Did we get rid of the wrong lot?

[TRO]

Stats will tell you so much....like look at our home record in the same era you pontificate about.

 

The more time that passes has nothing to do with our discussion.

 

It is my opinion that where we are now manifested itself from O'Neill.

 

O'Neill had 4 years and spent a bucket load of money, in the main his signings were workmanlike and debatable technical skills with the odd exception. He did manage some credible results but failed to show any kind on quality on the ball or had any kind of ability to keep control of a game in short it was smash and grab football. (The 6-6-6 was a fact but when analysed was not exactly believeable there were periods on inconsistency it was a bit peaky and troughy)Hence the better away record than at home....Fortress Villa was a distant memory...without joining in the stats i think we managed about 50% wins.

 

The managers that took over, took over from a team that just managed to lose to Chelsea away 7-0 and Newcastle 6.. I think managed by Kevin Mcdonald who would have been privvy to Mon's methods.... in short we was on the decline after all that time and money. Martin O'Neill had only just left in stark contrast to Saunders leaving and leaving a legacy sustainable by his statement of " this team will carry on for 12 months after i have gone" that was the confidence he had in the sustainable model he had built.

 

The managers that have subsequently carried on from Martin O'Neill have faired worse without doubt.... albeit they only had c 12 months each. good job I hear you say, but thats all they had ( fact)... don't ever remember many managers been brought to account on the back of 12 months, but hey thats just opinions.

 

I have always felt and always will that whilst Martin O'Neill did have an effect on Aston Villa ..did create a modicum of impact....did put some pride back....did get something from the players on a game to game basis. There were as many flaws as there was good things, in other words he was good in parts.

 

Martin O'Neill has a managerial record that far outweighs Brian Little for instance but I much preferrred Aston Villa under Brian Little. I much preferred Aston Villa Under Ron Saunders, but his tenure went sour Like O'Neills, I think John Gregory did as good a job as O'Neill, but his managerial stature would not be mentioned in the same breath....Martin O'Neill has a great ability to present himself as better than he really is, he has an articulate/arrogant mannner than dismisses questioning or criticism and deflects to any kind of difference of opinion....The other managers were more likely to trade punches in that respect particularly Graham Taylor and Brian Little... They would listen to your points.

 

Make doubly sure what I am saying.....I am not saying that Martin Oneill is wholly and soley responsible for what we have right now, that would be inaccurate.what I am saying is that what we have today was showing signs under his watch ( particularly the inability to keep the ball under control with comfort)and in my opinion, we have gradually got worse.

PS ...many players that O'Neill bought for good bucks, could't trap a bag of cement or pass wind.

Edited March 2, 2013 by TRO

[TRO]

 

 

The managers that took over, took over from a team that just managed to lose to Chelsea away 7-0 and Newcastle 6.. I think managed by Kevin Mcdonald who would have been privvy to Mon's methods.... in short we was on the decline after all that time and money. 

AW, c'mon, TRO, surely you can do better than that?

 

Blaming your least favourite manager of all time for the 0-6 against Newcastle, which happened after he had left the club, is quite creative, but there must be a way to finger him for this season's 0-8 against Chelsea as well? 

 

I think he was referring to the 7-1 loss against chelsea when MON actually was in charge. And for the 6-0 loss, well, the club was really in a turmoil at that time. Partly because of MON. It was always going to upset the squad and the rest when a manager leaves like that.

 

Thanks for the correction, I was more interested in promoting the point of not all was rosey under Mon than quoting the accuracy of 2 poor results.... but thanks for putting it right.

[briny_ear]

TRO, whether things were rosy under MON or not is totally irrelevant in the light of the complete ****-up the owner, chief executive and a succession of useless managers have made of the club since he left. I fail to see the point of writing long analyses of how useless the manager of two or three seasons ago was, and how his three sixth places in a row were not "believable" (?), when we are facing relegation now and the collective forces of the club are struggling to get us out of the hole.

 

Suppose you managed to convince the world at large that your least favourite manager was useless in his time at Villa and all the poor results we are having now are entirely down to him? How would that help us get even an inch nearer safety and future viabilty as a club?

[markavfc40]

TRO, whether things were rosy under MON or not is totally irrelevant in the light of the complete ****-up the owner, chief executive and a succession of useless managers have made of the club since he left. I fail to see the point of writing long analyses of how useless the manager of two or three seasons ago was, and how his three sixth places in a row were not "believable" (?), when we are facing relegation now and the collective forces of the club are struggling to get us out of the hole.

 

Suppose you managed to convince the world at large that your least favourite manager was useless in his time at Villa and all the poor results we are having now are entirely down to him? How would that help us get even an inch nearer safety and future viabilty as a club?

