Stadium Redevelopment Stalls.

[mykeyb]

Cheapest season Ticket at Bayern is £105.00 but that is standing. The Bayern General manager points out that they could charge £300 for a season ticket but that would only raise an additional million pounds but in the scheme of things thats not going to make a huge difference to the club. Imagine if VP was redeveloped and we had 55K in every home game.

 

In an ideal world you want a full stadium, better atmosphere, higher revenue from programmes, food & drinks, club shop sales etc.

[HolteExile]

 

I get the argument that you should only look to expand when you are regularly selling out.   I get it, but I disagree.

 

Once you are at the point that you are turning people away, you've lost that revenue - you don't get it back. Have the facilities in place before you get to that point.    Even if it was only the standard 4/5 games per season that seen a crowd in excess of 43,000 initially, that would boost the average attendance across the season.  Resulting in a higher average than the season before, and illustrating that there was logic behind the decision.   Our average has gone up every time we have undertaken that kind of work since 1993.

 

Naturaly an investment in bricks an mortar to that extent requires a big financial commitment up front.  Depending on success, the investment might pay for itself within 3 years/ 5 years or maybe 20 years later.   It will pay for itself in time though.

 

Hindsight being 20/20 vision, but what would have been better for our longterm future in 2007-09?  Lengthy contracts to NRC, Shorey, Sidwell, Heskey and co?   Or extending the ground?  The duration of just ONE of those contracts would have paid for the work.  Then- even if RL's time at the club was ultimately judged to be a failure, there would at least have been some sort of positive legacy. 

 

A top flight club with a 50k+  ground would be a far more attractive proposition to an investor too, when the time eventually comes to sell. Even if that club wasn't selling out at the time, the new investor can see the potential for higher revenue straight away - and doesn't have to sink funds  into ground expansion.

Postive thinking- I would like to think ur right but who knows? I always think Villa should have  a bigger away allocation- if we did expand, there should be a 5-6,000 away section. The 'big' clubs would sell this out and you would get a extra 3,000 on the gate already.We are near most clubs and should encourage it as a good away day. Gets a better atmosphere, but  I would be careful in a Blues game though.   You could also 'tarp' upper sections for smaller teams (eg Fulham, Swansea etc)  to reduce the capacity. This probably won't justify building lots of new seats though!  To justify a bigger North Stand Villa probably need to have 38-40 k minimum crowds with nearly 50K potential support in the big games. Have we the support for this?

 

 

Away support for the Sky lot + Newcastle and Tottingham would boost the numbers, for sure,  They would be the most likely to sell 5/6000 if offered.

 

Had we the extra space at present, I'd also like to see us make a substantial allocation available to schools and colleges across the Midlands. 

 

We pride ourselves on community relations, and we're better than most in that regard.  But we can always do more.

 

From what I understand, we're very good at supplying free tickets to schools in the area if they request them.

 

I'd say we shouldn't actually wait for them to contact us.

 

Football is an expensive pastime now, as we all know.  Many adults are priced out of it and can't afford to take their children.  This means that -for many children-  their only exposure to 'live' football is Sky.  We don't receive the same sort of prominence with Murdoch's lot as Man U, Chelsea and co -and our lack of success makes us a far less attractive proposition to kids just getting into the game. Sad, but true.

 

The reasons why many on here became Villa fans would no doubt be varied.  But I'd wager that most match going fans were hooked after that first visit or two to VP.  We should do all we can to make sure we give as many kids in the area as possible that experience.  Not purely for altruistic reasons either.  Those kids will most likely be the backbone of our support in years to come, or future customers, for the number crunchers amongst us.

 

This, combined with free tickets for active servicemen, generous discounts for OAPS and cheaper season tickets could all boost the average, no question. 

 

Sunderland -who often get praise for their high gates despite the team being mostly awful- give away thousands of tickets per game, something seldom mentioned.  Their attendance is simply listed as 45/46000.  Not 46000 (with x amount of thousand getting in for free). 

