Current affairs Stockholm Burning

[legov]

Just wondered where immigration was relevant to a film about Muslim extremism and with it being in the UK when this thread is about a problem that is facing Sweden

 

It is relevant, because he seems to think that the riots in Sweden were a result of Muslim extremism, Assuming that that is true, and assuming that Muslim extremism in Sweden is both quantitatively and characteristically similar to Muslim extremism in Britain (both far from certain, of course), it would mean that by understanding Muslim extremism in Britain, one would be able to better understand its Swedish equivalent, and thus in turn understand the riot incident better (assuming, again, that extremism was the cause in the first place).

 

Just to be clear, I'm on your side on this one, but I don't think the video is completely irrelevant to this thread. I wouldn't jump the gun yet and say that it's "dirty Muslims" who are to blame, but given the religion and ethnicity of most of the rioters I think we can understand why people think Islam/extremist Islam is at fault, even if we don't agree with that opinion.

[peterms]

 

Poor is no excuse for wilful damage and civil unrest. we were poor in the 50's but we had values and channelled all our energies in to trying to improve our personal financial standing.

There's a difference between seeing something as an excuse and looking for reasons why things may have happened.

If you are going to draw a comparison between the 1950s (in the UK, I guess?) and other times and different happenings then surely you have to include comparisons of things like levels of investment and desirability of full employment and recent histories and so on?

 

 

Yes.  And it would be helpful to look at things like how economic benefits and hardships are shared - it's not and never has been about absolute poverty.  Sweden is a famously open and egalitarian society, but in recent years inequality has been growing faster than in any other of the 34 OECD countries.  Like many other countries, the cost of bailing out the banks and protecting the assets of the wealthiest has been met by higher unemployment and greater relative inequality.  Whether people are objectively wealthier than they would have been in the 1950s or any other period isn't the point.  These aren't food riots.

 

People have been pointing out for a long time that austerity policies are dangerous because they help create conditions in which large numbers of people can feel resentful, angry, disempowered.  In those conditions support for less tolerant and more extreme ideas tends to grow.  There's also more chance that some kind of flashpoint will end up with disturbances, sweeping up larger numbers of people who join in but who quite possibly couldn't explain very clearly what is their specific grievance, or who have been told that their problems are due to another group of people who are visibly different from them.

[peterms]

Just wondering what a film about UK people has to do with a situation in Sweden?

 

Just part of the tactics that groups like the BNP and others use.  Take a visible, loud demonstration by a group of people who can be represented as extreme (in this case, they seem to support the introduction of Sharia law to the UK).  Ignore the specific reason for the demonstration (something to do with police action against one of their number?).  Present the group as posing a threat to "us", and also as being representative of a far wider group of people.  Use this to stir up first uncertainty, then concern, fear and if possible anger against the wider group.  Light blue touchpaper, and retire.

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

 

Just wondering what a film about UK people has to do with a situation in Sweden?

 

Just part of the tactics that groups like the BNP and others use.  Take a visible, loud demonstration by a group of people who can be represented as extreme (in this case, they seem to support the introduction of Sharia law to the UK).  Ignore the specific reason for the demonstration (something to do with police action against one of their number?).  Present the group as posing a threat to "us", and also as being representative of a far wider group of people.  Use this to stir up first uncertainty, then concern, fear and if possible anger against the wider group.  Light blue touchpaper, and retire.

 

As opposed to do nothing, do not light blue touch paper and retire anyway?

[Pelle]

Just for the record, I don't think this has anything to do with muslims or other religions. These are just bastards of any kind. They throw bricks at firemen who comes to try and put out fires, ffs. That's not protesting, that's just, well, I can't find words for it. And it's not about poverty or inequality either. If anything I'd say it's about the police force.

[Ikantcpell]

 

 

 

And the swedish police must stop acting like wussys...the people who are doing this thinks that the swedish police are weak and a joke..that's why it's continues..

 

A civilised human being do not act in this way..they just dont!

 

 

 

Agreed...just make sure that only the perpretators and no one else are caught, will be a cold day in hell if people start getting detained just because they wear turbans or have slightly darker skin (they have laws to ensure that doesn't happen, don't they?)

They are scum,plain and simple...I have friends who knows some of these people and they dont want to work,they all dream of becoming the new Tony Montana and many of them has really deep hatred for sweden lol..it's just sickening

 

 

If they hate Sweden, why migrate?