 

 

I can remember way back in December 2010 when we were struggling under Houllier TRO was blaming Mon for our woes. I can remember telling him then that it would be a dangerous game for the club and fans to blame a man that could no longer do **** all about things and that it was time for those at the club now to take responsibility. I honestly can't still believe that someone who left almost 3 years ago, who in relative terms we did OK under, is still getting the blame for our struggles now. It is even more remarkable when you consider that come the end of this season when Dunne and Stan will be out of contract that only one player he signed will remain, Delph, and he has been given a contract extension since O'Neill left.

Edited March 2, 2013 by markavfc40

[Mantis]

O'Neill's poor spending of transfer funds and ridiculous contracts he had players on is one of the main reasons why we've had these drastic cutbacks in recent seasons, which in turn have resulted in our slip down the table (that and bad managerial appointments). Whether people like or not O'Neill (and Lerner) are the two main people responsible for the club's problems.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Mantis

[CI]

Don't forget Faulkner. He's played a major part in this fiasco.

[AndyBM]

ok, so we can all agree to an extent, that when lerner took over, he knew fu ck all about this club and about the league, it was nice of him to throw loads of money at buying loads of players for him not to really know the profiles of the players bought, that however he gave his trust in to MON

 

MON clearly abused that priviledge buy buying sh ite, he spent far too much on footballers that werent going to get us were lerner wanted to get us - europe!

 

so indirectly, yes, MON is to blame, because now lerner wont cough up the money needed to only actually aim for europe, but to just actually survive and stay in this league, which is more important for any club, stability

 

however directly, then ye, MONs connection to this club is now in the history books, not may more players of his left, just petrov, dunne and delph, one cant play, one doesnt want to play and the other doesnt know how to play

[TRO]

TRO, whether things were rosy under MON or not is totally irrelevant in the light of the complete ****-up the owner, chief executive and a succession of useless managers have made of the club since he left. I fail to see the point of writing long analyses of how useless the manager of two or three seasons ago was, and how his three sixth places in a row were not "believable" (?), when we are facing relegation now and the collective forces of the club are struggling to get us out of the hole.

 

Suppose you managed to convince the world at large that your least favourite manager was useless in his time at Villa and all the poor results we are having now are entirely down to him? How would that help us get even an inch nearer safety and future viabilty as a club?

 I havn't convinced anyone, they can see it for themselves.... and i didn't say he was useless.

 

you are reading my post and because you will hear nothing said about him you go off on a tangent and make up your own interpretation. He doesn't have to be here right now for the effect of his poor spending to have an detrimental ffect on the club.... yes subsequent managers have faired worse, but that doesn't make him better. I was relating to what I see as the source of the problem.

 

Where I do agree is yes some where some how we need someone to turn it around.

[TRO]

ok, so we can all agree to an extent, that when lerner took over, he knew fu ck all about this club and about the league, it was nice of him to throw loads of money at buying loads of players for him not to really know the profiles of the players bought, that however he gave his trust in to MON

 

MON clearly abused that priviledge buy buying sh ite, he spent far too much on footballers that werent going to get us were lerner wanted to get us - europe!

 

so indirectly, yes, MON is to blame, because now lerner wont cough up the money needed to only actually aim for europe, but to just actually survive and stay in this league, which is more important for any club, stability

 

however directly, then ye, MONs connection to this club is now in the history books, not may more players of his left, just petrov, dunne and delph, one cant play, one doesnt want to play and the other doesnt know how to play

 

.....was what I was trying to say, but clearly didn't get through to some other posters.

[TRO]

TRO, whether things were rosy under MON or not is totally irrelevant in the light of the complete ****-up the owner, chief executive and a succession of useless managers have made of the club since he left. I fail to see the point of writing long analyses of how useless the manager of two or three seasons ago was, and how his three sixth places in a row were not "believable" (?), when we are facing relegation now and the collective forces of the club are struggling to get us out of the hole.

 

Suppose you managed to convince the world at large that your least favourite manager was useless in his time at Villa and all the poor results we are having now are entirely down to him? How would that help us get even an inch nearer safety and future viabilty as a club?

 

 

I can remember way back in December 2010 when we were struggling under Houllier TRO was blaming Mon for our woes. I can remember telling him then that it would be a dangerous game for the club and fans to blame a man that could no longer do **** all about things and that it was time for those at the club now to take responsibility. I honestly can't still believe that someone who left almost 3 years ago, who in relative terms we did OK under, is still getting the blame for our struggles now. It is even more remarkable when you consider that come the end of this season when Dunne and Stan will be out of contract that only one player he signed will remain, Delph, and he has been given a contract extension since O'Neill left.

That is not true Mark I wasn't blaming him for our woes as you put it ..... like everything that happens is his fault.

 

I was refering to the state of affairs he left, like poor players and the treasure chest gone.

