Supporter Buyout

[P3te]

Well there's not enough time for anyone to buy from Lerner and invest in this window so unless there's a miracle Lerners going to have an investment worth far less than he has paid in to it come the end of the season because his investment so far has brought him the worst team in the Premier League. Look at how difficult it is to bounce straight back up now? And it get's more difficult as the parachute payments increase after next year?

im beginning to think lerner reckons we'll be able to go down, get rid of the big earners and come back up with a rigid pay structure in place that's based off the fact that we're "a promoted team". obviously nobody has told him the championship is a tough league to get out of

[leviramsey]

Even if the market value of the club in the Championship is 40m, that doesn't mean Lerner has to sell if someone offers 40m.

The only things that will see Lerner sell, IMO, are:

* someone offers 150m or more (and it might even be 200m)

* the club goes into administration (basically: Lerner runs out of money)

* Villa burns through enough of Lerner's money that he's down to, say $10m (much lower than that and there's a dangerously high chance that he might have to actually get a job and work...), that he sells

After the sale of the Browns, taxes, the divorce, and family shares, Lerner's probably got $300m or so (call it 175m pounds) cash money to call his own. Even if Villa languish in the Championship to the point that the parachute payments run out, a deficit of 10m a year should still be able to see the club staying in the promotion mix. So sometime around 2030 is when Lerner runs out of money.

Can you wait?

Edited January 24, 2013 by leviramsey

[MikeMcKenna]

As I have said several times, I think any fan initiative would be extremely difficult if not impossible. As the maths prove a straightforward buy out and future financing led by fans would be absolutely impossible. It wouldnt be possible or preferable to do it along the lines of Ebbsfleet or to copy the likes of AFC Wimbledon or Exeter. But there are many ways to the skin a cat…..

For the sake of discussion; Say Randy Lerner would be happy to at least talk about the idea of fans acquiring a minority interest with the potential over time to take a greater interest. We know from the few interviews that he has done that he agrees that "Sports" clubs are spiritually the property of the fans and that he agrees they should ultimately be owned by the "community". Any approach would have to be well planned, highly professional, well thought through and have the backing of noted & respected indicidual fans. Obviously if an approach was made and his response was negative,  there would nowhere to go with this idea.

As I showed earlier in this thread Randy Lerner very much admires The Green Bay Packers model in the USA which is the only "community" owned NFL club, one of  the most successful ever and rated regularly 1 or 2 as the most popular across the USA. I quote again here from the interview on www.clevelandscene.com dated February 2012:

"He (RL) recently passed among his front-office staff an article from Business Week called "The Green Bay Packers Have the Best Owners in Football." The piece chronicles the wild and sustained success of the only team in the NFL owned by the city in which it plays. It's an arrangement now forbidden by league rules. But that idea of public ownership — the team as city property, a civic institution never to be taken away — sticks with Lerner. "I think it should belong to the city," he says in a hypothetical reverie. In 1899, England's Football Association created a rule, later to be known as Rule 34, that restricted the profits of member clubs. Shareholders could take only a 5 percent dividend, and directors were not allowed to be paid. The idea was to legislate the protection of clubs as nonprofits, to ensure they were not run out of greed. Directors, history notes, should be "custodians" — that word sound familiar? — and running the team was a
public service, all in pursuit of keeping the heart and soul of the sport pure and ticket prices affordable. Lerner likes to talk about Rule 34, which obviously isn't in effect any longer. He gave a speech on the arcane, now almost-unthinkable idea at Clare College in Cambridge, where he studied for a year before graduating from Columbia. "It really just gets to the heart of the idea of ownership," Lerner says while miming like he's twisting a screw. He often talks with his hands — pointing, gesticulating, demonstrating. "What does it mean to own one of these teams? Are they just playthings? Toys for the super rich? Are they public service? Civic institutions?" "

I reiterate; he isn’t going to give the club the to the fans, but if he genuinely believes that it is the fans who should own the club he may be prepared to help that happen and that it would be an incredible legacy.