 

 

I work has a doorman/bouncer two times a week and i often hear comments like: You **** swede i hate you and your **** country,and i often ask why they dont go back to thier country if evrything is so bad here and the usual response is: I would if i could.

 

A few months ago i was very close to being stabbed by a guy from afghanistan,if ive reacted 2 seconds later i would had been stabbed and who knows maybe i wouldnt even been sitting here right now..The guy that attacked me only has one eye and i later heard that when he was a little boy the talibans came to his familys house and killed his mother father and older brother right infront of him and one of the taliban soldier put out his cigarette in his eye and just left him there with his dead parents and drove of..So i can understand that this guy has some very deep emotional problems.

 

But if you get a new chance in life to come to a new country and start over TAKE IT with both hands FFS..Dont burn cars throw stones at the firemen and ambulance workers or attack people with knives!!

 

 

If you cannot behave like a civilized person you have no right to live among other civilized persons IMO.

[legov]

But why would people in general resort to violence if they are not being discriminated against? After all, if you had a steady job violence would be detrimental to you keeping it

[peterms]

Just for the record, I don't think this has anything to do with muslims or other religions. These are just bastards of any kind. They throw bricks at firemen who comes to try and put out fires, ffs. That's not protesting, that's just, well, I can't find words for it. And it's not about poverty or inequality either. If anything I'd say it's about the police force.

 

Attacks on firefighters are common in the UK as well.  That may be surprising and shocking for people who see them as heroic figures who put themselves in danger to save lives, but it's true.

 

As for Sweden and the police force, it sounds like the immediate trigger of the violence was the police shooting a man dead in his own home on the (false) basis that he was posing a threat to his wife.  But as with riots elsewhere, there needs to be more than a trigger - the underlying conditions need to be favourable.  The challenge is to identify what conditions make violent unrest more likely, and change the conditions.  The solutions put forward by those who argue for more control, more surveillance, more spying, a network of informants, more violent policing, harsher sentencing, won't work, though they seem to satisfy those of a more punitive and aggressive nature.

[DeepDish]

Most of the problems lie within the politicians, the lame politicians, no matter what colour they have. Many swedes feel that they've tried to make it as good as possible that they've forgotten the swedish people. And sometimes it's true too. The politicians have made it a bad thing to sing the national anthem apart from special occassions. They were helped by racists, of course. Not that I go around singing the national anthem, but when it comes to situations like graduations and it's not allowed to sing the swedish anthem there because it could alienate the immigrants it's starting to get ridiculous. Same with the swedish flag. My ex girlfriends class in high school had a swedish flag behind them when they were taking a photo for the school photo album. They had to take a new picture because of the flag. For them it was just a"fun thing" to have on the picture. The political correctness has in some parts gone too far. In the summer graduation it's been a tradition for many years to sing a summer hymn. It's not allowed anymore. And the funny thing is that the immigrants I've talked to don't care about that. It's mostly in the politcians heads. One other thing is that we shall allt hem all swedes as they live here now and all that. But most of the ones I know don't wanna be called swedes. They don't think of themselves as such. They're proud of where they come from, as they should be. They're croatians, serbs, turks, chileans and they don't want to be called swedes. Of course this don't go for everyone, but for many. When I lived in England I didn't want to be called english. Of course, I didn't have a english citizenship, nor did I try to get one, but if I did I still wouldn't feel like an englishman, no offence.

 

 

Spot on. We have some of the same debates in Norway. Though we are still proud of our flag and use it on the 17th of May and we sing our national anthem on this day.

 

But there was an interesting debate before our National day this 17th of May. We celebrate the day with children going in parades with Norwegian flag and celebrating our national day. Then some one at a scholl in a small place outside Ålesund wanted that the immigration children had flags with the Norwegian flag on one side and the flag of their origin on the other.

 

First of all, this created a bad public debate, where nationalists and some racists where speaking of their disgust with these flags, that they would destroy our natinal day. That was quite bad and I am embarrassed to be of the same nationality as these bastards.

 

But this case has another side, and that is the side of the immigration kids who the school wanted to use different flags.

 

If you ask the immigrant children, nobody wants to have a different flag than the Norwegians on this day. They are and want to be Norwegians, so why on earth would anyone make it so obvious that the immigrant children are different on this one day when they feel most Norwegian. Surely, there will probably be plenty of time later when these children get the opportunity to be different....