 

You make it sound like I was Blaming MON for the tactics and who takes the throw ins which is ridiculous.

 

I said at the time he has put this club back years and he has....indirectly.

[TRO]

TRO, whether things were rosy under MON or not is totally irrelevant in the light of the complete ****-up the owner, chief executive and a succession of useless managers have made of the club since he left. I fail to see the point of writing long analyses of how useless the manager of two or three seasons ago was, and how his three sixth places in a row were not "believable" (?), when we are facing relegation now and the collective forces of the club are struggling to get us out of the hole.

 

Suppose you managed to convince the world at large that your least favourite manager was useless in his time at Villa and all the poor results we are having now are entirely down to him? How would that help us get even an inch nearer safety and future viabilty as a club?

 

 

I can remember way back in December 2010 when we were struggling under Houllier TRO was blaming Mon for our woes. I can remember telling him then that it would be a dangerous game for the club and fans to blame a man that could no longer do **** all about things and that it was time for those at the club now to take responsibility. I honestly can't still believe that someone who left almost 3 years ago, who in relative terms we did OK under, is still getting the blame for our struggles now. It is even more remarkable when you consider that come the end of this season when Dunne and Stan will be out of contract that only one player he signed will remain, Delph, and he has been given a contract extension since O'Neill left.

only one player he signed will remain.

 

says it all Mark, you kinda said it for me.

 

TRO, whether things were rosy under MON or not is totally irrelevant in the light of the complete ****-up the owner, chief executive and a succession of useless managers have made of the club since he left. I fail to see the point of writing long analyses of how useless the manager of two or three seasons ago was, and how his three sixth places in a row were not "believable" (?), when we are facing relegation now and the collective forces of the club are struggling to get us out of the hole.

 

Suppose you managed to convince the world at large that your least favourite manager was useless in his time at Villa and all the poor results we are having now are entirely down to him? How would that help us get even an inch nearer safety and future viabilty as a club?

 

 

I can remember way back in December 2010 when we were struggling under Houllier TRO was blaming Mon for our woes. I can remember telling him then that it would be a dangerous game for the club and fans to blame a man that could no longer do **** all about things and that it was time for those at the club now to take responsibility. I honestly can't still believe that someone who left almost 3 years ago, who in relative terms we did OK under, is still getting the blame for our struggles now. It is even more remarkable when you consider that come the end of this season when Dunne and Stan will be out of contract that only one player he signed will remain, Delph, and he has been given a contract extension since O'Neill left.

"only one player he signed will remain".

 

says it all Mark, you kinda said it for me.

 

[Woodytom]

Don't forget Faulkner. He's played a major part in this fiasco.

 

 

Wasnt it Faulkner who recognised the issues regarding finances that had somehow gone unseen by Lerner/O'neill?

[Woodytom]

Stats will tell you so much....like look at our home record in the same era you pontificate about.

 

The more time that passes has nothing to do with our discussion.

 

It is my opinion that where we are now manifested itself from O'Neill.

 

O'Neill had 4 years and spent a bucket load of money, in the main his signings were workmanlike and debatable technical skills with the odd exception. He did manage some credible results but failed to show any kind on quality on the ball or had any kind of ability to keep control of a game in short it was smash and grab football. (The 6-6-6 was a fact but when analysed was not exactly believeable there were periods on inconsistency it was a bit peaky and troughy)Hence the better away record than at home....Fortress Villa was a distant memory...without joining in the stats i think we managed about 50% wins.

 

The managers that took over, took over from a team that just managed to lose to Chelsea away 7-0 and Newcastle 6.. I think managed by Kevin Mcdonald who would have been privvy to Mon's methods.... in short we was on the decline after all that time and money. Martin O'Neill had only just left in stark contrast to Saunders leaving and leaving a legacy sustainable by his statement of " this team will carry on for 12 months after i have gone" that was the confidence he had in the sustainable model he had built.

 

The managers that have subsequently carried on from Martin O'Neill have faired worse without doubt.... albeit they only had c 12 months each. good job I hear you say, but thats all they had ( fact)... don't ever remember many managers been brought to account on the back of 12 months, but hey thats just opinions.

 

I have always felt and always will that whilst Martin O'Neill did have an effect on Aston Villa ..did create a modicum of impact....did put some pride back....did get something from the players on a game to game basis. There were as many flaws as there was good things, in other words he was good in parts.

 

Martin O'Neill has a managerial record that far outweighs Brian Little for instance but I much preferrred Aston Villa under Brian Little. I much preferred Aston Villa Under Ron Saunders, but his tenure went sour Like O'Neills, I think John Gregory did as good a job as O'Neill, but his managerial stature would not be mentioned in the same breath....Martin O'Neill has a great ability to present himself as better than he really is, he has an articulate/arrogant mannner than dismisses questioning or criticism and deflects to any kind of difference of opinion....The other managers were more likely to trade punches in that respect particularly Graham Taylor and Brian Little... They would listen to your points.

