Genie Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 29 minutes ago, Dom_Wren said: These are the two candidates we (The US population) picked to battle it out to be leader of the free world? oh bugger. Don’t look to us (the UK population) for any advice on that front... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Dom_Wren said: These are the two candidates we (The US population) picked to battle it out to be leader of the free world? oh bugger. Agreed 100%. I think Biden ought to win by default but he looks out of touch, and frankly, hardly of sound mind. Neither of these men should be anywhere near leading a country. They should be in a home, telling their grandkids about the old days. I'd be fairly happy with a restriction preventing the head of the executive branch from being older than the state pension age tbh. Edited September 30, 2020 by Davkaus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancvillan Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Davkaus said: At this point, an "undecided" voter is a Trump supporter looking for justification. When you call a spade a spade on issues like Trump, you get people saying "Ah well, you don't win them over by being mean", well **** it. There's no winning them over at all. If anyone could have watched the last 4 years and thought "Well, I'm just not sure which of these is better", they're a **** stupid piece of shit and there's no point debating them. Day after day, lie after lie, scandal after scandal. Nobody can claim to not know what he stands for, or what kind of man they're considering lending their vote to. I've got less respect for fence sitters than I have for people who will at least admit they like Trump. I think that's an over-simplification. There are a decent number of people who haven't yet made the decision on whether to vote for Biden or not to vote at all. They are not a monolith - but are typically centre-right or right leaning and dislike the leader but traditionally identify / see themselves as Republicans / Conservatives. They come from small pockets such as oil and gas workers who have heard that Biden will ban fracking, people who due to religion or personal ethics disagree strongly with late-term abortion, people who think Biden is "just another career politician" - the list goes on and there are a lot of these pockets. A lot of the uncertainty is based on not knowing Biden rather than not knowing Trump. These aren't the kind of people you see at Trump / Pence boat parades with flags flying out of every available hole, they are less politically engaged (in terms of consumption of politics news - they are likely just starting to tune in now) so will decide later and make decisions based on things that are very personal to them. They are likely ex-Trump voters who the Dems could sway from just staying home, and if they bring their senate votes with them could make this a victory of three fronts. I think anyone who is interested in the Dems taking back all three branches does the cause no favours by writing off anyone who isn't a nailed on Biden voter as "stupid pieces of shit". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Davkaus Posted September 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted September 30, 2020 If you're willing to hold your nose and vote Trump due to party loyalty, I think you're part of the problem, and I don't have language strong enough to describe my feelings. The United States has never had an enemy as great a danger to its future as President Trump. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancvillan Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 14 minutes ago, Davkaus said: If you're willing to hold your nose and vote Trump due to party loyalty, I think you're part of the problem, and I don't have language strong enough to describe my feelings. The United States has never had an enemy as great a danger to its future as President Trump. It's not that black and white. Let me play out an example: A gas drilling worker who has a family with two kids who rely on their salary to pay the mortgage, bills, etc. They live in an historically red area so a lot of their day-to-day interactions are with people who have voted Republican for years / decades. As far as they know, a vote for Biden is a vote for the end of fracking, and thus the end of their job. Are you honestly saying you can't see why someone who spends very little time reading about politics (and zero time on Twitter), and who's livelihood hangs in the balance might just stay at home instead of voting for Biden? That's a very noble standard you set, but I think you're being incredibly unrealistic. If I were part of the DNC, those would be exactly the kind of voters that I'd be trying to reach as they could be swayed, and they could end up being (as white working class people once were) a part of the Democratic party for years to come. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted September 30, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted September 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Vancvillan said: It's not that black and white. Let me play out an example: A gas drilling worker who has a family with two kids who rely on their salary to pay the mortgage, bills, etc. They live in an historically red area so a lot of their day-to-day interactions are with people who have voted Republican for years / decades. As far as they know, a vote for Biden is a vote for the end of fracking, and thus the end of their job. Are you honestly saying you can't see why someone who spends very little time reading about politics (and zero time on Twitter), and who's livelihood hangs in the balance might just stay at home instead of voting for Biden? That's a very noble standard you set, but I think you're being incredibly unrealistic. If I were part of the DNC, those would be exactly the kind of voters that I'd be trying to reach as they could be swayed, and they could end up being (as white working class people once were) a part of the Democratic party for years to come. One of the main reasons the DNC rallied around Biden is because that blue collar worker is exactly the kind of voter he connects with. The miners from his home town of Scranton Pennsylvania for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancvillan Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 41 minutes ago, TheAuthority said: One of the main reasons the DNC rallied around Biden is because that blue collar worker is exactly the