Margaret Thatcher dies of a stroke.

[blandy]

We could also say; why has Germany managed to keep manufacturing and we haven’t? Why has Germany got lower unemployment than the UK? etc, etc Was it just Thatcher that ruined it, or dare we say other factors?

 

People want a demon to blame for Britain’s ills and in Thatcher they have the perfect figure; makes history easy, but doesn’t really tell the whole truth does it?

They are more Unionised, companies have to have a union representative on their board. They have better protection for workers, more consultation with workers and so on. Their governments have recognised the improtance of making things and supporting manufacturing and engineering. Engineers have higher standing in their society, than here.

Or in short, they did and do the opposite of Thatcherism and the versions of it that have sadly remained in place ever since she started off.

 

An additional comment, about how she took on the Unions and so on.

The Unions were frequently up in arms back then, sometimes with good justification, sometimes with less. However all that stuff about their power and so on, and how they were wrecking the country - it's drivel. The problem at least as much the pathetic, weak, self interested management, more than the unions.

Companies don't get taken down by Unions, they get taken down by bad management.

[drat01]

I find myself nodding like a toy dog in the back of a Austin Allegro in response to all that Pete has written above. The erosion of workers rights has been scandalous, and please let's not have a "ahh but Labour ...." response, because that certainly has been a failing of subsequent Gvmts. The media backing Thatcherite false claims to Union and worker influence have meant that any reintroduction or re-establishment has been a political nightmare

[PauloBarnesi]

 

We could also say; why has Germany managed to keep manufacturing and we haven’t? Why has Germany got lower unemployment than the UK? etc, etc Was it just Thatcher that ruined it, or dare we say other factors?

 

People want a demon to blame for Britain’s ills and in Thatcher they have the perfect figure; makes history easy, but doesn’t really tell the whole truth does it?

They are more Unionised, companies have to have a union representative on their board. They have better protection for workers, more consultation with workers and so on. Their governments have recognised the improtance of making things and supporting manufacturing and engineering. Engineers have higher standing in their society, than here.

Or in short, they did and do the opposite of Thatcherism and the versions of it that have sadly remained in place ever since she started off.

 

An additional comment, about how she took on the Unions and so on.

The Unions were frequently up in arms back then, sometimes with good justification, sometimes with less. However all that stuff about their power and so on, and how they were wrecking the country - it's drivel. The problem at least as much the pathetic, weak, self interested management, more than the unions.

Companies don't get taken down by Unions, they get taken down by bad management.

 

 

I think its a combination of unions and management, the coal industry wasn’t wrecked by the government, nor the management, nor the unions, but all three combined with other circumstances, and one could repeat that across many other industries. Short sighted by all parties involved.

 

I am guessing that ultimately Germany is successful for many reasons. One of them is that they are a damned sight more hard working than us...

[Kingfisher]

Don't the Germans work less hours than us? I bet they have better pay and conditions too.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Kingfisher

[snowychap]

One of them is that they are a damned sight more hard working than us...

Surely people would only think that because they are conditioned to imagine that successful enterprises (in a general sense not a purely business sense) are successes solely (or mainly) as a result of hard work?

Isn't it (the success) likely to be just as much (if not more) down to the 'smartness' (i.e. the efficiency and efficacy) of how one works?

[peterms]

 

One of them is that they are a damned sight more hard working than us...

Surely people would only think that because they are conditioned to imagine that successful enterprises (in a general sense not a purely business sense) are successes solely (or mainly) as a result of hard work?

Isn't it (the success) likely to be just as much (if not more) down to the 'smartness' (i.e. the efficiency and efficacy) of how one works?

 

 

That's right.  Greece and Romania both work longer hours than Germany, as do we.  I'm not quite sure what working "harder" means.  Physical effort?  Level of sustained mental effort?  How would you measure that one?

 

Some suggestions here for things that have contributed to German economic success.  Working long hours, treating the workforce like shit, and vast and widening income inequality surprisingly don't appear on the list.

[Dr_Pangloss]

Don't the Germans work less hours than us? I bet they have better pay and conditions too.

Yes they do, and they work less than those lazy, good for nothing Greeks.

[blandy]

 

 

We could also say; why has Germany managed to keep manufacturing and we haven’t? Why has Germany got lower unemployment than the UK? etc, etc Was it just Thatcher that ruined it, or dare we say other factors?

 

People want a demon to blame for Britain’s ills and in Thatcher they have the perfect figure; makes history easy, but doesn’t really tell the whole truth does it?

They are more Unionised, companies have to have a union representative on their board. They have better protection for workers, more consultation with workers and so on. Their governments have recognised the improtance of making things and supporting manufacturing and engineering. Engineers have higher standing in their society, than here.

Or in short, they did and do the opposite of Thatcherism and the versions of it that have sadly remained in place ever since she started off.

 

An additional comment, about how she took on the Unions and so on.

