo. Bookmakers offer a form of entertainment. For every horse race, football bet, roulette spin, poker hand - there will be a winning customer - no doubt more. The entertainment part is trying to make that winner - you. Screwing people out of money? Nah. They have a product and they sell it well. For me they are not screwing people any more than insurance companies, petrol stations, Asda, Local Pubs and even our beloved Aston Villa. At least with gambling you have a choice and there is no set price. Edited June 13, 2013 by Woodytom 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lp_villa830 Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Who cares if it a Gambling company who offered us the most money. Imagine the uproar on here if we lost Benteke and Weimann because we couldn't offer them better deals to stay. Solely because we turned down a better sponsorship deal just because they are in the legitimate business of gambling. Their is a lot of snobbery on here? If we want to compete we can not cut off superior financial deals because it does not suit certain fans expectations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) I don't like gambling and as such the companies involved in the industry, but I don't like a hell of a lot of companies. I'm not keen on rampant capitalism and the way it is in football, but that's the playing field Ason Villa competes on. It could operate on a more ethical business plan, it will only make us less competitive and we'd be pissing in the wind. I wouldn't buy a shirt with a sponsor on it unless it was a charity or an ethical business - if there is such a thing. I'll buy a retro sponsor-less shirt instead and that way I'm making my stand, without damaging the club. Edited June 13, 2013 by Kingfisher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryVernison Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 We've announced a second sponsor specifically for that away shirt we released yesterday: 'Daftakit'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted June 13, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2013 I do wonder if some of the negativity is because Randy (through the general iirc) suggested that we didn't renew with 32red because he didn't think that a gambling company "fit" with the clubs ethos. We were all proud of the club taking an ethical stance and then more so because we then did the acorns thing. I bet (forgive the pun) that if that hadn't happened, less people might not object so much to the dafabet deal. As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather we didn't support gambling but I'm not going to get too exercised about it. If they're putting a big chunk of money into the club, that'll do for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conorm Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) Nestle, Family Guy, Apple, Toyota? I don't have a clue what you are on about. If Dafabet were by far the best offer I understand it but it's disappointing we can't: - yes, get a bigger brand (I have literally never heard of this company and I gamble a fair bit) - get a sponsor with a local connection - get a sponsor we can form a long-term association with - get a sponsor that isn't dedicated to screwing people out of their money Every company does this... Exactly. Look hard enough, and every sponsor has something to hate about it. So where do we draw the line? As a family club, an easy rule of thumb is Helen Lovejoy's "won't somebody please think of the children!". That is, if a child were engaged in the activity promoted by your sponsor - would it be grounds for prosecution? Can a child legally engage with a prostitute? Can a child legally drink alcohol? Can a child legally smoke cigarettes? Can a child legally walk into a Casino or place a bet? As such, you could do better than put a porn, alcohol, tobacco or gambling site on the front of your shirt. And that is the only point most of us are trying to get across. While I'm certain it makes good financial sense, it's personally disappointing that Villa signed DaftBet as their sponsor compared to a more "family" or "mainstream" business. Moral high ground? Nope. Do as you will. You don't have a problem with DaftBet? Good for you. As for me, I will show my displeasure by not buying the shirt. A sensible post and I agree that it is a personal matter as to whether Dafabet or similar offends. I couldn't care less (in that I care about the argument but Dafabet specifically sits fine with me) and, certainly, there are companies out there who have more dubious human rights records and ethical issues in the very way they do business - far and away more offensive than an otherwise straightforward gambling company. And, just like you say, it is a personal mater as to whether we engage with or support these companies. It is almost impossible to live in the modern world without doing so - all we can do is work within what we are personally comfortable with. And not buying the shirt is the sensible response given your personal objections. So, kudos for a mature and sensible post. However ( ), quoting Helen Lovejoy in all of this!? Wow. I mean, she may indeed be likely to cry out for the children in this situation - but you can be sure it would be in a scene which is ridiculing the very outrage that this thread is teeming with. If we are at the point where Helen Lovelyjoy is being wheeled out, we need to shut up shop and agree that we've gone over the top. Edited June 13, 2013 by conorm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 13, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2013 Therefore you'd have to say no to Jaguar / Landrover too right? Woah woah woah, let's not get too hasty! Of course not, but I was using Oz's rule of thumb to be facetious. Doesn't matter anyway. I can tell you now that Jaguar Land Rover will NEVER sponsor Aston Villa. Jaguar as an individual brand wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility, but still very very unlikely and certainly not in the near future. But Land Rover won't ever be on our shirts unless something at the company was to change drastically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryVernison Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 To be honest there are far worse things to be supporting than gambling. I'd hate to be a Newcastle, Blackpool or Hearts fan who parades 'Wonga' around every time they put their club's shirt on. That is an enterprise set up purely to take advantage of the dis-advantaged. Gambling is like Drinking or any other vice; done in moderation, and with amounts you can afford, it causes no real harm, and can actually act as a source of entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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