 

I accept that too many freebies dilutes the value of a match ticket, and that discounts to people who would have paid the premium regardless actually reduces income. As always, it's a matter of striking the right balance. 

Edited May 31, 2013 by HolteExile

[The Fun Factory]

It's a tough one.  I'd love to see the North Stand improved, for aesthetic reasons as much as anything, but I can understand the various reasons behind it not being a priority.

 

I'm not sure how much it would cost to rebuild it to bring the capacity up to almost 50,000.  However, if the new North Stand was built as a 13,000ish seater, we'd probably sell out the extra 6,000 seats around four times per season.  We'll call it five times, to take into account a big cup game.  At £30 per ticket on average, that's still less than an extra £1m per year.  New hospitality features would probably see us make more than this, and a museum would provide a small amount of extra income, too - although it would obviously not be cheap to include in the building.  We'd have to pay extra staff but this would be roughly offset by extra revenue from catering, etc. (I presume).

 

Now, I'd like to think we'll be playing European football again before too long, but we'd still have to do well in the Europa League to fill a larger Villa Park more often.  So £1m extra income per year is probably a reasonably accurate figure.  If the new stand cost £20m to build, it would take twenty years to 'pay for itself'.

 

Then we have to take into account the possible (if, unfortunately, improbable) introduction of safe standing.  The attendances would surely increase if this were to happen, but you'd also expect this to be as a result of reducing ticket prices in these areas.  So, if Villa Park's capacity were increased to 50,000 through safe-standing areas being installed in one or more of the existing stands, this would raise further questions.  Would we still have planning permission to increase the stadium's capacity, if it were to be to above 50,000 due to standing?  And would an increase in capacity even be necessary in this scenario, or would be be able to bring in up to 60,000?

I think even with the best will in the world I can't see Villa ever getting 60,000 crowds. That is huge support. Only Man U, Arsenal and Celtic can get those gates in this country. 50,000- maybe, 60,000- too much!

As for the cost I think the Trinity cost around £30 million over 10 years ago. So I would guess a new North Stand would be at least £40 million. Or 1 andy carroll, nigel reo coker and a zak knight.

Edited May 31, 2013 by The Fun Factory

[HolteExile]

The Trinity cost £10-12 million, depending on various reports mentioned at the time.

 

It was funded by a £15 million investment from NTL.

[The Fun Factory]

The Trinity cost £10-12 million, depending on various reports mentioned at the time.

 

It was funded by a £15 million investment from NTL.

Yes but that doesnt count the cost Lener did when he refurbed it when he took over.

[HolteExile]

A refurbishment that was the same -or more- than the initial outlay for the entire stand just six years previously? 

 

I think you may have your numbers mixed up.  The new restaurant and moving season ticket holders from the best seats in the house didn't cost that much.

[VillaChris]

The North stand was given a bit of a spray a few summers back but got dirty pretty quickly.

 

Don't see the point of stadium redevelopment.

 

The way I see it we have 25k hardcore fans who'll turn up no matter what (e.g. that Bolton midweek game near the end of TSM) hence why our attendances rarely dip under 30k, another 5k fans who'll turn up more often than not, 3k away fans and then 10k floating fans who'll turn up depending on our form, league position, new signings, weather, opposition etc. The "glory" years of 06-09 those turned up frequently hence the 40k average.

 

They would only return if we were back In the top 6 and really going strong for champions league.

 

Realistically the only three games we're likely to sell out currently and with a 50k capacity would be SHA (not happening for the near future) and Liverpool and Man. United (these nearly always draw sell outs whatever the day and kick off time). Those two are the ones where the attendance will always swell from glory hunting midlanders wanting to see them play, you never get this when we play Arsenal or Chelsea so those games they attendances are usually slightly lower.

 

The north stand has a great view from the upper but yeah the space and facilities aren't great. But I don't think a capacity expansion is logical until we improve significantly in the league.

[Condimentalist]

The North stand was given a bit of a spray a few summers back but got dirty pretty quickly.

