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Surveillance in the US reaches new levels


CVByrne

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Still, surveillance is growing at a rapid rate, even if some of that stuff seems largely over estimated one cannot ignore the fact of how much it has grown in the last 20 years, and what about 20 years in the future. Heck what about 40?

 

They just instilled DLD over here in Norway in 2012. Basically a information centers that logs everything people do on the internet for an extended period of time. Think it`s 6 months or so. Dunno, I just don`t like the change and the whole talk about it being ridiculous that someone would actually give a damn what you are doing on the internet should not matter one bit, that is frankly missing the point entirely. And that`s only internet trafficking. I agree that we should be mostly concerned about companies that use that information and make money on it, that is turning into a huge industry by itself.

 

Either way, I don`t like the way its moving forward. Privacy will eventually be a thing of the past, unless you lock yourself in the basement. I mean even certain clothing stores are open for having cameras in the store that will recognize you and remember what you bought last time and such. Again, how will this be in 30 years? Would every store have something equivalent to this? Maybe its just me being tin foil hat, dunno this just rubs me the wrong way.

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Analytic s is one of the big areas in IT within enterprise sized users especially. If you look at exactly what is being collected here then it would certainly fall under what some call "Big Brother". Interestingly you never hear people moan when they get benefits from this like ease of use solutions, targetted specifically for what the "customer" needs. 

 

I choose to give Google my data in exchange for the use of their services. A conscious decision by myself. My phone records are private and only if I pose a threat to others or am suspected of commiting a crime can access to that data be released to a 3rd party (ie the Government) 

 

What the NSA is doing here is basically assuming everyone is guilty and getting all their data, then one by one eliminating people from the "suspect list" if their activities are deemed normal. A computer program will no doubt be used to "determine" this. 

 

So where do we draw the line? Once all the data is alowed to be collected on everything people do for anti terrorism reasons. Then why not use this data for domestic crime, say serial killers. Why not then use computers to search for keywords in phone conversations. 

 

We have all this data now, why not give it to the IRS and help reduce get tax evasion. Now this being the US and it's big business corruption of politics, why can't the big media groups get access to this data to see who is  pirating movies from them. The system is there, just pay the Senators and you have your deal.

 

We have all this data so why can't we use it to prevent bullying in schools. We can track the interactions with bullies and victims....

 

on and on and on.....

 

Innocence until proven guilty, privacy laws. Where do we draw the line? Even if there was a terrorist attack, how many people could they kill? Is that as many people who die by gun related deaths in a week??

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I have no problem with my data being collected and stored. I understand that is the deal I make when I get a mobile phone, or use google services etc.. I am consciously making a decision on my data there. But that data is private and only with my consent or if I'm suspected of a crime can it be handed over to anyone else. This is a fundamental right that cannot be abused and should not. 

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But that data is private and only with my consent or if I'm suspected of a crime can it be handed over to anyone else

Well that's simply not true Conor and I'm surprised you're saying it.  Do you really believe that?  Your data can be warrantlessly requested from google on a whim.  The justification can be anything they decide it to be, but it doesn't change the fact that your data is only 'private' in so far as they haven't bothered to look at it yet.  Not because it's locked away safe.

 

 

To clarify. I use 'data' in the context of personal or sensitive information.

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I have no problem with my data being collected and stored. I understand that is the deal I make when I get a mobile phone, or use google services etc.. I am consciously making a decision on my data there. But that data is private and only with my consent or if I'm suspected of a crime can it be handed over to anyone else. This is a fundamental right that cannot be abused and should not. 