 

I have a girlfriend that comes from an African country. She came to Norway in 1994 and has a son at the age of 17. I asked her about this flag debate, and she was perplexed by the idea that someone suggested not using Norwegian flags on the 17th of May. She would never suggest that her son used a Kenyan flag on the Norwegian national day when he was a kid, and she felt there was stupid Norwegians with misinformed good intentions who suggested the idea.

 

"These are not the ideas that immigrant parents come up with. We want our children growing up equal to their classmates", was her final though on the subject.

 

 

It seems that some of these ideas comes from ill informed white people, living in white areas, and who just are out of touch with what the people they try to "defend" feels, thinks and does.

[legov]

 

Most of the problems lie within the politicians, the lame politicians, no matter what colour they have. Many swedes feel that they've tried to make it as good as possible that they've forgotten the swedish people. And sometimes it's true too. The politicians have made it a bad thing to sing the national anthem apart from special occassions. They were helped by racists, of course. Not that I go around singing the national anthem, but when it comes to situations like graduations and it's not allowed to sing the swedish anthem there because it could alienate the immigrants it's starting to get ridiculous. Same with the swedish flag. My ex girlfriends class in high school had a swedish flag behind them when they were taking a photo for the school photo album. They had to take a new picture because of the flag. For them it was just a"fun thing" to have on the picture. The political correctness has in some parts gone too far. In the summer graduation it's been a tradition for many years to sing a summer hymn. It's not allowed anymore. And the funny thing is that the immigrants I've talked to don't care about that. It's mostly in the politcians heads. One other thing is that we shall allt hem all swedes as they live here now and all that. But most of the ones I know don't wanna be called swedes. They don't think of themselves as such. They're proud of where they come from, as they should be. They're croatians, serbs, turks, chileans and they don't want to be called swedes. Of course this don't go for everyone, but for many. When I lived in England I didn't want to be called english. Of course, I didn't have a english citizenship, nor did I try to get one, but if I did I still wouldn't feel like an englishman, no offence.

 

 

Spot on. We have some of the same debates in Norway. Though we are still proud of our flag and use it on the 17th of May and we sing our national anthem on this day.

 

But there was an interesting debate before our National day this 17th of May. We celebrate the day with children going in parades with Norwegian flag and celebrating our national day. Then some one at a scholl in a small place outside Ålesund wanted that the immigration children had flags with the Norwegian flag on one side and the flag of their origin on the other.

 

First of all, this created a bad public debate, where nationalists and some racists where speaking of their disgust with these flags, that they would destroy our natinal day. That was quite bad and I am embarrassed to be of the same nationality as these bastards.

 

But this case has another side, and that is the side of the immigration kids who the school wanted to use different flags.

 

If you ask the immigrant children, nobody wants to have a different flag than the Norwegians on this day. They are and want to be Norwegians, so why on earth would anyone make it so obvious that the immigrant children are different on this one day when they feel most Norwegian. Surely, there will probably be plenty of time later when these children get the opportunity to be different....

 

I have a girlfriend that comes from an African country. She came to Norway in 1994 and has a son at the age of 17. I asked her about this flag debate, and she was perplexed by the idea that someone suggested not using Norwegian flags on the 17th of May. She would never suggest that her son used a Kenyan flag on the Norwegian national day when he was a kid, and she felt there was stupid Norwegians with misinformed good intentions who suggested the idea.

 

"These are not the ideas that immigrant parents come up with. We want our children growing up equal to their classmates", was her final though on the subject.

 

 

It seems that some of these ideas comes from ill informed white people, living in white areas, and who just are out of touch with what the people they try to "defend" feels, thinks and does.

 

 

Possible, hmm

[Ikantcpell]

But why would people in general resort to violence if they are not being discriminated against? After all, if you had a steady job violence would be detrimental to you keeping it

What do you mean ? That i discriminated the afghan that's why he attacked me with a knife ?

 

I didnt let him in to the nightclub cause 3 weeks earlier he beat up a girl on the dancefloor...And he came back and wanted to get in and i told  him that he will never set a foot in this nightclub again and that's when he attacked me.

 

I really dont care what the colour of your skin is or where you are from..if you treat me good i will treat you good if you treat me bad ill treat you bad...It's all very simple.

