Bolitics UKIP Nutters

[Jon]

The Greens did superbly well at the Euro ('national')   elections, well enough IMO to be genuinely considered a major political force in this country.

 

Several things will count against them though, at a GE:

 

1. The 'papers' (tabloids) don't care for them, and don't take them seriously or give them much 'airtime' (although this negative is offset to a large degree by the positive gained from the advance of social media, the true nemesis of the tabloids).

2. They have bugger all money compared to the 'big boys'

3. FPTP. The Greens will be lucky to get 1 to 2 seats at the next GE, wheareas pure PR, if they polled at about 8-9% of the nationla vote, would give them a decent amount of H of C seats.

[TrentVilla]

As a point on the influence of the media on how parties are perceived, I hadn't realised that the Green party had outperformed the Lib Dems in those recent Euronational elections. Possibly because the Murdoch press reported them in as 'Others' rather than naming them as a Party. Meanwhile UKIP continue to get six pages a day in the Daily Mail and constant coverage in the Sun, Times and most of the mainstream press; there's something quite sinister I think in the way the newspapers are pressing UKIP, almost as if there's a point they're trying to prove to the major parties.

 

I think there is an element of truth in that but I also think its a reflection of the collective national indifference to Europe and European politics which very few people take notice of let alone interest in. 

[bickster]

As a point on the influence of the media on how parties are perceived, I hadn't realised that the Green party had outperformed the Lib Dems in those recent Euronational elections. Possibly because the Murdoch press reported them in as 'Others' rather than naming them as a Party. Meanwhile UKIP continue to get six pages a day in the Daily Mail and constant coverage in the Sun, Times and most of the mainstream press; there's something quite sinister I think in the way the newspapers are pressing UKIP, almost as if there's a point they're trying to prove to the major parties.

 

I think there is an element of truth in that but I also think its a reflection of the collective national indifference to Europe and European politics which very few people take notice of let alone interest in.

That in itself is down to all the major parties, they should be educating the country on what being in the EU actually means to the country. To most people being in the EU means rules about square bananas and successive governments have failed to put that pro-european message out there even though they are meant to be pro-european.

[tonyh29]

The Greens did superbly well at the Euro ('national')   elections, well enough IMO to be genuinely considered a major political force in this country.

 

Several things will count against them though, at a GE:

 

1. The 'papers' (tabloids) don't care for them, and don't take them seriously or give them much 'airtime' (although this negative is offset to a large degree by the positive gained from the advance of social media, the true nemesis of the tabloids).

2. They have bugger all money compared to the 'big boys'

3. FPTP. The Greens will be lucky to get 1 to 2 seats at the next GE, wheareas pure PR, if they polled at about 8-9% of the nationla vote, would give them a decent amount of H of C seats.

 

 

as I mentioned before (in the labour thread) the word I heard from Brighton is that the Greens will get soundly thrashed in the next GE and aren't popular with the business community and a lot of local residents

 

they will probably be dependant on the students actually bothering to get out of bed to save them 

[tonyh29]

 

 

As a point on the influence of the media on how parties are perceived, I hadn't realised that the Green party had outperformed the Lib Dems in those recent Euronational elections. Possibly because the Murdoch press reported them in as 'Others' rather than naming them as a Party. Meanwhile UKIP continue to get six pages a day in the Daily Mail and constant coverage in the Sun, Times and most of the mainstream press; there's something quite sinister I think in the way the newspapers are pressing UKIP, almost as if there's a point they're trying to prove to the major parties.

 

I think there is an element of truth in that but I also think its a reflection of the collective national indifference to Europe and European politics which very few people take notice of let alone interest in.

 

That in itself is down to all the major parties, they should be educating the country on what being in the EU actually means to the country. To most people being in the EU means rules about square bananas and successive governments have failed to put that pro-european message out there even though they are meant to be pro-european.

 

when everything was going great people didn't care about the immigrants

 

suddenly things turned to ratshit and people feel a bit of pain and want someone to blame  ... and if the Simpsons has taught us any valuable lessons in life it's "blame the guy that doesn't speak English"

 

get everybody back in work and immigration and therefore UKIP will disappear quicker than the UK gold reserves under Gordon Brown

[colhint]

 

 

 

 

That in itself is down to all the major parties, they should be educating the country on what being in the EU actually means to the country. To most people being in the EU means rules about square bananas and successive governments have failed to put that pro-european message out there even though they are meant to be pro-european.