Sorry but its not as simple as that is it. You talk there about your "data" as though it's a fixed defined matter, when the reality is that it's not. There is no set format for data as such. If you are specifically talking about usage on a series of phone networks for instance it's not just a matter of the voice or internet that you use. What about the contract details that allows you to use certain networks, what about the billing and how that is reconciled with providers and you for example. what about the methods that the company uses to communicate with you? What about the data that is used that allows for the providers to adjust network settings to provide better services etc etc etc

 

While I understand the idea that people do not like the thought of people knowing what they are doing, reality is that you are never going to avoid that unless you disappear completely from today's society

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But that data is private and only with my consent or if I'm suspected of a crime can it be handed over to anyone else

Well that's simply not true Conor and I'm surprised you're saying it.  Do you really believe that?  Your data can be warrantlessly requested from google on a whim.  The justification can be anything they decide it to be, but it doesn't change the fact that your data is only 'private' in so far as they haven't bothered to look at it yet.  Not because it's locked away safe.

 

 

To clarify. I use 'data' in the context of personal or sensitive information.

 

 

 

Please give an example of this supplying data "on a whim"

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While I understand the idea that people do not like the thought of people knowing what they are doing, reality is that you are never going to avoid that unless you disappear completely from today's society

 

 

 

I have no problem with companies like Google knowing what I'm doing. I don't mind that, I understand their motives are financial.

 

Governments on the other hand want data to find and prosecute people. Which can (and will) result in many many incorrect instances of wrongful accusations. 

 

A country that tortures people in camps are the last people I want to have free access to my data. They needs to suspect me specifically of a crime before they should get this data. 

 

Verizon want and store peoples phone records because they use them to better know and make money from customers. They also store them incase they are needed in a court case against potential criminal activity. 

 

But blanket handing over of data is only for governments to find more suspects to target via links. Of this I'm quite sure. 

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Please give an example of this supplying data "on a whim"

Here

 

 

 

That is part of the same thing. Governments requesting data and Google being forced to hand it over. Something which I believe is wrong. 

 

I'm sure in those cases it's for specific sets of data. Not blanket data for all google subscribers. Otherwise there would be just one order, not many requests.

 

Point is handing over of data to government like that is wrong and it needs to be discussed in Congress of the United States. 

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Please give an example of this supplying data "on a whim"

Here

 

 

That is part of the same thing. Governments requesting data and Google being forced to hand it over. Something which I believe is wrong. 

 

I'm sure in those cases it's for specific sets of data. Not blanket data for all google subscribers. Otherwise there would be just one order, not many requests.

 

Point is handing over of data to government like that is wrong and it needs to be discussed in Congress of the United States.

It is wrong but it happens. You made it sound like it didn't happen earlier. I was just pointing out that it did.
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This is the answer.

 

Everyone to have their own personal micro-drone accompanying them at all times.  Breaches of the government's permitted list of approved activities can be instantly logged and reported.  Offenders can then be immediately instructed to report to the appropriate correctional centre, run by G4S but probably controlled by the US Department For Corrections.  Or just killed.

 

We would have to weigh up whether the savings in court time, police time, legal fees and so on would repay the investment.  We would also have to factor in the national security dimension of preventing the millions of acts of trrrrsm which are daily planned by malcontents.  I have no doubt that would show the investment was worth it.

 

The bigger challenge is to tackle thought crime.  I suppose that requires implants in the short term, and genetic engineering in the longer term.  We will shortly have the technology.

 

Some may have reservations about this, but it is in the national interest that we override their objections.  After all, if you're not guilty, what have you got to worry about?  Objection to these reasonable and prudent measures is prima facie proof of guilt.

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when I'm organising my stuff that is jeopardising western supremacy I generally use an unregistered pay as you go phone, topped up using cash, whilst wearing a fake bald spot and then walk around a lot and practise variations of french accents whilst using said phone

 

never been caught yet

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Wait what? Are you kidding me?

 

It's reported to be a hoax.  I expect the hoax part is the bit about mimicking a mosquito, rather than the substantive point about developing smaller and less noticeable drones for spying purposes.

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Probably. I think when we are trying to push this too far, some of it has to come back at them. Things is they have been doing these sorts of things for decades, the have become masters at easing things in to the society. One of the obstacles are the internet of course, information spreads more quickly then ever so leaks can be more damaging then ever. If I ever was forced have a chip inside me at all times which logs my information then I would actually end my life. I would never ever bring up a child in this world to live through that. So it seems inevitable that I will never have kids and I will take suicide, great.