[legov]

But why would people in general resort to violence if they are not being discriminated against? After all, if you had a steady job violence would be detrimental to you keeping it

What do you mean ? That i discriminated the afghan that's why he attacked me with a knife ?

No no no not at all. I meant socioeconomic factors. If you're poor you're more likely to vent your frustrations with violence. If you're poorly educated, same. If you're discriminated against by society on a daily basis, same.

It wasn't directed at you personally at all.

[Pelle]

 

Just for the record, I don't think this has anything to do with muslims or other religions. These are just bastards of any kind. They throw bricks at firemen who comes to try and put out fires, ffs. That's not protesting, that's just, well, I can't find words for it. And it's not about poverty or inequality either. If anything I'd say it's about the police force.

 

Attacks on firefighters are common in the UK as well.  That may be surprising and shocking for people who see them as heroic figures who put themselves in danger to save lives, but it's true.

 

As for Sweden and the police force, it sounds like the immediate trigger of the violence was the police shooting a man dead in his own home on the (false) basis that he was posing a threat to his wife.  But as with riots elsewhere, there needs to be more than a trigger - the underlying conditions need to be favourable.  The challenge is to identify what conditions make violent unrest more likely, and change the conditions.  The solutions put forward by those who argue for more control, more surveillance, more spying, a network of informants, more violent policing, harsher sentencing, won't work, though they seem to satisfy those of a more punitive and aggressive nature.

 

 

I don't know if I missunderstand you on this one, but it seems like you try to say that firemen ain't all that good. I don't know if they're heroes or not, but they're there to try and put the fire out so people won't get hurt.  So the fire won't expand. They don't offend anyone, they don't use violence against anyone. I can't see any reason for anyone to throw bricks and shit at them.

 

Well, there's been a lot of protests against the police force all over the country. Exaggerated violence and all that. And sure, some polices are scums too who take advantage of their psotion and use unnecessary force on people, but most are not. There's a video on youtube on two cops trying to take a man into custody. They're two and the man's got plenty of people around him who're his friends and on his side. On of them are filming it all. They all shout about unnecessary violence and that the man is not making any resistance. The polices are admirably calm and the man is trying to take their sticks and is definitely putting up violent resistance to the polices. Everyone who's seen that video who I've talked to says the same thing. The people around and the man himself are just damn idiots. But the important thing is that they think that the police is doing the wrong things and that the police as a unit is against them. And this spreads among those people. This happened here in Gothenburg in a suburb a while ago. Don't know when. And when their is such an unrest among some people with the police and when a riot like this starts, it's quite easy to think that the reason is the police force, and it doesn't feel rational either.

 

But yes, the areas where these things happens are always poor areas, probably with a lot of unemployment among the citizens. And unfortunately most of them are immigrants, which just creates more racism and uneducated people think all immigrants are the same and that it's only immigrants doing this. Believe me, I've tried to discuss with people having those thoughts and it's impossible to get a good and rational discussion about it. I just get angry.

 

Anyway, there's probably some good reason behind all this, but this is not the way to protest. And they're no victims in this. And I wouldn't be surprised if that man wasn't totally innocent either. But not knowing the details at all, I shall not say anything more about that situation. But it's a hell of a reaction to put the neighbours car on fire because of it. The neighbour hadn't done anything.

 

I don't think all this is just a swedish thing, it's just that right now it happened here. And there are loads of people to blame, not just those in the riots. Media shall not cover themselves in glory for example. And the politicians have done their bit too.

[Pelle]

 

Most of the problems lie within the politicians, the lame politicians, no matter what colour they have. Many swedes feel that they've tried to make it as good as possible that they've forgotten the swedish people. And sometimes it's true too. The politicians have made it a bad thing to sing the national anthem apart from special occassions. They were helped by racists, of course. Not that I go around singing the national anthem, but when it comes to situations like graduations and it's not allowed to sing the swedish anthem there because it could alienate the immigrants it's starting to get ridiculous. Same with the swedish flag. My ex girlfriends class in high school had a swedish flag behind them when they were taking a photo for the school photo album. They had to take a new picture because of the flag. For them it was just a"fun thing" to have on the picture. The political correctness has in some parts gone too far. In the summer graduation it's been a tradition for many years to sing a summer hymn. It's not allowed anymore. And the funny thing is that the immigrants I've talked to don't care about that. It's mostly in the politcians heads. One other thing is that we shall allt hem all swedes as they live here now and all that. But most of the ones I know don't wanna be called swedes. They don't think of themselves as such. They're proud of where they come from, as they should be. They're croatians, serbs, turks, chileans and they don't want to be called swedes. Of course this don't go for everyone, but for many. When I lived in England I didn't want to be called english. Of course, I didn't have a english citizenship, nor did I try to get one, but if I did I still wouldn't feel like an englishman, no offence.

