Doctor Who

[mjmooney]

Must admit, even though I never watch superhero movies, I was irritated when I found out they'd cast a black actor as Nick Fury. It would have been OK if he was only "Agent of SHIELD", but in the comics there was his whole backstory as a sergeant in WWII - where an important element was that there was a black G.I. (NOT Fury) in his squad. They can't now make a Sgt. Fury movie without radically altering the premise. 

[Chindie]

Just now, DK82 said:

My niece, gay btw, has watched since she was young and said she will watch no more. Her girlfriend has said the same. 

They're as daft as the others making the same decision. Women, gay people (or people of any other extraction) aren't exempted from making silly decisions about a change of a character, who's modus operandi is change, to a woman.

They're free to make it, it's still silly. What if it turns out she's a really good Dr Who?

[Dodgyknees]

1 minute ago, Chindie said:

They're as daft as the others making the same decision. Women, gay people (or people of any other extraction) aren't exempted from making silly decisions about a change of a character, who's modus operandi is change, to a woman.

They're free to make it, it's still silly. What if it turns out she's a really good Dr Who?

I hope it works out. Everybody is entitled to an opinion, not just the ones Mr Perfect doesn’t want to label.

(the new swipe for numbers on an IOS keyboard is nasty!)

Edited July 16, 2017 by DK82

[chrisp65]

Anybody angry at the modern PC nonsense might want to consider that Sydney Newman, the creator / initiator of Dr Who, the guy that came up with the original concept and commissioned it, he thought the Doctor would at some point regenerate into a woman.

He died 20 years ago, so it's taken quite a while.

Oh, and we should also remember it's just a kids' sci fi show.

[Chindie]

8 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Must admit, even though I never watch superhero movies, I was irritated when I found out they'd cast a black actor as Nick Fury. It would have been OK if he was only "Agent of SHIELD", but in the comics there was his whole backstory as a sergeant in WWII - where an important element was that there was a black G.I. (NOT Fury) in his squad. They can't now make a Sgt. Fury movie without radically altering the premise. 

Not for this thread, but in short...

The movie Nick Fury is based on the Ultimate universe Nick Fury, the Ultimate universe being a separate reboot universe of Marvel comics they came up with when they grew concerned you theoretically might need 40 years of knowledge to understand some characters completely at that point, so they made a new line of comics that took old characters and started again, modernising and changing a few things. That Nick Fury was pointedly drawn like Samuel L Jackson and hence the casting.

Different take on the same character in a different world. He actually has basically the same backstory of iirc. And the original one is still about in the 'normal' Marvel universe.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Chindie

[Dodgyknees]

I think it is wrong to call somebody pathetic on an opinion, wrong to judge that person, wrong to suggest it is sexism, chauvinism etc, especially when they have no idea what that person does OFF FORUM. Jon, I have no issue with you wanting to watch it, but how dare you talk down to others like that over an opinion. I have done that before and sometimes you just have to realise that PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT. No need to judge or put people in groups, and by the way - it is particularly wrong that you jumped on me for saying one thing and then jump on me for listening to people about it and offer g to give it a go. 

And I still hope it is a success, I still want it to work, but I would still have liked something new and fresh without the issues involved in making such a big change. I’d love to see a strong set of roles on TV for women, but this is not how to do it. Yes, for the past 3 years time lords have been able to change from male to women, but I would also like to see more done to create new and excitIng female characters on TV, in film, in comics.

1 - I hope it works

2 - I hope it inspires young girls to into acting or that women are equal to men.

3 - I hope it is the start of more acceptance for transgender and LBGT too

Edited July 16, 2017 by DK82

[Dodgyknees]

6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Anybody angry at the modern PC nonsense might want to consider that Sydney Newman, the creator / initiator of Dr Who, the guy that came up with the original concept and commissioned it, he thought the Doctor would at some point regenerate into a woman.

He died 20 years ago, so it's taken quite a while.

