smetrov Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Can we all agree then that actually bombing out the high earners - and replacing them with players on 5k & 10k isn't the way forward Its already cost us £70m in TV money, No other premier club is cutting costs to the extent we are. - and I don't believe our wages are that out of line with other prem clubs Nice try Randy, but were not fooled any more 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PandaMac Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) Don't think it was the case of bombing out all of the high earner's, we just needed better value for money than what we were getting. I don't know exactly but I imagine Collin's was on about 50k a week, whereas Vlaar's probably on what 30k. I know who'd I'd rather have. Unfortunately we handed out those sort of contract's to squad player's as well and only at the end of this season will we see all of them gone barring Given and Bent. I do agree to the bit about other's cutting cost's to the extent we are though. It's getting ridiculous that we can't seem to splash the cash on someone like Sissoko who we could probably resell in the future for quite a bit more money if we had to. Edited January 31, 2013 by PandaMac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 Don't think it was the case of bombing out all of the high earner's, we just needed better value for money than what we were getting. I don't know exactly but I imagine Collin's was on about 50k a week, whereas Vlaar's probably on what 30k. I know who'd I'd rather have. Unfortunately we handed out those sort of contract's to squad player's as well and only at the end of this season will we see all of them gone barring Given and Bent. I do agree to the bit about other's cutting cost's to the extent we are though. It's getting ridiculous that we can't seem to splash the cash on someone like Sissoko who we could probably resell in the future for quite a bit more money if we had to. But we are cutting income faster than we are cutting costs - we've tossed £70m out of the window tonight. Theres always some players that don't work out - equally we did well out of Barry, Milner,Young, Downing - I just don't see low wages as a way forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Can we all agree then that actually bombing out the high earners - and replacing them with players on 5k & 10k isn't the way forward No, I don't agree. I keep hearing that there's a direct correlation between wage bill and league placing. Then I look at the people who play for us, the (reputed) wages they are on and what they deliver by way of effort and results, and I think that correlation just doesn't hold. I would like nothing more than to get rid of most of the highest paid players in this club. At least to that extent, though Lerner may otherwise be a drooling imbecile who wouldn't know a sensible business strategy if it crawled up his leg and bit his arse, I agree with what is being attempted at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) What has been attempted is increasingly looking like leading to the Championship, awesome strategy. In fact it has been pretty brainless, the club has failed to strike the right balance between young players and experienced heads. Edited January 31, 2013 by Dr_Pangloss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3te Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Theres always some players that don't work out this is very true, but is there any other club in world football that has released as many multi million pound signings as we have in the last 6 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 this is very true, but is there any other club in world football that has released as many multi million pound signings as we have in the last 6 years? Yes - We are currently just making more noise about it. Equally can you name a club - who have doubled there money like we have with Young, Milner, Etc - our total net spend since MON left is around £7m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3te Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Yes - We are currently just making more noise about it. Equally can you name a club - who have doubled there money like we have with Young, Milner, Etc - our total net spend since MON left is around £7m i love this "young, milner etc." thing, there's no etc, just replace it with downing. that's it and who are the other clubs who've released 3/4 of their big money signings in the last 6 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingsombrero Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I don't necessarily agree with the way he's going about it but he had to make it stop. I mean look at it, flick through the years, it's a **** car crash and the wages aren't even on there. http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/aston-villa/transfers/verein_405_2008_default_default_alle_a.