 

 

Spot on. We have some of the same debates in Norway. Though we are still proud of our flag and use it on the 17th of May and we sing our national anthem on this day.

 

But there was an interesting debate before our National day this 17th of May. We celebrate the day with children going in parades with Norwegian flag and celebrating our national day. Then some one at a scholl in a small place outside Ålesund wanted that the immigration children had flags with the Norwegian flag on one side and the flag of their origin on the other.

 

First of all, this created a bad public debate, where nationalists and some racists where speaking of their disgust with these flags, that they would destroy our natinal day. That was quite bad and I am embarrassed to be of the same nationality as these bastards.

 

But this case has another side, and that is the side of the immigration kids who the school wanted to use different flags.

 

If you ask the immigrant children, nobody wants to have a different flag than the Norwegians on this day. They are and want to be Norwegians, so why on earth would anyone make it so obvious that the immigrant children are different on this one day when they feel most Norwegian. Surely, there will probably be plenty of time later when these children get the opportunity to be different....

 

I have a girlfriend that comes from an African country. She came to Norway in 1994 and has a son at the age of 17. I asked her about this flag debate, and she was perplexed by the idea that someone suggested not using Norwegian flags on the 17th of May. She would never suggest that her son used a Kenyan flag on the Norwegian national day when he was a kid, and she felt there was stupid Norwegians with misinformed good intentions who suggested the idea.

 

"These are not the ideas that immigrant parents come up with. We want our children growing up equal to their classmates", was her final though on the subject.

 

 

It seems that some of these ideas comes from ill informed white people, living in white areas, and who just are out of touch with what the people they try to "defend" feels, thinks and does.

 

 

Typical. Didn't think it was the same in Norway, for some reason, but clearly it is. The politicians are just lame and afraid.

[Ikantcpell]

 

Just for the record, I don't think this has anything to do with muslims or other religions. These are just bastards of any kind. They throw bricks at firemen who comes to try and put out fires, ffs. That's not protesting, that's just, well, I can't find words for it. And it's not about poverty or inequality either. If anything I'd say it's about the police force.

 

Attacks on firefighters are common in the UK as well.  That may be surprising and shocking for people who see them as heroic figures who put themselves in danger to save lives, but it's true.

 

As for Sweden and the police force, it sounds like the immediate trigger of the violence was the police shooting a man dead in his own home on the (false) basis that he was posing a threat to his wife.  But as with riots elsewhere, there needs to be more than a trigger - the underlying conditions need to be favourable.  The challenge is to identify what conditions make violent unrest more likely, and change the conditions.  The solutions put forward by those who argue for more control, more surveillance, more spying, a network of informants, more violent policing, harsher sentencing, won't work, though they seem to satisfy those of a more punitive and aggressive nature.

 

Wrong and wrong... Like i said before i have work colleagues who live in this areas and the people out burning cars and throwing stuff at the police and the firemen dont give a shit about the man that got shot dead in his home..and he got shot dead cause he was attacking the police with a machete..

 

And many people who are living in this areas wants the police to act harder..i hear it evryday: why are the police so passive? why dont they clamp down harder on these scum ? If this had happened in my home country it would be over before it started etc

[Pelle]

They don't act more because the laws forbid them to in most cases. In one way those laws might be wrong, in another not so wrong.

[peterms]

Just for the record, I don't think this has anything to do with muslims or other religions. These are just bastards of any kind. They throw bricks at firemen who comes to try and put out fires, ffs. That's not protesting, that's just, well, I can't find words for it. And it's not about poverty or inequality either. If anything I'd say it's about the police force.

 

Attacks on firefighters are common in the UK as well.  That may be surprising and shocking for people who see them as heroic figures who put themselves in danger to save lives, but it's true.