 

Make doubly sure what I am saying.....I am not saying that Martin Oneill is wholly and soley responsible for what we have right now, that would be inaccurate.what I am saying is that what we have today was showing signs under his watch ( particularly the inability to keep the ball under control with comfort)and in my opinion, we have gradually got worse.

PS ...many players that O'Neill bought for good bucks, could't trap a bag of cement or pass wind.

 

 

An excellent post that TRO

[Woodytom]

TRO, whether things were rosy under MON or not is totally irrelevant in the light of the complete ****-up the owner, chief executive and a succession of useless managers have made of the club since he left. I fail to see the point of writing long analyses of how useless the manager of two or three seasons ago was, and how his three sixth places in a row were not "believable" (?), when we are facing relegation now and the collective forces of the club are struggling to get us out of the hole.

 

Suppose you managed to convince the world at large that your least favourite manager was useless in his time at Villa and all the poor results we are having now are entirely down to him? How would that help us get even an inch nearer safety and future viabilty as a club?

 

 

I can remember way back in December 2010 when we were struggling under Houllier TRO was blaming Mon for our woes. I can remember telling him then that it would be a dangerous game for the club and fans to blame a man that could no longer do **** all about things and that it was time for those at the club now to take responsibility. I honestly can't still believe that someone who left almost 3 years ago, who in relative terms we did OK under, is still getting the blame for our struggles now. It is even more remarkable when you consider that come the end of this season when Dunne and Stan will be out of contract that only one player he signed will remain, Delph, and he has been given a contract extension since O'Neill left.

 

 

The point is as you say 'we did OK'!! We should have gone to places no other Villa team has gone on the back of the money that was spent. Not just done OK.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Woodytom

[briny_ear]

This is just a totally pointless debate that has gone round and round and will presumably do so for ever.

 

Much of it is down to opinion but I think it's probably worth pointing out that the amount of money Lerner has put into the club is nowhere near an amount that meant we "should have gone to places no other Villa team has gone". That's just plain silly. First of all, there was that team that won the European Cup. How much further can you go than that?. 

 

Secondly, if you want to see how much money is needed to get a foothole in the Champions League these days, please refer to Chelsea and Man C. Lerner isn't in their league and his money, if it had been spent wisely with a good business plan, might have been good enough to get us back to challenging for a top 6 place and the odd trophy - i.e. where we were in the late 90s.

[Woodytom]

This is just a totally pointless debate that has gone round and round and will presumably do so for ever.

 

Much of it is down to opinion but I think it's probably worth pointing out that the amount of money Lerner has put into the club is nowhere near an amount that meant we "should have gone to places no other Villa team has gone". That's just plain silly. First of all, there was that team that won the European Cup. How much further can you go than that?. 

 

Secondly, if you want to see how much money is needed to get a foothole in the Champions League these days, please refer to Chelsea and Man C. Lerner isn't in their league and his money, if it had been spent wisely with a good business plan, might have been good enough to get us back to challenging for a top 6 place and the odd trophy - i.e. where we were in the late 90s.

 

 

Your argument is blown apart by Spurs.

 

Still clinging to an old skool European cup that Nottingham Forest have won twice as much as us. Outside Aston Villa, nobody really cares. Very few actually know. 

[CI]

Don't forget Faulkner. He's played a major part in this fiasco.

 

 

Wasnt it Faulkner who recognised the issues regarding finances that had somehow gone unseen by Lerner/O'neill?

Things starting to go pear shaped ever since Faulkner took over from Fitzgerald. For me that's no coincidence.

[Woodytom]

 

Don't forget Faulkner. He's played a major part in this fiasco.

 

 

Wasnt it Faulkner who recognised the issues regarding finances that had somehow gone unseen by Lerner/O'neill?

Things starting to go pear shaped ever since Faulkner took over from Fitzgerald. For me that's no coincidence.

 

Fitzgerald left in 2008.

 

Faulkner joined in 2010.

 

Who or what was in between?

[Woodytom]

It would appear that in that time there was nobody really keeping a grip on things. So I would say it was a good job Paul Faulkner was appointed.

[TRO]

Would the cutbacks or financial meltdown been present if the quality of player we used those valuable funds on.... Been met.I doubt it very much.

If most of the players were like downing, young or Milner we wouldn't be in this mess....but they actually represented the exception rather than the rule.

Most of the players we moved on ,were fully amortised as they held no value to a prospective buyer. ...as a direct result of that a financial solution had to be addressed....we lost millions, despite off setting the obvious revenue gained.

Here we are.