Hypothetically speaking say; Sir Mervyn King, the former governor of the Bank of England and other high profile individuals were prepared to be involved as trustees or in other ways. Any "initiative" would require a dedicated & committed group of fans working on a number of levels with expertise in a number of areas and the support of these high profile trustees. It would take many years, involve a range of creative large & small fund raising methods,  including sponsorship, grants, donation, pledges, crowd funding etc but most importantly would as I have said have to be done in concert with Randy Lerner. From a personal perspective I am one of those who love a challenge; some years ago after working all my life for others I decided at the late age of 46 that I wanted my own business. Today I employ over 100 people, own nearly 30 websites and catalogues businesses. It’s unlikely that such full ownership of AVFC would be realised in my lifetime, but it may be possible in my children’s and for what it’s worth as a fan over 50 years, I be would be happy to help in whatever way I could. But there are other fans who are much more expert in these matters than me.

This idea would obviously have no bearing on our current dire situation  and I know the majority here and elsewhere probably think any such quest is "foolish" “fantasy” “ridiculous”, “a waste of time” “pointless” and “impossible” etc etc and everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinion. But even they would surely accept that others  trying to make the “impossible” – happen maybe a worthwhile quest.

 

In this age (to quote RL) when major clubs are effectively the "playthings" and "Toys for the super rich"  fans feel increasingly disconnected. The idea of a "club" being owned by it's fans must therefore have a great appeal. Any major football club that ever manages to be majority owned by its supporters would have the goodwill and support of millions.

To quote an old saying; “Impossible only means that you haven’t found the solution yet.”

 

Edited January 24, 2013 by MikeMcKenna

[maqroll]

Ok...so....we rustle up 100,000 Villa fans who can put up 1000 pounds each, we can buy this peckerwood out.

Contingent upon canceling all existing debt owed...

Transfers and wages funded by:

Stadium naming rights (I know...)

Sponsorships

Increased gate receipts

Premier League TV money

Bringing in more private investment

 

Or am I still in Dreamland with this idea?

[Zatman]

very much, cant even get 40000 Villa fans into stadium never mind find 100000 to buy the club

[Eames]

Ok...so....we rustle up 100,000 Villa fans who can put up 1000 pounds each, we can buy this peckerwood out.

Contingent upon canceling all existing debt owed...

Transfers and wages funded by:

Stadium naming rights (I know...)

Sponsorships

Increased gate receipts

Premier League TV money

Bringing in more private investment

 

Or am I still in Dreamland with this idea?

You are very much in dreamland. 

 

The supporter buyout model failed miserably at non-league Ebbsfleet and would be an unmitigated catastrophe at Aston Villa. 

 

[AvfcTheObsession]

We can't get 42,000 willing to spend £30+ on the club, so you aren't going to get more than that figure to spend circa £1,000 on the club. As an example, I'm a ST holder who has spent £450 on that this year, I don't have a spare grand lying around now.

[villanwesty88]

I think there are fans out there who would be willing to put more than £1k into a scheme like this. Some wealthier fans or investors could stump up the majority with less wealthy fans still having a hefty amount of collective ownership. 

[rodders0223]

I think there are fans out there who would be willing to put more than £1k into a scheme like this. Some wealthier fans or investors could stump up the majority with less wealthy fans still having a hefty amount of collective ownership. 

Nobody 'invests' in a football club, nobody with any sense anyway.

You might aswell get your £1000 and chuck it down the drain.

 

[Richard]

Buy a player fund to Buy a club fund

[mwj]

I think there are fans out there who would be willing to put more than £1k into a scheme like this. Some wealthier fans or investors could stump up the majority with less wealthy fans still having a hefty amount of collective ownership. 

 

Nobody 'invests' in a football club, nobody with any sense anyway.

You might aswell get your £1000 and chuck it down the drain.

 

Seems to work in Germany pretty well

[MikeMcKenna]

I think there are fans out there who would be willing to put more than £1k into a scheme like this. Some wealthier fans or investors could stump up the majority with less wealthy fans still having a hefty amount of collective ownership. 

 

Nobody 'invests' in a football club, nobody with any sense anyway.

You might aswell get your £1000 and chuck it down the drain.

 

Like buying a couple of season tickets then? I like many here HAVE invested tens of £'000's in Aston Villa over the years and didn't see it as chucking money down the drain. If anything the actual fans are the perfect investors. 

As a contributor to this debate over two years ago I agreed then that it would be extremely difficult for fans to take over a PL club but I still don't think it is impossible. There would be a huge amount of goodwill (and even financial support) from the fans of other clubs (and further afield) should any set of fans ever try to break the stranglehold. 

Almost universally fans of PL clubs hate the current system that sees the clubs in the thrall of billionaire owners.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2015 by MikeMcKenna

[rodders0223]

I think there are fans out there who would be willing to put more than £1k into a scheme like this. Some wealthier fans or investors could stump up the majority with less wealthy fans still having a hefty amount of collective ownership. 

 

Nobody 'invests' in a football club, nobody with any sense anyway.

You might aswell get your £1000 and chuck it down the drain.

 

Like buying a couple of season tickets then? I like many here HAVE invested tens of £'000's in Aston Villa over the years and didn't see it as chucking money down the drain. If anything the actual fans are the perfect investors. 

As a contributor to this debate over two years ago I agreed then that it would be extremely difficult for fans to take over a PL club but I still don't think it is impossible. There would be a huge amount of goodwill (and even financial support) from the fans of other clubs (and further afield) should any set of fans ever try to break the stranglehold. 

Almost universally fans of PL clubs hate the current system that sees the clubs in the thrall of billionaire owners.

 

 

In what way did you invest, you mean in buying tickets and merchandise?

That is not an investment.

[maqroll]

I think there are fans out there who would be willing to put more than £1k into a scheme like this. Some wealthier fans or investors could stump up the majority with less wealthy fans still having a hefty amount of collective ownership. 

 

Nobody 'invests' in a football club, nobody with any sense anyway.

You might aswell get your £1000 and chuck it down the drain.

 

Like buying a couple of season tickets then? I like many here HAVE invested tens of £'000's in Aston Villa over the years and didn't see it as chucking money down the drain. If anything the actual fans are the perfect investors. 

As a contributor to this debate over two years ago I agreed then that it would be extremely difficult for fans to take over a PL club but I still don't think it is impossible. There would be a huge amount of goodwill (and even financial support) from the fans of other clubs (and further afield) should any set of fans ever try to break the stranglehold. 

Almost universally fans of PL clubs hate the current system that sees the clubs in the thrall of billionaire owners.

 

 

 

In what way did you invest, you mean in buying tickets and merchandise?

That is not an investment.

In a manner of speaking, it is. He's investing money into an operation that (on the rare Saturday) provides a return on said investment in the form of enjoyment.

And collectively, supporters who buy tickets and merchandise represent an investment of liquid cash straight into the coffers of the club.

[Grasshopper]

 If anything the actual fans are the perfect investors. 

As a contributor to this debate over two years ago I agreed then that it would be extremely difficult for fans to take over a PL club but I still don't think it is impossible. There would be a huge amount of goodwill (and even financial support) from the fans of other clubs (and further afield) should any set of fans ever try to break the stranglehold. 

Almost universally fans of PL clubs hate the current system that sees the clubs in the thrall of billionaire owners.

 

 

There-in lies the problem, The "Collective" (fans) would need to be equivelent in "Competing with the Billionaires"

[mwj]

TBH, it wouldn't need to be 100% ownership. It could be a German-style at least 51% fan ownership.

That would bring that price (~£80-100m) back into the realms of possibility (well not really buts its easier than £200m)

[dukes]

No thanks !We'd have nobody to moan at.

[PaulC]

Even if the market value of the club in the Championship is 40m, that doesn't mean Lerner has to sell if someone offers 40m.

 

The only things that will see Lerner sell, IMO, are:

 

* someone offers 150m or more (and it might even be 200m)

* the club goes into administration (basically: Lerner runs out of money)

* Villa burns through enough of Lerner's money that he's down to, say $10m (much lower than that and there's a dangerously high chance that he might have to actually get a job and work...), that he sells

 

After the sale of the Browns, taxes, the divorce, and family shares, Lerner's probably got $300m or so (call it 175m pounds) cash money to call his own. Even if Villa languish in the Championship to the point that the parachute payments run out, a deficit of 10m a year should still be able to see the club staying in the promotion mix. So sometime around 2030 is when Lerner runs out of money.

 

Can you wait?

I bet Lerner has far more than $300 mil being as he sold the Browns for a reported $1 billion. He's not going to waste any of his personal wealth on Villa now though.  

[villa4europe]

He's not going to waste his personal wealth on villa because there are rules saying he's not allowed

Whether or not he wants to is irrelevant

[PaulC]

Yes but the rules are pretty relaxed regarding that.