 

As for Sweden and the police force, it sounds like the immediate trigger of the violence was the police shooting a man dead in his own home on the (false) basis that he was posing a threat to his wife.  But as with riots elsewhere, there needs to be more than a trigger - the underlying conditions need to be favourable.  The challenge is to identify what conditions make violent unrest more likely, and change the conditions.  The solutions put forward by those who argue for more control, more surveillance, more spying, a network of informants, more violent policing, harsher sentencing, won't work, though they seem to satisfy those of a more punitive and aggressive nature.

 

I don't know if I missunderstand you on this one, but it seems like you try to say that firemen ain't all that good. I don't know if they're heroes or not, but they're there to try and put the fire out so people won't get hurt.  So the fire won't expand. They don't offend anyone, they don't use violence against anyone. I can't see any reason for anyone to throw bricks and shit at them.

Yes, we have a misunderstanding. Perhaps I didn't express it clearly. I agree with what you say here. I'm simply saying that it's a fact, a regrettable one, that attacks on firefighters are common.

 

Well, there's been a lot of protests against the police force all over the country. Exaggerated violence and all that. And sure, some polices are scums too who take advantage of their psotion and use unnecessary force on people, but most are not. There's a video on youtube on two cops trying to take a man into custody. They're two and the man's got plenty of people around him who're his friends and on his side. On of them are filming it all. They all shout about unnecessary violence and that the man is not making any resistance. The polices are admirably calm and the man is trying to take their sticks and is definitely putting up violent resistance to the polices. Everyone who's seen that video who I've talked to says the same thing. The people around and the man himself are just damn idiots. But the important thing is that they think that the police is doing the wrong things and that the police as a unit is against them. And this spreads among those people. This happened here in Gothenburg in a suburb a while ago. Don't know when. And when their is such an unrest among some people with the police and when a riot like this starts, it's quite easy to think that the reason is the police force, and it doesn't feel rational either.

 

But yes, the areas where these things happens are always poor areas, probably with a lot of unemployment among the citizens. And unfortunately most of them are immigrants, which just creates more racism and uneducated people think all immigrants are the same and that it's only immigrants doing this. Believe me, I've tried to discuss with people having those thoughts and it's impossible to get a good and rational discussion about it. I just get angry.

 

Anyway, there's probably some good reason behind all this, but this is not the way to protest. And they're no victims in this. And I wouldn't be surprised if that man wasn't totally innocent either. But not knowing the details at all, I shall not say anything more about that situation. But it's a hell of a reaction to put the neighbours car on fire because of it. The neighbour hadn't done anything.

 

I don't think all this is just a swedish thing, it's just that right now it happened here. And there are loads of people to blame, not just those in the riots. Media shall not cover themselves in glory for example. And the politicians have done their bit too.

No, it's certainly not just a Swedish thing.

The Swedish case, according to what I've read, went like this. A 69-year-old man was being harassed inside his own home by youths outside the property. He was waving a knife to warn them off. The police came, and banged on the door. He shouted abuse, thinking it was the youths. The police shot him. The police then came up with various lies to protect themselves: his wife was at risk (she denies this). He had a machete (no, he had a knife, in his own home, like we all do). He was urgently taken to hospital where sadly he died (no, he was killed in his home, and the body bag was put in a car, not an ambulance - which the police now admit).

This has many echoes of the incidents which have triggered riots in the UK. Cherry Groce. Mark Duggan. The nameless lads who were arrested on the front line in Brixton, and the cafe in St Pauls, which set off the 1981 riots.

As always, the point is not the particular trigger, but why conditions were such that something would spark such a reaction.

[peterms]

Wrong and wrong

A little more explanation would be welcome, if you can spare the time. Wrong and wrong? What does that mean?

 

... Like i said before i have work colleagues who live in this areas and the people out burning cars and throwing stuff at the police and the firemen dont give a shit about the man that got shot dead in his home..and he got shot dead cause he was attacking the police with a machete..

Yes, I know. Oddly, most people taking part in riots don't do so because of their highly advanced political theory. Mostly, they don't have a political theory, and it's not a long-planned action. They just join in, like people just join in to most other things. You know, like living in families, or working for someone else's profit, or buying worthless shite they don't need, or agreeing to be sent off to die in war to benefit someone else, or saying that welfare cuts to bail out the bankers are a good idea...