 

I think this is absolutely right. There needs to be a debate and quick. I do hear a lot about straight bananas and also that 3m jobs will be lost. I'm sure there are pro's and cons on either side. It seems all we get though is vague so called facts from any interested parties

[tonyh29]

 

 

 

 

 

That in itself is down to all the major parties, they should be educating the country on what being in the EU actually means to the country. To most people being in the EU means rules about square bananas and successive governments have failed to put that pro-european message out there even though they are meant to be pro-european.

 

I think this is absolutely right. There needs to be a debate and quick. I do hear a lot about straight bananas and also that 3m jobs will be lost. I'm sure there are pro's and cons on either side. It seems all we get though is vague so called facts from any interested parties

 

 

most political views are entrenched  .. you wont get any decent debate because peoples minds are already made up 

 

the for camp will quote the 3m lost jobs and quote "experts " to prove their argument .... the against will counter and say it wont and it will actually create jobs  and give views of different "experts" to prove their point .... and nobody will bother reading either sides case

 

 

I suspect if we had a referendum it would go the way of Scotland with lots of scaremongering and ultimately people will vote to stay in because when they come to put their X in the box they will have that nagging feeling that we should stay as we are ..just in case 

[mjmooney]

As a point on the influence of the media on how parties are perceived, I hadn't realised that the Green party had outperformed the Lib Dems in those recent Euronational elections. Possibly because the Murdoch press reported them in as 'Others' rather than naming them as a Party. Meanwhile UKIP continue to get six pages a day in the Daily Mail and constant coverage in the Sun, Times and most of the mainstream press; there's something quite sinister I think in the way the newspapers are pressing UKIP, almost as if there's a point they're trying to prove to the major parties.

I think there is an element of truth in that but I also think its a reflection of the collective national indifference to Europe and European politics which very few people take notice of let alone interest in.

That in itself is down to all the major parties, they should be educating the country on what being in the EU actually means to the country. To most people being in the EU means rules about square bananas and successive governments have failed to put that pro-european message out there even though they are meant to be pro-european.

when everything was going great people didn't care about the immigrants

suddenly things turned to ratshit and people feel a bit of pain and want someone to blame ... and if the Simpsons has taught us any valuable lessons in life it's "blame the guy that doesn't speak English"

get everybody back in work and immigration and therefore UKIP will disappear quicker than the UK gold reserves under Gordon Brown

mjmooney in "agreeing with tonyh29" shocker.

[Mantis]

when everything was going great people didn't care about the immigrants

 

suddenly things turned to ratshit and people feel a bit of pain and want someone to blame  ... and if the Simpsons has taught us any valuable lessons in life it's "blame the guy that doesn't speak English"

 

get everybody back in work and immigration and therefore UKIP will disappear quicker than the UK gold reserves under Gordon Brown

 

I don't think that's entirely fair. While it certainly is true for some people it's not like there were no concerns about immigration prior to the global financial crisis, it's just become more of a mainstream issue now and you're not automatically branded a racist or a bigot if you bring it up (well, most of the time).

[tonyh29]

 

when everything was going great people didn't care about the immigrants

 

suddenly things turned to ratshit and people feel a bit of pain and want someone to blame  ... and if the Simpsons has taught us any valuable lessons in life it's "blame the guy that doesn't speak English"

 

get everybody back in work and immigration and therefore UKIP will disappear quicker than the UK gold reserves under Gordon Brown

 

I don't think that's entirely fair. While it certainly is true for some people it's not like there were no concerns about immigration prior to the global financial crisis, it's just become more of a mainstream issue now and you're not automatically branded a racist or a bigot if you bring it up (well, most of the time).

 

there were other factors of course ( something of the night about him etc) but 2005 Immigration was pretty much a major Tory policy

 

by and large nobody cared  ..it just wasn't really seen as an issue

 

A yougov poll  from May 2014 had 57% of voters ranking  it as one of their top 3 concerns behind the economy and in front of health

(could be interesting as Labour appear to be making the NHS their big play  (28%) whereas the Tories are going to go with the economy (76%) )

 

interestingly Europe isn't seen as that big an issue for voters , suggesting the UKIP rise is therefore based on immigration policy rather than their EU position

[colhint]

I'm not sure that's true Tony, wasn't early 2000's when Sangatte was on the news everyday?

[tonyh29]

I'm not sure that's true Tony, wasn't early 2000's when Sangatte was on the news everyday?

 

I have to be honest and say I had to Google it ...  it did ring a bell when I saw the article but I don't recall it being a burning issue that people were up in arms about

[Mantis]

It's simply not true that "nobody cared". Yes the issue has become more important to a lot of voters in the last 5 years or so but that doesn't mean it simply didn't exist before the financial crisis. I'm sure there are a number of reasons why this is the case but people "looking for someone to blame" is only one of many reasons I expect.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Mantis

[tonyh29]

It's simply not true that "nobody cared". Yes the issue has become more important to a lot of voters in the last 5 years or so but that doesn't mean it simply didn't exist before the financial crisis. I'm sure there are a number of reasons why this is the case but people "looking for someone to blame" is only one of many reasons I expect.

 

your possibly getting too focussed on the throwaway phrase i used when I said "nobody cared" so that's my bad    ... all I'm saying is it wasn't the burning issue , you didn't hear people talking about it the way you do now  , you had a fringe BNP party but they were pretty much dead  they weren't winning council seats (to my knowledge) or appearing on Question Time  , you didn't get labour apologising for immigration being out of control until 2012 when it became a real vote winner  ... even in the benchmark that matters VT ,   in its early days if you posted about immigration being too high you were very much a minority ( and a racist )  ... that view has changed to some degree , only posters get called little Englanders now instead of racists

 

 

currently 57% of people are concerned about immigration as one of their top concerns  .. in 1999 that figure was 5% 

[Risso]

 

 

 

currently 57% of people are concerned about immigration as one of their top concerns  .. in 1999 that figure was 5% 

 

 

 

Poland didn't join the EU until 2004!

[Mantis]

 

It's simply not true that "nobody cared". Yes the issue has become more important to a lot of voters in the last 5 years or so but that doesn't mean it simply didn't exist before the financial crisis. I'm sure there are a number of reasons why this is the case but people "looking for someone to blame" is only one of many reasons I expect.

 

your possibly getting too focussed on the throwaway phrase i used when I said "nobody cared" so that's my bad    ... all I'm saying is it wasn't the burning issue , you didn't hear people talking about it the way you do now  , you had a fringe BNP party but they were pretty much dead  they weren't winning council seats (to my knowledge) or appearing on Question Time  , you didn't get labour apologising for immigration being out of control until 2012 when it became a real vote winner  ... even in the benchmark that matters VT ,   in its early days if you posted about immigration being too high you were very much a minority ( and a racist )  ... that view has changed to some degree , only posters get called little Englanders now instead of racists

 

 

currently 57% of people are concerned about immigration as one of their top concerns  .. in 1999 that figure was 5% 

 

Interestingly though the BNP have now faded back into obscurity again.

 

As Risso said, I think the recent expansion of the EU probably has quite a bit to do with it.

[tonyh29]

 

 

 

 

currently 57% of people are concerned about immigration as one of their top concerns  .. in 1999 that figure was 5% 

 

 

 

Poland didn't join the EU until 2004!

 

I thought we didn't mind Poles it was Romanians  and Bulgarians we weren't supposed to like  ?

[bickster]

get everybody back in work and immigration and therefore UKIP will disappear quicker than the UK gold reserves under Gordon Brown

So how come the week that it was announced that more people were in employment than before the recession, that UKIP elected their first MP?

On a completely different but recurring point, today on the radio, a man that described himself as a traditional Labour supporter, a man that said to Alan Johnson's face that he thought he was a great MP and that he wished there were more like him, listened to Johnson explain the hypocrisy of UKIP attacking "the privileged elite", whilst actually being part of "the privileged elite." Johnson explained that UKIP were merely Thatcherites outside the Tory Party and this bloke still said he was going to vote for them. A working class man was going to vote UKIP, a party that wants to charge us all to visit a GP, wants to get us out of the EU with all that entails for workers rights was going to vote UKIP. Truly mind bending logic.

[tonyh29]

 

get everybody back in work and immigration and therefore UKIP will disappear quicker than the UK gold reserves under Gordon Brown

So how come the week that it was announced that more people were in employment than before the recession, that UKIP elected their first MP?

 

 

look if Mooney agrees with me you can jog on

 

I guess my view would be that there are unemployment figures and there are massaged unemployment figures .. and we all know which ones the government are using

[bickster]

get everybody back in work and immigration and therefore UKIP will disappear quicker than the UK gold reserves under Gordon Brown

So how come the week that it was announced that more people were in employment than before the recession, that UKIP elected their first MP?

 

look if Mooney agrees with me you can jog on

 

I guess my view would be that there are unemployment figures and there are massaged unemployment figures .. and we all know which ones the government are using

I'd suggest its not just unemployment, its the fact that living standards are still falling despite more people being in work