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 No, I don't agree. I keep hearing that there's a direct correlation between wage bill and league placing. Then I look at the people who play for us, the (reputed) wages they are on and what they deliver by way of effort and results, and I think that correlation just doesn't hold. I would like nothing more than to get rid of most of the highest paid players in this club. At least to that extent, though Lerner may otherwise be a drooling imbecile who wouldn't know a sensible business strategy if it crawled up his leg and bit his arse, I agree with what is being attempted at the moment. But who are these players ? Ireland - Granted Given - Yes Bent - 1 goal in 2, not being selected - we will recoup a sizeable fee Gabby - faded in the last few years - but overall worth his wage Dunne - Injured - but been a good player for us You are welcome to dispute the odd 1 or 2 - but the notion that we have a whole of army of players sitting around earning £60k per week - just isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 i love this "young, milner etc." thing, there's no etc, just replace it with downing. that's it and who are the other clubs who've released 3/4 of their big money signings in the last 6 years? Who are you actually thinking, that came for big money and then went on a free ? - I can only think of Cuellar ? \ Warnock Sure Heskey, Beye, but they only came for around £3m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 But who are these players ? Ireland - Granted Given - Yes Bent - 1 goal in 2, not being selected - we will recoup a sizeable fee Gabby - faded in the last few years - but overall worth his wage Dunne - Injured - but been a good player for us You are welcome to dispute the odd 1 or 2 - but the notion that we have a whole of army of players sitting around earning £60k per week - just isn't true. I would include people like Hutton and Warnock, Beye, in fact quite a few others. The club slipped into a culture of agreeing high wage contracts which turned out to be unaffordable. That was supposed to be why they pushed MON out the door, though of course responsibility for agreeing terms lies with the board unless they choose to pass on that responsibility and not be answerable for it. Didn't we hear, shortly after MON left, that the board gave Young an increase to £65k or something, quite unconnected with any contract extension, shortly after which he left? You will have seen the figures showing we are among the clubs with the highest wages bills. They've been posted often enough. Do you think the reports are false? If not, do you think we employ many more players than most clubs? If you don't think either of these things, then I suppose you are left agreeing that we probably pay quite a few players quite a lot of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 I would include people like Hutton and Warnock, Beye, in fact quite a few others. The club slipped into a culture of agreeing high wage contracts which turned out to be unaffordable. That was supposed to be why they pushed MON out the door, though of course responsibility for agreeing terms lies with the board unless they choose to pass on that responsibility and not be answerable for it. Didn't we hear, shortly after MON left, that the board gave Young an increase to £65k or something, quite unconnected with any contract extension, shortly after which he left? You will have seen the figures showing we are among the clubs with the highest wages bills. They've been posted often enough. Do you think the reports are false? If not, do you think we employ many more players than most clubs? If you don't think either of these things, then I suppose you are left agreeing that we probably pay quite a few players quite a lot of money. I would disagree that Hutton is a higher earner - £30k what I heard. I think the problem is that the going rate for a decent prem player is £40k a week. When we recruit such a player, if he isn't in the team, we call him deadwood, a high earner on the books - I don't believe we have many players earning above £40k at all. I have seen the figures, yes, but I believe they are a few years old now - and our wages have fallen from 80, to 50m. However becoming a low wage club comes with its consequences, our revenue is likely to take a massive hit in terms of TV money, our sponsor isn't renewing, so we have to find a sponsor as a non prem club, attendances and season tickets will fall. With that prospect lowering the wage bill will have limited impact in making us profitable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3te Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Who are you actually thinking, that came for big money and then went on a free ? - I can only think of Cuellar ? \ Warnock Sure Heskey, Beye, but they only came for around £3m our last 6 years' signings: Stiliyan Petrov - £6,500,000 - Will be released Didier Agathe - Free - Released Chris Sutton - Free - Released John Carew - P/X - Released Ashley Young - £9,650,000 - Sold for Profit Shaun Maloney - £1m - Sold for Loss Nigel Reo-Coker - £8.5m - Released Marlon Harewood - £4m - Released Zat Knight - £3.5m - Sold for Cost Moustapha Salifou - 50p - Released Wayne Routledge £1.25m - Sold for Loss Curtis Davies - £10m - Sold for Loss Steven Sidwell - £5.5m - Released Brad Friedel - £2m - Released Brad Guzan - £600k - Released (and resigned) Nicky Shorey - £5m - Released (or sold for nominal fee, depending on where you look) Luke Young - £5m - Released (or sold for nominal fee, depending on where you look) Carlos Cuellar - £7.8m - Released James Milner - £12m - Sold for Profit Emile Heskey - £3.5m - Released Stewart Downing - £12m - Sold for Profit Fabian Delph - Still at Club Habib Beye - £3.5m - Released Stephen Warnock - £8m - Releaased James Collins - £5m - Sold for Loss Richard Dunne - £5m - Still at Club, Will Be Released in June Stephen Ireland - £8m - Will likely be released due to wages Jean Makoun - £6m - Will likely be released Darren Bent - £24m - Will be sold for loss Shay Given - £3.5m - Will likely be released due to wages Charles N'Zogbia - £9.5m - Will likely be sold for loss Alan Hutton - £4m - Will likely be sold for loss or released Enda Stevens - £250k - Still at Club Karim El Ahmadi - £2m - Still at Club Brett Holman - Free - Still at Club Matthew Lowton - £3m - Still at Club Ron Vlaar - £3.2m - Still at Club Joe Bennett - £3m - Still at Club Jordan Bowery - £300k - Still at Club Christian Benteke - £8m - Still at Club Ashley Westwood - £4m - Still at Club Yacouba Sylla - £2m - Still at Club So counting players whose contracts expire in June as released, that's: 42 players signed 17 released 17 still at club 4 of those still at club likely to be released 3 sold for profit 4 sold for loss 1 sold at cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 (edited) Pete you are a little out in what you have said above. Maloney was sold for what we bought him for, we made a profit on Zat Knight of around 500k - 1 mill and Luke Young was sold to QPR for around 2 mill. We have clearly let a lot of players go for nothing but some had a big enough impact that even if you factor in the tranfer fee they were value for money. Petrov at 6 mill has proved excellent value, Carew in a swap for Baros made a big impact and gave decent service, Friedel at 2 mill again excellent. Generally though in terms of wages overall with a decent manager you get what you pay for. In O'Neills last 3 season we had the 8th, 6th and 6th highest wage bill and finished sixth three times on the spin. I would be confident in predicting that the top 6-7 clubs this season will be pretty much made up of the top those teams with the highest wage bills. You will of course always get the odd exception but in the main that will be the case. Edited February 1, 2013 by markavfc40 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Better players demand higher wages because they are better players funnily enough. If you want to be a better team then you need a fair proportion of better players, even more surprisingly. Football really is that simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Better players demand higher wages because they are better players funnily enough. If you want to be a better team then you need a fair proportion of better players, even more surprisingly. Football really is that simple Oddly, as in real life, the people on the highest pay don't necessarily deliver the best value, or even comparable effort and results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarjei Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 I would be confident in predicting that the top 6-7 clubs this season will be pretty much made up of the top those teams with the highest wage bills. You will of course always get the odd exception but in the main that will be the case. Then why even try? Heck why even play football. Can't we just compare wage bills and call it. I know what you are saying, and though perhaps not so clear cut of course it is true, but I still think a decent manager that makes the right decision and creates a good atmosphere in a club can do a lot with less money. Also, this strategy is not forever. I don't think Lerner is going to bankroll the club, but if the club becomes succesfull it will also generate an increasing turnover, which will allow higher wages over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Then why even try? Heck why even play football. Can't we just compare wage bills and call it. I know what you are saying, and though perhaps not so clear cut of course it is true, but I still think a decent manager that makes the right decision and creates a good atmosphere in a club can do a lot with less money. Also, this strategy is not forever. I don't think Lerner is going to bankroll the club, but if the club becomes succesfull it will also generate an increasing turnover, which will allow higher wages over time. Exactly my friend. The playing staff needed a complete overhaul as it has been such poor value for money and we have gambled by not gambling. I think it had to be done though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 This mood we seem to have got into about hounding out all the higher earners in the club is like a permanent Maoist revolution. No matter how many you hound out, there will always be a new earner who needs to go. Where is all this leading us? If we want to compete in the premier league we obviously need to pay the wages demanded by players good enough to compete. It doesn't seem that Lerner wants to do that any more. Either he has bought the idea that he can create a club that can succeed in the premier league without paying those wages - which is simply wrong - or he has decided to downsize the club so that it survives financially in the Championship or maybe lower. It would be nice if he would tell us which of those it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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