 

Don't see the point of stadium redevelopment.

 

The way I see it we have 25k hardcore fans who'll turn up no matter what (e.g. that Bolton midweek game near the end of TSM) hence why our attendances rarely dip under 30k, another 5k fans who'll turn up more often than not, 3k away fans and then 10k floating fans who'll turn up depending on our form, league position, new signings, weather, opposition etc. The "glory" years of 06-09 those turned up frequently hence the 40k average.

 

They would only return if we were back In the top 6 and really going strong for champions league.

 

Realistically the only three games we're likely to sell out currently and with a 50k capacity would be SHA (not happening for the near future) and Liverpool and Man. United (these nearly always draw sell outs whatever the day and kick off time). Those two are the ones where the attendance will always swell from glory hunting midlanders wanting to see them play, you never get this when we play Arsenal or Chelsea so those games they attendances are usually slightly lower.

 

The north stand has a great view from the upper but yeah the space and facilities aren't great. But I don't think a capacity expansion is logical until we improve significantly in the league.

 

TBF Chelsea at home was a sell-out £42k plus this year. Clearly this isn't a priority at the moment but let's see how the attendances (and the team) do over the next couple of years. If both are riding high it's definitely worth considering.

[VillaChris]

Chelsea was because it was last home game of the season, we could still have been relegated and the team had won their previous home game 6-1, all external factors that get the fairweather fans to he game.

 

Go back a few seasons ago and we were getting 36-37k for Chelsea games, think 07/08 when we beat them 2-0 is an example so like Arsenal and Man. City at home it's not a guaranteed sell out if the team isn't in good league postion or the kick off time isn't friendly.

 

What was the Man. City attendance on the Monday night this season?

[CI]

I'd consider expanding the ground once we have 35k regular ST holders. At the moment we have too many drifters

[VillaChris]

It got up to 27k around 08-09.

 

No idea what it is at the minute, 20k?

[KHV]

It got up to 27k around 08-09.

 

No idea what it is at the minute, 20k?

I.think its a tad over. Not far off the mark though

[KjParton]

Wasn't it 22k this year? How do we find it out? 

[Skruff]

Sorry for getting a bit off topic here, but what's the deal with the broadcasters of premier league only will be able to broadcast 1 15:00 kick off match on saturdays?

Higher attendance at matches?

[brommy]

Sorry for getting a bit off topic here, but what's the deal with the broadcasters of premier league only will be able to broadcast 1 15:00 kick off match on saturdays?

Higher attendance at matches?

Exactly that. It's to protect the attendances for the majority of matches (Premiership and league) which kick off on a Saturday at 15:00.

[CI]

We had 22k ST holders last year, which for a club of our size and stature is quite average

Norwich probably have more than us

[Rugeley Villa]

Think norwich have most of their ground taking up by season ticket holders which would give them around about 23k season ticket holders, as people have mentioned I think we need to deffo hit the 30k mark before we increase capacity

[The Fun Factory]

A refurbishment that was the same -or more- than the initial outlay for the entire stand just six years previously? 

 

I think you may have your numbers mixed up.  The new restaurant and moving season ticket holders from the best seats in the house didn't cost that much.

Ok- the figure I have found is 17mil. Plus the new signage and restaurant etc I guess it could be around the 20 mil mark. Villa spent 2 and a half mil on the old Trinity in the early 90s before knocking it down.  NTL- what were they thinking?!

[The Fun Factory]

Probably a daft question- has the North Stand roof ever been replaced? If not, how long do they supposed to last for?! 40-50 yrs?

Edited June 1, 2013 by The Fun Factory

[nepal_villan]

Another reason to increase capacity (i.e. redevelop the North Stand) is to try to keep the appearance that we're one of top clubs in the country. A host of clubs including Swansea, Cardiff, Southampton, Crystal Palace, etc. have plans to increase capacity to 30-40,000. It's important that we're not lumped with those clubs.