By the way, the dead man didn't have a machete. Look it up. There are many Swedish sources for the story, as well as international ones. And if he had had a machete, in his own home, why would that justify the police shooting him dead?

 

And many people who are living in this areas wants the police to act harder..i hear it evryday: why are the police so passive? why dont they clamp down harder on these scum ? If this had happened in my home country it would be over before it started etc

Yes, every area has its share of people who long for violent solutions. Sometimes they are people who are violent themselves, perhaps through an unfortunate childhood, or for genetic reasons, or through brain injury or dietary deficiency, or any of the other things which might lead to a prediliction for violence. We can hear them calling to be allowed to torture people they think have wronged them, or hang or castrate people who have done things they disapprove of. It's a real problem. What should we do with these people who seem to love violence so much?

[Ikantcpell]

 

Wrong and wrong

A little more explanation would be welcome, if you can spare the time. Wrong and wrong? What does that mean?

 

... Like i said before i have work colleagues who live in this areas and the people out burning cars and throwing stuff at the police and the firemen dont give a shit about the man that got shot dead in his home..and he got shot dead cause he was attacking the police with a machete..

Yes, I know. Oddly, most people taking part in riots don't do so because of their highly advanced political theory. Mostly, they don't have a political theory, and it's not a long-planned action. They just join in, like people just join in to most other things. You know, like living in families, or working for someone else's profit, or buying worthless shite they don't need, or agreeing to be sent off to die in war to benefit someone else, or saying that welfare cuts to bail out the bankers are a good idea...

By the way, the dead man didn't have a machete. Look it up. There are many Swedish sources for the story, as well as international ones. And if he had had a machete, in his own home, why would that justify the police shooting him dead?

 

And many people who are living in this areas wants the police to act harder..i hear it evryday: why are the police so passive? why dont they clamp down harder on these scum ? If this had happened in my home country it would be over before it started etc

Yes, every area has its share of people who long for violent solutions. Sometimes they are people who are violent themselves, perhaps through an unfortunate childhood, or for genetic reasons, or through brain injury or dietary deficiency, or any of the other things which might lead to a prediliction for violence. We can hear them calling to be allowed to torture people they think have wronged them, or hang or castrate people who have done things they disapprove of. It's a real problem. What should we do with these people who seem to love violence so much?

 

Well wrong means..i think that you are wrong in what you are saying,i do not agree with you okey ? English is not my first language and i dont speak it fluenty so it would be much easier for me if i could write in my first language..Perhaps you understand swedish ?

 

First of all that man was out threatening people with his machete or let's say it was a knife..dosent make much difference,it's a lethal weapon anyway..alot of people called the police,the police came to the scene asked the man to come out of his home..the man refused to do so,and after a while the police decided to enter the man's home,when the first police enter the man comes running against the police with a machete/knife the police fears for his own life and shoots the man...what would you have done if you were that police man ??

 

These poeple you are talking about with the unfortunate childhoods and brain injurys are the ones throwing the stones and setting fire to cars and causing damages for millions and millions....so what do you suggest we do to fix the problem ? you just think that the police shall stand aside and look cause using violence is wrong ??

 

Was it wrong to use violence to stop hitler aswell ? All these brave men that used violence to stop the nazis had a unfortunate childhood or brain damages ?

[Pelle]

 

 

 

Just for the record, I don't think this has anything to do with muslims or other religions. These are just bastards of any kind. They throw bricks at firemen who comes to try and put out fires, ffs. That's not protesting, that's just, well, I can't find words for it. And it's not about poverty or inequality either. If anything I'd say it's about the police force.

 

Attacks on firefighters are common in the UK as well.  That may be surprising and shocking for people who see them as heroic figures who put themselves in danger to save lives, but it's true.

 

As for Sweden and the police force, it sounds like the immediate trigger of the violence was the police shooting a man dead in his own home on the (false) basis that he was posing a threat to his wife.  But as with riots elsewhere, there needs to be more than a trigger - the underlying conditions need to be favourable.  The challenge is to identify what conditions make violent unrest more likely, and change the conditions.  The solutions put forward by those who argue for more control, more surveillance, more spying, a network of informants, more violent policing, harsher sentencing, won't work, though they seem to satisfy those of a more punitive and aggressive nature.

 

 

I don't know if I missunderstand you on this one, but it seems like you try to say that firemen ain't all that good. I don't know if they're heroes or not, but they're there to try and put the fire out so people won't get hurt.  So the fire won't expand. They don't offend anyone, they don't use violence against anyone. I can't see any reason for anyone to throw bricks and shit at them.

 

Yes, we have a misunderstanding. Perhaps I didn't express it clearly. I agree with what you say here. I'm simply saying that it's a fact, a regrettable one, that attacks on firefighters are common.

 

Well, there's been a lot of protests against the police force all over the country. Exaggerated violence and all that. And sure, some polices are scums too who take advantage of their psotion and use unnecessary force on people, but most are not. There's a video on youtube on two cops trying to take a man into custody. They're two and the man's got plenty of people around him who're his friends and on his side. On of them are filming it all. They all shout about unnecessary violence and that the man is not making any resistance. The polices are admirably calm and the man is trying to take their sticks and is definitely putting up violent resistance to the polices. Everyone who's seen that video who I've talked to says the same thing. The people around and the man himself are just damn idiots. But the important thing is that they think that the police is doing the wrong things and that the police as a unit is against them. And this spreads among those people. This happened here in Gothenburg in a suburb a while ago. Don't know when. And when their is such an unrest among some people with the police and when a riot like this starts, it's quite easy to think that the reason is the police force, and it doesn't feel rational either.

 

But yes, the areas where these things happens are always poor areas, probably with a lot of unemployment among the citizens. And unfortunately most of them are immigrants, which just creates more racism and uneducated people think all immigrants are the same and that it's only immigrants doing this. Believe me, I've tried to discuss with people having those thoughts and it's impossible to get a good and rational discussion about it. I just get angry.

 

Anyway, there's probably some good reason behind all this, but this is not the way to protest. And they're no victims in this. And I wouldn't be surprised if that man wasn't totally innocent either. But not knowing the details at all, I shall not say anything more about that situation. But it's a hell of a reaction to put the neighbours car on fire because of it. The neighbour hadn't done anything.

 

I don't think all this is just a swedish thing, it's just that right now it happened here. And there are loads of people to blame, not just those in the riots. Media shall not cover themselves in glory for example. And the politicians have done their bit too.

No, it's certainly not just a Swedish thing.

The Swedish case, according to what I've read, went like this. A 69-year-old man was being harassed inside his own home by youths outside the property. He was waving a knife to warn them off. The police came, and banged on the door. He shouted abuse, thinking it was the youths. The police shot him. The police then came up with various lies to protect themselves: his wife was at risk (she denies this). He had a machete (no, he had a knife, in his own home, like we all do). He was urgently taken to hospital where sadly he died (no, he was killed in his home, and the body bag was put in a car, not an ambulance - which the police now admit).

This has many echoes of the incidents which have triggered riots in the UK. Cherry Groce. Mark Duggan. The nameless lads who were arrested on the front line in Brixton, and the cafe in St Pauls, which set off the 1981 riots.

As always, the point is not the particular trigger, but why conditions were such that something would spark such a reaction.

 

 

Yeah, I thought it was a missunderstanding. Or rather, I just wanted to be absolutley sure you didn't mean it in that way.

 

Two things, though:

You weren't there so you don't know if the police were telling lies or not. They might have, but just because the media says so doesn't mean it's the truth. Swedish media ain't better than any other media in the world. Then again, saying one thing first and the another isn't really going to work in their favour.

 

And just because the woman says that she wasn't threatened by her late husband doesn't mean she wasn't. I know, that might sound like, I don't know, well, absurd. Who would you believe if not herself? What I'm trying to say is that it might of course be true too, probably even likely, but a very close female friend of mine and I talk a lot about those things. Abused and terrorised women. Her friends have been beaten by boyfriends, she's been psycholigically abused by her ex and she's worked voluntarely with women who's been abused and been to several classes about this very subject. I couldn't find the right word right now so classes has to do. Seminars? Anyway, unless you don't know about this stuff already I think you'd be surprised by how a surpressed, beaten and psychologically abused woman can still defend her man. Many of them are so scared and broken that they don't dare to say anything bad about them. And even if he's dead, they might defend him, not to forget that he might have a family that she fears. This is just hypothetically and it might very well be just the police who **** it up and killed an innocent man, but I won't be so sure of it just because the media says so.

 

And I can also have missed something that really makes me look like the fool I am.