Oh, and we should also remember it's just a kids' sci fi show.

Shame he didn’t put something into the show when he could have done. 

[mjmooney]

5 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Not for this thread, but in short...

The movie Nick Fury is based on the Ultimate universe Nick Fury, the Ultimate universe being a separate reboot universe of Marvel comics they came up with when they grew concerned you theoretically might need 40 years of knowledge to understand some characters completely at that point, so they made a new line of comics that took old characters and started again, modernising and changing a few things. That Nick Fury was pointedly drawn like Samuel L Jackson and hence the casting.

Different take on the same character in a different world. He actually has basically the same backstory of iirc. And the original one is still about in the 'normal' Marvel universe.

I've always thought that reboots are cheating. 

[Xann]

6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Oh, and we should also remember it's just a kids' sci fi show.

Yes!

Having thought about it for 20 seconds yesterday, it should have been Grace Jones.

[Dodgyknees]

I think i5 8s more than a kids show tbh, but i’ll leave that for another day.

[Chindie]

9 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

I've always thought that reboots are cheating. 

Arguable. Comics do it a lot, alternative universe versions and so on. They did a whole event 2 years ago crossing over version of Spider-Man (Ultimate, Noir, 2099, Peter Porker, Spider-Gwen, Spider-Girl, Spider-UK, 60s TV Show Spider-Man... Etc etc). DC famously hit the reset button all the time. And tbf in the case of Fury they can't do a WW2 story anyway in the films as they are now without going off the comics deep end, it's set in the modern day. In the comics hes had some serum to prevent aging in both versions iirc. So you couldn't get a canon movie as you would like without it being a standalone which they won't do.

But fundamentally it isn't the same as Dr Who. Nick Fury, in whatever version, is an established character. He doesn't really change. Dr Who? The whole point is the character does change constantly. So why the hoo-ha over it being a woman? Its really hard not to look at it and think... It's a bit sexist.

[Dodgyknees]

Fury also lives in a world where it is possible to redesign DNA, so maybe he should become female. After all, it isn’t impossible.

Edited July 16, 2017 by DK82

[mjmooney]

I also wouldn't cast a black James Bond, for similarly nerdy reasons. By all means create a present day black British spy, but to me Bond is iconically a 1950s upper middle class, public school educated ex-Royal Navy officer. White almost by definition. 

Again, to hell with reboots. 

I agree about The Doctor, though. Regeneration being built into the plot, he/she can be anybody you like. 

[leemond2008]

3 minutes ago, Chindie said:

But fundamentally it isn't the same as Dr Who. Nick Fury, in whatever version, is an established character. He doesn't really change. Dr Who? The whole point is the character does change constantly. So why the hoo-ha over it being a woman? Its really hard not to look at it and think... It's a bit sexist.

I don't know, it just doesn't feel right to me, yes the character changes constantly but the Doctor has been a man for over half a century, some people will obviously feel that the Doctors character/s were just made to be a male, I think to label everyone who doesn't agree with it as 'shallow chauvinist a holes' who's opinion is 'pathetic' seems pretty pathetic in itself (Not aimed at you in anyway Chindie)

As I said earlier I haven't watched Dr Who for a good few years and even though I don't think I really agree with the character being played by a female it will more than likely have piqued my interest enough to watch it and see what I think, whether it ultimately changed my mind I will have to wait and see.

[Chindie]

8 minutes ago, DK82 said:

Fury also lives in a world where it is possible to redesign DNA, so maybe he should become female. After all, it isn’t impossible.

Eh... I know the point you're trying to make, it doesn't work though. If they want to write a story where they can justify Fury being a woman, cool. If they want to do a new version where he's a woman, cool (tbh I'm not sure they haven't). It's not like Dr Who where the canon is he changes.

Btw they have actually done this before now in the comics  Loki became female for ages with no fanfare and Thor is technically Jane Foster ATM. They wrote stories to make those work and they kinda did. With Dr Who, they made a character where the story is this can happen. So they've gone with a woman. Cool. Let's see if the stories are good and the characters well written.

[Chindie]

7 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

I also wouldn't cast a black James Bond, for similarly nerdy reasons. By all means create a present day black British spy, but to me Bond is iconically a 1950s upper middle class, public school educated ex-Royal Navy officer. White almost by definition. 

Again, to hell with reboots. 

I agree about The Doctor, though. Regeneration being built into the plot, he/she can be anybody you like. 

Agree with the final line.

The rest though... To the Film Thread!

[Dodgyknees]

14 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Eh... I know the point you're trying to make, it doesn't work though. If they want to write a story where they can justify Fury being a woman, cool. If they want to do a new version where he's a woman, cool (tbh I'm not sure they haven't). It's not like Dr Who where the canon is he changes.

Btw they have actually done this before now in the comics  Loki became female for ages with no fanfare and Thor is technically Jane Foster ATM. They wrote stories to make those work and they kinda did. With Dr Who, they made a character where the story is this can happen. So they've gone with a woman. Cool. Let's see if the stories are good and the characters well written.

I'm not sure Jane works, but that is my opinion. Still think we need definitive and strong female roles, not using an already-in-place role to push a female - when what would really benefit the world are roles created and written for women to give role models with fresh ideas - boys and girls both need strong role models, whatever sex. I just wish - tv, hollywood, comics, could be a bit more bloody creative.

One thing I agree on is that stories is important to a success. 

This ALL comes down to opinion in the end. Granted there are some pricks who hate a succesful wonen, but not all are like that. 

Edited July 16, 2017 by DK82

[terrytini]

Well I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

But..........Why not keep him a bloke as that's what he's always been - (yes yes an alien etc, but a bloke) - and invent a brand new sci fi character with a female lead ?

I mean. .I like loads of woman related stuff.......thought the female Starbuck in BSG was brilliant, Scully in X-Files, and enjoyed  loads of films with women leading. Currently watching an adequate series called Outlander.

I love a lot of female folk singers, I'm quite happy to listen to female historians, astronomers, economists, journalists.  I've a daughter who is a Staff Sergeant in the Army and another who is in the RAF.  My wife works full time and does all the DIY  - I stay at home and cook and clean.  I've got kids, grandkids, guys and gals, mates who are men, mates who are women.

I don't think I count as a reactionary sexist 1950's chauvinist pig.

I am a big fan of 'political correctness' too - a vital weapon using as it does the power of language and other norms to alter society for the better.

But Doctor Who is a (alien shape shifting) bloke.  Like Hitler is a bloke.  Like JFK is a bloke.  Like Hilary Clinton is a woman, like Elizabeth 1 was a woman.  Like Scully is a woman.

I would've been quite happy to watch a new, imaginative series with a strong woman lead - but not playing Superman, Basil Fawlty, or Zippy from rainbow, because they aren't women ! 

[limpid]

1 minute ago, terrytini said:

But Doctor Who is a (alien shape shifting) bloke.  Like Hitler is a bloke.  Like JFK is a bloke.  Like Hilary Clinton is a woman, like Elizabeth 1 was a woman.  Like Scully is a woman. 

I assume you don't watch it. Several series ago the doctor's nemesis (also a Time Lord) regenerated from a male to a female.

[Dodgyknees]

4 minutes ago, limpid said:

I assume you don't watch it. Several series ago the doctor's nemesis (also a Time Lord) regenerated from a male to a female.

Only the second to do so tbf, can't blame him for missing it (and the first was a comment made in an episode, so it wasn't seen). Although all within the past 3 years.

My friend has just had to explain to his son. His question? So can human men become women too?

He has explained that some men are born as women, and vice versa. He is 5 - but tbh, I think it is a good thing for kids to know. 

Edited July 16, 2017 by DK82