The Unions were frequently up in arms back then, sometimes with good justification, sometimes with less. However all that stuff about their power and so on, and how they were wrecking the country - it's drivel. The problem at least as much the pathetic, weak, self interested management, more than the unions.

Companies don't get taken down by Unions, they get taken down by bad management.

 

 

I think its a combination of unions and management, the coal industry wasn’t wrecked by the government, nor the management, nor the unions, but all three combined with other circumstances, and one could repeat that across many other industries. Short sighted by all parties involved.

 

I am guessing that ultimately Germany is successful for many reasons. One of them is that they are a damned sight more hard working than us...

No, it really isn't, in my experience, Paul. Obviously, we're each able only to speak from experience, or perhaps directly relayed experience - I work next to someone who worked for more than a decade for EADS in Munich - but anyway, my experience of work, both in the Military, before that in a record department and paper round and for 23 years for the place I work at now is that people work hard. They work long hours, often, and are by and large effective. We have a good relationship between our Union and Management. Maybe that's relevant, and maybe my place is more German like, or maybe it's not. The guy who works next to me    doesn't think the Germans work harder than us, he thinks the opposite.  They have more bank holidays, less hours, better pay and conditions and are probably more expensive in what they do. They do it well, and invest more in their engineering and R&D.How hard people are made to work isn't it. They may be as snowy said, more efficient due to processes , possibly, but I doubt it.

[tinker]

Coal will be like gold in 50 years time, when other countries reserves have diminished. The Germans have good management, so do the Japanese, they empower their workforces rather than dictate, I have worked under both management structures in a Engineering environment.

 

The thing with English companies is people who get to the top are good at playing the game game of "climbing the ladder" this does not make them good leaders. I see plenty of "spot welders in ties" who suck dick but ain't got a **** clue about the anything else, they become experts at pinching other peoples ideas and in doing so alienate their workforce.

 

Thatcher was strong leader, for that alone she deserves some credit. Cameron's tried to use her death to pump his ratings, she would be proud lol, RIP maggie.

[PauloBarnesi]

 

Thatcher was strong leader, for that alone she deserves some credit. Cameron's tried to use her death to pump his ratings, she would be proud lol, RIP maggie.

 

 

Private Eye reminded me that Blair & New Labour feasted on Diana and the Queen Mother’s funerals. Politicians are nothing if not opportunists..

[snowychap]

Private Eye reminded me that Blair & New Labour feasted on Diana and the Queen Mother’s funerals.

That's a troubling image you've conjured up for me there, Paul!

[chrisp65]

Blair feasting on Diana wasn't in the Express.

I bet it will be tomorrow though (unless there's an extreme weather prediction story).

[Xann]

Heh Heh Heh

[villaajax]

They do a Nick Clegg one. It's just as influential as the real thing.

[mjmooney]

I think it's the Churchill comparisons that piss me off the most. Falklands vs. the Blitz??? Come ON. 

 

Both right-wing Tories, but consider this: Churchill united the nation. Thatcher divided it.

 

Diametric opposites. 

[chrisp65]

I think it's the Churchill comparisons that piss me off the most. Falklands vs. the Blitz??? Come ON. 

 

Both right-wing Tories, but consider this: Churchill united the nation. Thatcher divided it.

 

Diametric opposites. 

 

oi, don't wander in here late and try and kick it all off again

 

it's alright for you, swaning off on your hols and sunning it up in some fully serviced beach cabin

 

it's taken us a week to shame the loony right into realising 10 million on a state funeral may have been a bit off

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Don't the Germans work less hours than us? I bet they have better pay and conditions too.

Yes they do, and they work less than those lazy, good for nothing Greeks.

True. Problem with those lazy, good for nothing Greeks is that they point blank refuse to pay taxes. The system is lost on them culturally speaking.

[peterms]

 

 

Don't the Germans work less hours than us? I bet they have better pay and conditions too.

Yes they do, and they work less than those lazy, good for nothing Greeks.

True. Problem with those lazy, good for nothing Greeks is that they point blank refuse to pay taxes. The system is lost on them culturally speaking.

 

 

If only they were as respectful of tax collection arrangements as the Brits.

[mjmooney]

 

I think it's the Churchill comparisons that piss me off the most. Falklands vs. the Blitz??? Come ON. 

 

Both right-wing Tories, but consider this: Churchill united the nation. Thatcher divided it.

 

Diametric opposites. 

 

oi, don't wander in here late and try and kick it all off again

 

it's alright for you, swaning off on your hols and sunning it up in some fully serviced beach cabin

 

it's taken us a week to shame the loony right into realising 10 million on a state funeral may have been a bit off

 

 

Sunning it up? See the "Piss you off" thread...   

[Mantis]

To be fair if Britain was under attack like it was during WWII the one PM I would want in charge besides Churchill would be Thatcher.