 

To be honest, I am not really joking about that. That stuff scares me, and it has nothing to do with me doing stuff that is illegal. If the world ever comes to that then...yeah I don`t what to say really.

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What about the contract details that allows you to use certain networks, what about the billing and how that is reconciled with providers and you for example. what about the methods that the company uses to communicate with you? What about the data that is used that allows for the providers to adjust network settings to provide better services etc etc etc

That brings you back to your previous point about use.

If the data is being used for the purpose for which it was provided and, if anything more, with the agreement of the source of that data then there is less of a problem but that isn't generally what happens.

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I hear the argument about everything being ok with collecting Data because of the need for consent for it to be used or accessed

 

, Hmmm and governemnts are above the use of implied consent? or consent being the default until you withdraw it? then once you withdraw it claim such actions as suspicious and hence allow non-consenting use of data?

 

There are lots of reasons to want privacy, yes some are due with the hiding of wrongdoing, some because whilst your activities don't do any harm they are potentially embarrassing or have social stigma attached to them, or just you don't like the idea of people poking their nose in your business when they have no right or genuine cause to. The problem is the attitude at the moment is it's ok collecting data, but once agencies have it, the temptation to use it in an invasive way seems too tempting

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Edited by mockingbird_franklin
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Exactly, collect all phone data to protect people from terrorists. But once you have all that data there in a database why not use it to stop organised crime and then.... etc..

 

We're then at the point where everyone wants access to it and can make a solid case for why it's right that they gain access. We then get a massive increase in wrongful accusations. 

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What about the contract details that allows you to use certain networks, what about the billing and how that is reconciled with providers and you for example. what about the methods that the company uses to communicate with you? What about the data that is used that allows for the providers to adjust network settings to provide better services etc etc etc

That brings you back to your previous point about use.

If the data is being used for the purpose for which it was provided and, if anything more, with the agreement of the source of that data then there is less of a problem but that isn't generally what happens.

 

Don't get me wrong Snowy I agree with your sentiment, but the reality is that despite that being a principle that should be adhered to, it will never happen. The nature of the world we live in as I said means that personal digital footprints are left here, there and everywhere and that data collection is monitored, collected, utilised and worked with for many many reasons. Hoping that people can "opt out" or that they can refuse for "their data" not be used is never going to happen. I have seen a lot of analysis on the amounts and types of data that is captured - and then used. It's incredible really, the fact that I am typing this reply to you is part of this whole data capture scenario.

 

Selective headlines from the media are laughable when it comes to this especially when they label it as "big brother" etc. As humanity progresses with the "digital age" there is less and less ways that total anonymity can occur. It goes back to your points really on how the data is used, but again for all of the massive good that is done, there will always be an element of bad.

 

Good subject to debate (for me anyway) :-)

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Don't get me wrong Snowy I agree with your sentiment, but the reality is that despite that being a principle that should be adhered to, it will never happen. The nature of the world we live in as I said means that personal digital footprints are left here, there and everywhere and that data collection is monitored, collected, utilised and worked with for many many reasons. Hoping that people can "opt out" or that they can refuse for "their data" not be used is never going to happen. I have seen a lot of analysis on the amounts and types of data that is captured - and then used. It's incredible really, the fact that I am typing this reply to you is part of this whole data capture scenario.

 

Selective headlines from the media are laughable when it comes to this especially when they label it as "big brother" etc. As humanity progresses with the "digital age" there is less and less ways that total anonymity can occur. It goes back to your points really on how the data is used, but again for all of the massive good that is done, there will always be an element of bad.

 

Good subject to debate (for me anyway) :-)

The trouble is though that we have the potential for the worst of all worlds as we are relying upon a general beneficence of the organizations who collect, use and sell the data. I think it's a mistake that further empowers those who already have the most power and biggest pockets.

What is to be done? As alluded to in your post, I doubt there is much, sadly.

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