kind of voter he connects with. The miners from his home town of Scranton Pennsylvania for example. Yeah, he wasn't my top choice by any means but strategically it's hard to argue with for any number of reasons. That said, picking him was the first step - getting those blue collar workers outside of Scranton to understand that he's not all wealth taxes, green new deal and banning cows is the real challenge. I just don't think that telling people who aren't yet committed to voting for him that you don't have strong enough language to describe how shitty they are is both bad politically, and is also myopic if the end goal is any kind of unity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted October 1, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted October 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Vancvillan said: Yeah, he wasn't my top choice by any means but strategically it's hard to argue with for any number of reasons. That said, picking him was the first step - getting those blue collar workers outside of Scranton to understand that he's not all wealth taxes, green new deal and banning cows is the real challenge. I just don't think that telling people who aren't yet committed to voting for him that you don't have strong enough language to describe how shitty they are is both bad politically, and is also myopic if the end goal is any kind of unity. I guess you are leveling the last bit of your post at @Davkaus and not Biden - cause I don't remember Biden saying anything like that As for the rest of your post, in some ways I think you have fallen afoul of your own criticism. You are suggesting that Biden is associated with green new deals and banning cows in the minds of voters. Only people who are politically engaged, followed the primaries and read twitter would know that he has said some things to appease the more diverse populations more to the left in his party. The average person won't associate him with those things and he's smart enough to not bang on about them now he's in the middle of an election. Trump may shout about it but if Biden ignores it it's just more angry noise from Trump. The Dems have a more diverse party because America is becoming more diverse. I think even the more left folks including LGBTQ and minorities are determined to vote for Joe because Trump is so abhorrent - they don't need him to make token mention of them while debating Trump on the national stage. You may mention Bernie Bro's who maybe vocally anti-Biden and not even vote, but I've always thought of them as more as Libertarians crossed with Lefties. They are more likely to flit between Sanders and Trump depending on which 'made in a bedroom' conspiracy video the YouTube algorithm spits out at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancvillan Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 46 minutes ago, TheAuthority said: As for the rest of your post, in some ways I think you have fallen afoul of your own criticism. You are suggesting that Biden is associated with green new deals and banning cows in the minds of voters. Only people who are politically engaged, followed the primaries and read twitter would know that he has said some things to appease the more diverse populations more to the left in his party. The average person won't associate him with those things and he's smart enough to not bang on about them now he's in the middle of an election. Trump may shout about it but if Biden ignores it it's just more angry noise from Trump. I'm not suggesting that right-leaning low information independent voters live in a vacuum. I've been in enough environments with a bunch of people who don't care about politics but have heard things from that guy who listens to Rush Limbaugh. So they here bits and pieces and it kind of sticks. It doesn't take much to make it unstick in a lot of cases, but it takes something. I also don't think Biden has ever said that he supports the Green New Deal, a wealth tax or (more obviously) banning cows. My point is that while there is some seed of fact in a claim that he has, right wing media just lie and blow it up (Rush being on of many). If you live in a red zone, you'll hear this second hand whether you want to or not, and the brain worm finds a home. What I'm saying is that there are plenty of people who have heard that kind of nonsense but can be swayed back - and that's a demographic worth fighting for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post LondonLax Posted October 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 1, 2020 It’s easy to forget how different the bubbles are that we all occupy. What seems obvious to users on this message board is on a different universe to many people out there. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 3 hours ago, LondonLax said: It’s easy to forget how different the bubbles are that we all occupy. What seems obvious to users on this message board is on a different universe to many people out there. I posted a video screenshot yesterday about how Trump obliterated Biden in the debate. The comments were all 100% backing Trump, best President in the history of the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart_75 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 6 hours ago, Genie said: I posted a video screenshot yesterday about how Trump obliterated Biden in the debate. The comments were all 100% backing Trump, best President in the history of the US. I'm curious to know what Trump has done in these last 4 years that makes them think he's the best Pres they've ever had. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, stuart_75 said: I'm curious to know what Trump has done in these last 4 years that makes them think he's the best Pres they've ever had. Made all the people they hate mad, and appointed a lot of conservative judges. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 16 hours ago, Davkaus said: If you're willing to hold your nose and vote Trump due to party loyalty, I think you're part of the problem, and I don't have language strong enough to describe my feelings. The United States has never had an enemy as great a danger to its future as President Trump. Biden - 1994 crime bill - Glass-Steagall - Patriot act - Iraq war - College student debt peonage and there's much, much more from the Senator from Delaware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bannedfromHandV Posted October 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 1, 2020 26 minutes ago, villakram said: Biden - 1994 crime bill - Glass-Steagall - Patriot act - Iraq war - College student debt peonage and there's much, much more from the Senator from Delaware. But the alternative is a compulsive liar who is borderline mentally retarded. I don’t know how anyone can compare the two people and have Trump come out on top, in fact, I’d honestly struggle to think of anyone who could be a worse human being than Donald f*****g Trump and that includes your Hitlers and the like. He is the total embodiment of everything that is wrong with the world, it just blows my mind people can’t or won’t see this. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 not sure he's on the same page as Hitler, but I agree with your sentiment. If he somehow wins, There will be a second civil war, or close to it. I can't think of any big decision he has got right. People are going to look at the declaration of Independence All men are equal. That's not how Trump is playing it. It'll be his taxes that does for him, can't be owing money to China and Russia, then claim to be working only for the citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancvillan Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 13 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: But the alternative is a compulsive liar who is borderline mentally retarded. I don’t know how anyone can compare the two people and have Trump come out on top, in fact, I’d honestly struggle to think of anyone who could be a worse human being than Donald f*****g Trump and that includes your Hitlers and the like. He is the total embodiment of everything that is wrong with the world, it just blows my mind people can’t or won’t see this. Let's put aside the boat people, the Proud Boys, the Boogaloo Boys, the malitias, etc. They're not for turning in this election. Instead look at either conservative independants or right-leaning low information voters. There are two things here: 1. Party vs leader - as an example, for some people of faith the Democrats kill millions of babies per year, so voting for someone they see as unsavoury (but who does a small percentage of the bad things he says he might do) is the least of two bad options. 2. You know he's a compulsive liar, but you get your news from specific places. Hold on the argument of how that's a valid decision for you to do that - we'll get there. For #1 you really have to get into a personal conversation to take that forward if the goal is a Dem vote. For #2 let's play this out... Democrats are unlikely to fact check something bad about Trump if it comes from a trusted source. Trusted source could be NYT, Al Jazeera, CNN, MSNBC, The Intercept - they all fall somewhere on a line of how good their sourcing standards are and how much editorial vs reporting content they run. Let's say some of them aren't perfect and make mistakes, and have run negative stories on Trump that turn out not be true. Someone else gets their stories from different sources - let's ignore Fox / OAN / etc and go with say National Review. Their readers will have seen some negative Trump stories, but more of a focus on negative stories on the Dems (which often do not made it to the lead sections of NYT, etc - and you could make a fair argument it's because they are not as important as other stories running), as well as a highlighting of whenever NYT / AJ / CNN / etc got it wrong. I'd bet you'd be more likely to fact check a bad story about Biden (or another politician you support) if it came from what you perceived as a conservative news source - people who on the Rep's side are the same but in reverse. So what we have are people who mentally check out when they see a story from what they perceive as an "enemy" source about their candidate. The answer isn't simple - but if the end goal is to reach an understanding it has to involve keeping an open mind to listening to people who think differently. I'm not saying the type of people who have stars and stripes facial tattoos and hate brown people - but there are a lot of moderate-ish people who once you talk to them in person and treat them with respect, are willing to listen. I would even go as far to say that they are willing to change their mind over time. I personally think that the wedge of independent / undecided voters are worth a lot of time, energy and patience right now. As I've said before - if they bring their senate votes with them, this could be one of the most consequential elections of the last 40 years, because you can bet your ass that McConnell won't let the Dems get anything done if he's still holding the gavel in 2021. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said: But the alternative is a compulsive liar who is borderline mentally retarded. I don’t know how anyone can compare the two people and have Trump come out on top, in fact, I’d honestly struggle to think of anyone who could be a worse human being than Donald f*****g Trump and that includes your Hitlers and the like. He is the total embodiment of everything that is wrong with the world, it just blows my mind people can’t or won’t see this. Neo-liberalism has a lot to answer for, please don't forget that amongst the current distractions. The point was regarding the holding of ones nose, and how odorous Biden quite clearly is. In terms of damage to society and the world, we can clearly see the results of decisions Biden has made (incredible economic inequality, >$1T un-dischargeable student debt, the largest prison population on the planet, large scale surveillance, corporate tax loopholes left&right, and large mounds of dead bodies/destroyed societies, though not American for the most part). The social fissures, well one could also point to the inequality at the heart of neo-lib politics, but apparently it's rude to point this out. Better to just hang that all around Trump's neck. It's much easier to sleep well that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancvillan Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 @villakram question because I'm genuinely interested - and I recognize it's a tough one since there'll be no perfect or maybe even good answer for you. If you had to pick the next president from the field of challengers from both the Dems and Reps in the last four years (so you can have HRC - haha), who would you choose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Here are the betting odds on the election. Can you spot where the debate happened 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts